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How could Jesus have failed?
#100224
06/26/08 03:21 AM
06/26/08 03:21 AM
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OP
SDA
Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,638
California, USA
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Angelic perfection failed in heaven. Human perfection failed in Eden, the paradise of bliss. (5 SDABC 1132) That being the case, I don't see why people claim that Jesus could not have failed if He had Adam's Eden perfection. Neither angelic nor human perfection is a guarantee against sin.
Last edited by asygo; 07/04/08 03:52 AM. Reason: moved to new thread from Can the Law save us?
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: How could Jesus have failed?
[Re: asygo]
#100230
06/26/08 04:05 AM
06/26/08 04:05 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
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Lawrence, Kansas
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Jesus had no doubts or misunderstandings regarding God's character. If Christ did not have Adam's fallen nature, how would He have failed?
It doesn't seem like your point is taking the context of what you quoted into consideration.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: How could Jesus have failed?
[Re: Tom]
#100272
06/27/08 01:29 AM
06/27/08 01:29 AM
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SDA
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Posts: 5,638
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Jesus had no doubts or misunderstandings regarding God's character. If Christ did not have Adam's fallen nature, how would He have failed? Is it even possible to fail if one does not have doubts or misunderstandings regarding God's character? If anyone has no doubts or misunderstandings regarding God's character, he will not fail, regardless of the condition of his flesh. Don't you agree? I agree with that statement. That's why I don't see the condition of Christ's to be so critical in terms of His failure or success. Furthermore, was Adam created with doubts or misunderstandings regarding God's character? I don't think so. Yet, he somehow managed to fail anyway. Again, the point is that neither angelic nor human perfection is a foolproof guard against sin. The condition of our flesh is not the determining factor; our complete and continuous congruence with God's character is.
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: How could Jesus have failed?
[Re: asygo]
#100276
06/27/08 02:36 AM
06/27/08 02:36 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Jesus had no doubts or misunderstandings regarding God's character. If Christ did not have Adam's fallen nature, how would He have failed?
Is it even possible to fail if one does not have doubts or misunderstandings regarding God's character? Yes. Jesus is proof of this, because He did not have doubts or misunderstanding regarding God's character, and He could have failed). If anyone has no doubts or misunderstandings regarding God's character, he will not fail, regardless of the condition of his flesh. Don't you agree? No. Again, Christ disproves this idea. EGW says that Christ "could have sinned, He could have fallen." I agree with that statement. That's why I don't see the condition of Christ's to be so critical in terms of His failure or success. Because that's what made it possible for Him to be tempted as we are; it made it possible for a temptation to be attractive to Him. Furthermore, was Adam created with doubts or misunderstandings regarding God's character? I don't think so. Yet, he somehow managed to fail anyway. Clearly Adam did not understand God's character in any way that could be comparable to Christ. That's very easy to see. Just look at how he responded when Eve brought him the forbidden fruit to eat. Again, the point is that neither angelic nor human perfection is a foolproof guard against sin. The condition of our flesh is not the determining factor; our complete and continuous congruence with God's character is. I wasn't speaking of our flesh at all. I was pointing out the necessity of the cross, in answer to what MM was asking. The discussion of our flesh just came up because of your comment.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: How could Jesus have failed?
[Re: Tom]
#100385
07/01/08 02:45 AM
07/01/08 02:45 AM
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OP
SDA
Active Member 2023
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,638
California, USA
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Jesus had no doubts or misunderstandings regarding God's character. If Christ did not have Adam's fallen nature, how would He have failed?
Is it even possible to fail if one does not have doubts or misunderstandings regarding God's character? Yes. Jesus is proof of this, because He did not have doubts or misunderstanding regarding God's character, and He could have failed). Sin is a function of doubting and/or misunderstanding God, NOT fallen flesh. I thought you knew that well. Here's what you wrote elsewhere: Let's discuss how it is that Christ saves us from sin. How is it that sin holds its power over us? It's by deception. Christ came to reveal the truth, which sets us free. Sin originated in self-seeking. Lucifer, the covering cherub, desired to be first in heaven. He sought to gain control of heavenly beings, to draw them away from their Creator, and to win their homage to himself. Therefore he misrepresented God,
attributing to Him the desire for self-exaltation. With his own evil characteristics he sought to invest the loving Creator. Thus he deceived angels. Thus he deceived men. He led them to doubt the word of God, and to distrust His goodness. Because God is a God of justice and terrible majesty, Satan caused them to look upon Him as severe and unforgiving. Thus he drew men to join him in rebellion against God, and the night of woe settled down upon the world.
