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Re: 7 - The Nature Of Man
[Re: Azenilto]
#103529
10/11/08 06:51 PM
10/11/08 06:51 PM
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[Continued from previous frame]
Nothing Also by the Middle of Human History
We’ve seen how at the beginning of the history and formation of man no “immortal soul” appears as an constitutive element of the nature of the being created “in God’s image and likeness”. What God’s Word reveals to us is that God formed man from the dust, breathed in his nostrils the “breath of life”, and man BECAME a “living soul”. It doesn’t say that he RECEIVED a soul of any type.
Reinforcing the truth that the breath of life of man and animals is the same, we also have this important text in Gen. 1:30:
“And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.”
The expression “wherein there is life” is not very accurate according to the original. It should read, “where there is living soul [nephesh hayyah], which is confirmed by the LXX, that has it as psychen zoes and the Latin Vulgata, which brings anima vivens, exactly the same language found in Gen. 2:7.
We will also see how in the description of one of the last acts of the human history drama—the resurrection of the dead—nothing is said regarding immortal souls coming from wherever to return to a body. It’s strange that in the detailed description of Apostle Paul, both in 1 Thessalonians 4:13ff and 1 Corinthians 15, as well as in Christ’s own teaching regarding it (as in John 5:25-30) there never appears this element and no hint of an “immortal soul” is perceived.
However, what does the Bible present between the beginning and the end, regarding the theme of the resurrection? Let’s us see a very significant passage of the prophet Ezekiel who, under inspiration, describes an event of resurrection—the famous vision of the valley of dried bones. Even though having a symbolic meaning, it reports something very concrete regarding man’s formation:
“The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones, and caused me to pass by them round about:, and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry. And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest. Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered, them above: but there was no breath in them. Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four, winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding, great army. Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves. -- Eze. 37:1-12”.
It’s important to compare different translations of the text to remove any doubt of meaning of terms. The Holy Scriptures According to the Masoretic Text, by the Jewish Publication Society of America, as well as the New International Version speak of “breath”, instead of “spirit”, regarding the return of the last component to transmit life to the set of “very dry” bones, which are attached to nerves, muscles, skin. Finally, the receiving of that “breath” is the final touch to transform that miraculous reconstitution in human beings, living and active.
The Brazilian version of the Today’s English Version, by the Bible Society of Brazil also speaks of breath and even, “mortal man, prophesize to the wind . . . to blow on these dead bodies so that they come back to life”. A footnote explains: “Wind: the same Hebrew word can have the meaning of spirit, or breath, or respiration or wind”. This Hebrew word is ruach, the same found in Eccl. 12:7—“Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”
To reinforce even more that conception of the restoration of the dead ones to life, we have these words in the text transcribed from prophet Ezekiel:
“I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves.”
Thus, the basic elements that form this army under the command of the Lord proceed from the sepulchers, with no mention to souls coming from wherever in the Universe. The breath is added to the reconstituted components of flesh and bones, and life is restored. Once more we can realize—no mention to any immortal soul being reintegrated to the beings so that they live.
[To be continued]
A. G. Brito
Sola Scriptura Ministry
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Re: 7 - The Nature Of Man
[Re: Azenilto]
#103530
10/11/08 06:55 PM
10/11/08 06:55 PM
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[Continued from previous frame]
Why, if we asked someone who believe in the immortality of the soul to describe how a resurrection would occur, no doubt the component “immortal soul” would be even the most important of all to transmit life to who was dead. However, nowhere in the Scriptures, be it the beginning, the middle or the end of the Bible report, there is such a thing.
That is why when Jesus talked to the sisters of Lazarus, sympathizing with them for the loss of their brother, He didn’t give them consolation commenting about his being in the glory, as is the popular belief. The emphasis of their conversation was the FUTURE resurrection of the dead throughout chapter 11 of John. Thus, Jesus said to leave no doubt:
“I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live.”
Once more we see the emphasis—not on life eternal depending on any immaterial element in man, but in believing in Christ to resurrect, for only so “though he were dead, yet shall he live”.
[We have another questionnaire—“10 Questions to Those Who Believe in the Immortality of the Soul”—that can be found above (page 1)].
Nothing at the End of Human History
If nothing appears in the Scriptures indicating the inclusion of an “immortal soul” in the creation of man, what to say of the end? The Bible presents the final encounter of Christ with His redeemed ones, and Paul gives details as how the resurrection of the dead will be. Neither in the words of Christ, nor in the detailed explanations of Paul on this final encounter of Christ and the saved ones there appears the least hint of immortal souls coming from wherever in the immense universe to regain a body and return to life. Let’s see some key-texts regarding this:
“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”— John 5:25, 28 e 29.
“Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told, you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”—John 14:1-3.
