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Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us...
[Re: Tom]
#101338
08/05/08 04:36 PM
08/05/08 04:36 PM
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Only on the cross, confronted by withdrawal of His Father's presence in revulsion against sin, did the stark break become clear. I don't think this part works. God did not withdraw His presence from Christ! To the contrary, God drew near to Christ: In that thick darkness God's presence was hidden. He makes darkness His pavilion, and conceals His glory from human eyes. God and His holy angels were beside the cross. The Father was with His Son. (DA 753) The statement that "He makes darkness His pavilion" is a reverence to Psalm 18. 4The sorrows of death compassed me, and the floods of ungodly men made me afraid.
5The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.
6In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried unto my God: he heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry came before him, even into his ears.
7Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth.
8There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.
9He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet.
10And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.
11He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies. This is a little known psalm of the cross. He poetically depicts God's leaving heaven to be with His Son. The Desire of Ages passage cited gives some more detail. Many people think that God abandoned Christ, but He didn't. God was right there with Christ. The following speaks of Christ's experience: It was not the dread of death that weighed upon Him. It was not the pain and ignominy of the cross that caused His inexpressible agony. Christ was the prince of sufferers; but His suffering was from a sense of the malignity of sin, a knowledge that through familiarity with evil, man had become blinded to its enormity. Christ saw how deep is the hold of sin upon the human heart, how few would be willing to break from its power. He knew that without help from God, humanity must perish, and He saw multitudes perishing within reach of abundant help. (DA 752) Christ's experience is similar to the wickeds' in that in neither case does God forsake either the One or the other. It is the "sense of sin" that causes one to *feel* abandoned by God. Sin causes us to believe things that aren't true, which is part of what makes it lethal. The difference between Christ and the wicked is that Christ knew His Father's true character, and was able to work out by faith alone, apart from His senses, His feelings, all that was happening around Him, what was really happening. By faith, He knew God had *not* abandoned Him, and He died triumphantly, committing Himself to God. The wicked, not knowing God, will simply be overwhelmed by sin. I think Rosangela found the source where EGW says that Christs connection to the Father was (for the only time ever, and never again) 'sundered' so there was a complete seperation as Christ died at the cross...I will check if I can find it again or if Rosangela can repost it... Main Entry: sun·der Pronunciation: \ˈsən-dər\ Function: verb Inflected Form(s): sun·dered; sun·der·ing \-d(ə-)riŋ\ Etymology: Middle English, from Old English gesundrian, syndrian; akin to Old High German suntarōn to sunder, Old English sundor apart, Latin sine without, Sanskrit sanutar away Date: before 12th century transitive verb : to break apart or in two : separate by or as if by violence or by intervening time or space intransitive verb : to become parted, disunited, or severed synonyms see separate
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Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us...
[Re: Rick H]
#101339
08/05/08 04:42 PM
08/05/08 04:42 PM
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Here it is...... Jesus did not die separated from God. In order for two people to be separated, they have to be separated. But God was with His Son at the cross. No, two people may be physically together but separated from each other. In the final judgment the wicked will be in God's presence but totally separated from Him. The Captain of our salvation was perfected through suffering. His soul was made an offering for sin. It was necessary for the awful darkness to gather about His soul because of the withdrawal of the Father's love and favor; for He was standing in the sinner's place, and this darkness every sinner must experience. The righteous One must suffer the condemnation and wrath of God, not in vindictiveness; for the heart of God yearned with greatest sorrow when His Son, the guiltless, was suffering the penalty of sin. This sundering of the divine powers will never again occur throughout the eternal ages (MS 93, 1899).
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Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us...
[Re: asygo]
#101340
08/05/08 04:52 PM
08/05/08 04:52 PM
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Actually, it would have been closer to what I was thinking if I had said that the death of the wicked is dependent on God's nature. Things are the way they are because God is the way He is. I agree with this. It's a good thing God is the way He is. Can God keep someone alive who has irrevocably chosen to separate from Him? Yes, He can. He has done it with Satan.