The earth was dark through misapprehension of God. That the gloomy shadows might be lightened, that the world might be brought back to God, Satan's deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it known. Upon the world's dark night the Sun of Righteousness must rise, "with healing in His wings." Mal. 4:2. (DA 21, 22) This ties into the same theme mentioned earlier, that Jesus Christ came to reveal the Father. Here we see spelled out why. It was to manifest His character in contrast to the character of Satan. (M)an was deceived; his mind was darkened by Satan's sophistry. The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God's love. By beholding His character he might be drawn back to God.(DA 762) If you are right on this point, and I believe you are, then Christ's flesh was not the key Satan needed for victory. His only hope to overthrow Jesus was to deceive Him about God's character. And his insinuations regarding the apparent contradiction between Christ's woeful condition in the wilderness and His claim to be the Son of God bear this out. In short, as if I ever post anything short, victory/failure do not hinge on the sinlessness/sinfulness of human nature. Rather, victory or failure is determined by how well we know God. And we both agree that Jesus knew God very well. And if we know God well, we have eternal life, regardless of our flesh.
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: How could Jesus have failed?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#100393
07/01/08 02:45 PM
07/01/08 02:45 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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"How is it that sin holds its power over us? It's by deception."
If you are right on this point, and I believe you are, then Christ's flesh was not the key Satan needed for victory. His only hope to overthrow Jesus was to deceive Him about God's character. And his insinuations regarding the apparent contradiction between Christ's woeful condition in the wilderness and His claim to be the Son of God bear this out.
In short, as if I ever post anything short, victory/failure do not hinge on the sinlessness/sinfulness of human nature. Rather, victory or failure is determined by how well we know God. And we both agree that Jesus knew God very well. And if we know God well, we have eternal life, regardless of our flesh. I agree that the key to Christ's victory was His mind, incorporating His faith, His will, His knowledge of the Father (not just mental, but as in conocer if you know Spanish) and so forth. Clearly since I believe He took our flesh, I could not be believe the key to His victory was the flesh. I was responding to your point regarding the flesh that, given that Christ had a deep and correct understanding of God, how would have failed had He not taken our flesh? Indeed, I don't see how He could have been tempted in any real sense, not tempted as we are, in the sense that He had to do something difficult. Specifically, the most difficult part of temptation is the denial of self. How would this apply to Christ's case? What self would there have been to deny? How could His will have been different than His Father's? if we know God well, we have eternal life, regardless of our flesh. I completely agree with this.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: How could Jesus have failed?
[Re: Tom]
#100542
07/04/08 03:51 PM
07/04/08 03:51 PM
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OP
SDA
Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,638
California, USA
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I agree that the key to Christ's victory was His mind, incorporating His faith, His will, His knowledge of the Father (not just mental, but as in conocer if you know Spanish) and so forth. Clearly since I believe He took our flesh, I could not be believe the key to His victory was the flesh. The corrollary to this, which I have been trying to get across for quite some time now, is that the key to Christ's failure was also His mind. Satan's attack must be focused on beclouding Christ's mind and, like he did with the perfect pair in Eden, get Jesus to doubt God's love, doubt God's word, and disobey God's command. Had any of this happened, it would not have happened in His flesh, but in His mind. I will address your other comments next time. And yes, I know enough Spanish to distinguish between conocer and saber.
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: How could Jesus have failed?
[Re: asygo]
#100544
07/04/08 03:57 PM
07/04/08 03:57 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I agree that the key to Christ's failure would have been in His mind as well. I just don't see how He could have failed had He taken sinless flesh. How would He have been tempted? (n such a way that He could give in to it)
You could ask, how could Adam have been tempted, since he had sinless flesh, but Adam didn't have the knowledge of God (conocer) that Jesus had.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: How could Jesus have failed?
[Re: Tom]
#100570
07/04/08 09:16 PM
07/04/08 09:16 PM
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OP
SDA
Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,638
California, USA
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I agree that the key to Christ's failure would have been in His mind as well. I just don't see how He could have failed had He taken sinless flesh. He could have failed because flesh is not the key; the mind is. Even with sinless flesh, the mind is still the key. As the SOP quote that started this said, angelic perfection failed in Heaven and human perfection failed in Eden. Sinlessness is no guarantee against sinfulness. Only a close relationship with God can do that. You could ask, how could Adam have been tempted, since he had sinless flesh, but Adam didn't have the knowledge of God (conocer) that Jesus had. I wouldn't ask because flesh, sinless or sinful, neither causes nor prevents sin. How would He have been tempted? (n such a way that He could give in to it) I will address that next time, along with your previous post.
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Can the Law save us?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#100588
07/05/08 08:32 PM
07/05/08 08:32 PM
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There would have been far greater problems than this. God swore by Himself that Christ would succeed.
The above quote was taken from a post in another topic, which reminded me of this topic, thus my response here, which is that this means that Christ couldn't fail, as God swore by Himself that Christ would succeed, meaning that Christ wouldn't, and thus, couldn't fail.
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