The DA quote cited says: Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. So God cannot leave the sinner to reap the full result of his sin, or the sinner dies. Had God done that, His actions, which would have been a passive action, would have been misunderstood as an active action, and His character would have been misunderstood. It would have appeared that God was the monster Satan was accusing him of being, and that God got rid of Satan to protect Himself, because Satan was right in his accusations. So God has allowed things to play out so that His character can be seen in contrast to Satan, as well as the principles of His government in contrast to the principles of Satan's government. So, yes, God can keep someone alive by not leaving them to reap the result of their choice. However, God cannot do that indefinitely, as this would be contrary to His nature. Why? At least two reasons come to mind. 1.Sin is misery, and it is contrary to God's character to have beings be miserable for no purpose. 2.If God has created us with free will, and we choose sin, then God needs to respect our choice and let us die, which is the inevitable result of sin. Let's say that sinners, if left to themselves, will kill each other. How could God prevent them from dying off? He could quarantine everyone from everyone else. So, you have a universe full of sinners who are separated from each other, and God keeps alive even if they are separated from Him. Thus, everyone stays alive. Your comments here reminded me of something I heard from A. Graham Maxwell. Fortunately I was able to find it (living in the internet age has its plusses): Interviewer:Is there any way in which God could have made it so that everybody could have had free choice, free to go their own way, and free to disobey him and go on living?
Maxwell:Yes.
Interviewer:What would have happened?
Maxwell:The Universe would have eventually become a vast penitentiary, with everybody in solitary confinement so as not to bother anybody else, and God and the angels would have become prison wardens. So I see God appealing to Universe: “Look, I could keep you alive forever. I kept the Devil alive all these years: I could, I could. But I refuse to be a prison warden, and I refuse to ask all you to become prison guards.”
And we say, that’s all right. We agree that the only alternative is to let these people reap the consequences—and you know what’s going to happen. You say, how do we know? Go to Gethsemane, go to the cross: that’s what’s going to happen. They will die. As to whether the scenario is possible, I addressed that above (the two points above). The prison scenario certainly doesn't seem in harmony with God's character, does it? Have you read "The Great Divorce" by C. S. Lewis?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us...
[Re: scott]
#101341
08/05/08 07:34 PM
08/05/08 07:34 PM
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Scott, I thought we might be saying the same thing too.
Robert Wieland defines faith as "a heart appreciation of the love of God, especially as revealed on the cross."
How do you like that one? I love it! Since the cross is God's ultimate revelation of love it make sense that our appreciation for the cross would cause us to love Him and long to be like Him. The law written on the heart! scott But you are both aware, are you not, that Elder Wieland also holds to the legal requirement for forgiveness that Christ fulfilled, joining the church position on one of its correct points, as Richard showed...aside from demonstrating agape. As for George Reid's article, it is clearly necessary for Christ to have felt rejected of God and man, to have had no hope of rising from the dead: the matter of trusting memory of his Father's presence in his own, previous experience isn't disputed - he held on to his faith. The actuality of God removing his presence from his Son, their divine $ Spirit from Jesus' divine & human consciousness, doesn't prevent God being heart broken himself and concerned by Jesus' spiritual suffering. Course God can dwell and hide in darkness, but Jesus didn't feel him there, even when he commended his breath to him: tasting death for everyman requires suffering separation till death. God coming close in divine concern doesn't change Jesus' experience of legal and necessary separation till death. Since you don't agree, despite it being in the Bible and SOP, that's your problem, not ours: the whole picture of redeeming us from the law's curse must be included, not just the nice sounding bits. God does punish sin, we being saved from his wrath by his Son suffering it.
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Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us...
[Re: Tom]
#101342
08/05/08 07:43 PM
08/05/08 07:43 PM
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SDA Active Member 2023
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So, yes, God can keep someone alive by not leaving them to reap the result of their choice. However, God cannot do that indefinitely, as this would be contrary to His nature. That's why I prefaced my scenario the way I did. We agree that God's actions are determined by His nature/character. But let's suspend that for a moment and consider what I'm asking: Is God able to keep the sinner alive in spite of his sin? IOW, was GM right that his "prison warden" scenario was a possibility? My answer is Yes, because as GM pointed out, He has done it with Satan all these years. What's your answer? No, I've never come across "The Great Divorce" by Lewis.
By God's grace, Arnold
1 John 5:11-13 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us...
[Re: Rick H]
#101343
08/05/08 07:54 PM
08/05/08 07:54 PM
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SDA Active Member 2023
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The Captain of our salvation was perfected through suffering. His soul was made an offering for sin. It was necessary for the awful darkness to gather about His soul because of the withdrawal of the Father's love and favor; for He was standing in the sinner's place, and this darkness every sinner must experience. The righteous One must suffer the condemnation and wrath of God, not in vindictiveness; for the heart of God yearned with greatest sorrow when His Son, the guiltless, was suffering the penalty of sin. This sundering of the divine powers will never again occur throughout the eternal ages (MS 93, 1899). That's exactly how I see the final eradication of sin playing out. God is near the sinner, sorrowing over him, as he suffers the inevitable consequences of his choice. It will probably be something like how David felt after Absalom died.
By God's grace, Arnold
1 John 5:11-13 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us...
[Re: asygo]
#101344
08/05/08 08:15 PM
08/05/08 08:15 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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But you are both aware, are you not, that Elder Wieland also holds to the legal requirement for forgiveness that Christ fulfilled, joining the church position on one of its correct points, as Richard showed...aside from demonstrating agape. I doubt Scott is. I'm aware of Elder Wieland's thoughts on this. I'm spoken to him quite a bit about it. As for George Reid's article, it is clearly necessary for Christ to have felt rejected of God and man, to have had no hope of rising from the dead: the matter of trusting memory of his Father's presence in his own, previous experience isn't disputed - he held on to his faith. The actuality of God removing his presence from his Son, their divine $ Spirit from Jesus' divine & human consciousness, doesn't prevent God being heart broken himself and concerned by Jesus' spiritual suffering. Course God can dwell and hide in darkness, but Jesus didn't feel him there, even when he commended his breath to him: tasting death for everyman requires suffering separation till death. God coming close in divine concern doesn't change Jesus' experience of legal and necessary separation till death.
Since you don't agree, despite it being in the Bible and SOP, that's your problem, not ours: the whole picture of redeeming us from the law's curse must be included, not just the nice sounding bits. God does punish sin, we being saved from his wrath by his Son suffering it. Colin, you state this is "my problem" and not yours, and claim your idea is both in the Bible and in the SOP, yet you present nothing from either source, whereas I did, from both.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us...
[Re: Tom]
#101345
08/05/08 08:29 PM
08/05/08 08:29 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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That's why I prefaced my scenario the way I did. We agree that God's actions are determined by His nature/character.
But let's suspend that for a moment and consider what I'm asking: Is God able to keep the sinner alive in spite of his sin? IOW, was GM right that his "prison warden" scenario was a possibility?
My answer is Yes, because as GM pointed out, He has done it with Satan all these years. What's your answer? I'd say it's "possible" in the sense that God could have created us without free will, in the sense that God is physically able to do such a thing. But not possible in the sense of being something He might actually do. No, I've never come across "The Great Divorce" by Lewis. Lewis presents a scenario where people keep moving further and further away from one another, because they can't stand one another. There are buses which go to heaven, which they can visit, but they hate it there. God is near the sinner, sorrowing over him, as he suffers the inevitable consequences of his choice. It will probably be something like how David felt after Absalom died. Amen! I see it this way too. Something like how David felt, but much more profound, and much more profound as God's love for us is greater than David's love was for Absalom. O my son Absalom, my son, my son Absalom! Would I had died instead of you, O Absalom, my son, my son!
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us...
[Re: Tom]
#101346
08/05/08 09:03 PM
08/05/08 09:03 PM
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I'd say it's "possible" in the sense that God could have created us without free will, in the sense that God is physically able to do such a thing. But not possible in the sense of being something He might actually do. We agree, then. God can keep us safe from sin by isolating all sinners. God can do it, but will not. Instead, what God has chosen to do to keep us safe from sin is to extinguish sin, and to His great sorrow, all who foolishly choose to hold on to that sin. In that sense, the extermination of sinners is based on God's actions - His choice to eliminate rather than isolate. God is near the sinner, sorrowing over him, as he suffers the inevitable consequences of his choice. It will probably be something like how David felt after Absalom died. Amen! I see it this way too. Something like how David felt, but much more profound, and much more profound as God's love for us is greater than David's love was for Absalom. O my son Absalom, my son, my son Absalom! Would I had died instead of you, O Absalom, my son, my son! And God, seeing how all this was going to turn out, did die for us. Now the question is, will we live for Him?
By God's grace, Arnold
1 John 5:11-13 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us...
[Re: asygo]
#101347
08/05/08 09:58 PM
08/05/08 09:58 PM
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Lawrence, Kansas
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We agree, then. God can keep us safe from sin by isolating all sinners. God can do it, but will not.
Instead, what God has chosen to do to keep us safe from sin is to extinguish sin, and to His great sorrow, all who foolishly choose to hold on to that sin. In that sense, the extermination of sinners is based on God's actions - His choice to eliminate rather than isolate. I would say the extermination of sinners is based on God's choice to allow His creatures to exercise free will. God gives them what they choose. I agree with the "to His great sorrow" sentiment, and am glad you see it this way. I think that's very important to see.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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