One can see clearly by these words that the saved ones “shall hear his voice” and then will live. They were in their graves, not in heaven or any other location in the universe. To say that only the bodies were in the graves makes no sense within the general tenor of what is said. Jesus speaks of INDIVIDUALS, not of body of individuals. And He promised that the place He would prepare for them would be available to these resurrected in the resurrection of life. He doesn’t say they would occupy their abodes when they died and their souls went to heaven, but when He returned so that His words were fulfilled: “I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”
All indicates that this being together with Christ occur, not when the souls go to heaven at death, but when Christ comes with the angels to gather His chosen ones, as another Bible text puts very clear:
“And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other”. — Matthew 24:30, 31.
The apostle Paul confirms that stressing his hope to obtain the eternal reward “at that day” of Christ’s return, not when his soul supposedly went to heaven at his death:
“For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.” — Philippians 3:20, 21.
He confirms this great expectation of his in 2 Timothy 4:6-8, as he mentions that the time of his departure was near:
“For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love, his appearing”.
In the detailed description of the real last happenings of human history, with the resurrection of the dead and the encounter with the Lord, the perspective is confirmed that only then the resurrected individuals (not merely their bodies) will meet their Savior, jointly with the entire community of the other redeemed ones.
“But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep, in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we, which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet, the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.”.—1 Thessalonians. 4:13-18.
And in 1 Corinthians 15, practically the entire chapter is dedicated to that theme. Let’s see some of its significant verses:
“Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?” — 1 Corinthians 15:51-55.
It becomes very clear by these words that there is no notion of souls coming from heaven or wherever it might be to regain a body. Besides, the language of a sounding trumpet, voice of the Lord to wake up “those who sleep” leaves no room to imagine souls coming, which would supposedly be fully awake, gathering their bodies from the dust to, then come out of this condition through these solemn convocations. And the resurrection is what means the defeat of death, not the fact that souls, like a “friendly ghost”, leaves the cadaver, prevailing in eternal existence. In this case, the immortality of the soul doctrine contradicts the Pauline statement that “death was swallowed in victory”. And this victory is guaranteed by the resurrection of the dead, not the “immortality” factor contained within the “soul” of an individual.
Verses 12-19 of 1 Corinthians 15 apply a mortal blow on this dualistic thesis:
“Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and [/u]your faith is also vain[/u]. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that, the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep, in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.”
And reinforcing what is thus said, we have vs. 32:
“If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for tomorrow we die.”
Let’s observe well the implications of what is stated:
a) There will be resurrection of the dead because Christ Himself was risen, as evidence of such possibility.
b) Had not been for the resurrection of Christ, the preaching of the gospel and the faith of the believers would be in vain.
c) And were not for the fact of the resurrection, confirmed and guaranteed by that of Christ Himself, “they also which are fallen asleep, in Christ are perished”.
d) If they “perished”, that is because the resurrection would not have happened, and the preaching of the gospel was in “vain”, since those who died believing in Christ would not be enjoying life, but dead in the dust. Also, according to vs. 32, the best option would be profit hedonistically from this life: “let us eat and drink; for tomorrow we die.”
These texts clearly are a refutation of the theory that those who are “asleep in Christ” are found somewhere, already guaranteed for eternity. Not at all, were not for the fact of the resurrection, highlighted by the context, they would have perished. The emphasis of the entire context undoubtedly in on the dominant theme of the chapter—the resurrection of the dead on the day of Jesus’ return.
Paul indicates his desire “to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better” (Phil. 1:23) would materialize, not when his soul headed toward heaven at his death, but at the occasion of the resurrection of the dead. It’s strange that his expectation expressed at the beginning of Philippians involved the possession of an “immortal soul”, this doesn’t deserve further elaboration in the same epistle, for in Chap. 3, vs. 20, and in the detailed description of the final encounter of the redeemed ones with the Savior en 1 Thessalonians 4, vs. 13ff, and throughout the entire Chap. 15 of 1 Corinthians.
Last edited by Daryl Fawcett; 10/22/08 07:00 PM. Reason: Requested grammatical correction only.
A. G. Brito
Sola Scriptura Ministry
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Re: 7 - The Nature Of Man
[Re: Azenilto]
#103608
10/14/08 01:52 PM
10/14/08 01:52 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Azenilto, would you please do me a favor and summarize the points you are posting. Are you posting something to be discussed, or are you just posting reference material? Thank you.
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Re: 7 - The Nature Of Man
[Re: Azenilto]
#103901
10/22/08 10:17 AM
10/22/08 10:17 AM
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Jesus Did Not Teach Immortality of the Soul
In Christ’s words in John 14:1-3 and 5:28, 29 there is no hint of any “immortal soul” in either of these texts, as he said:
“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
“Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told, you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”
Christ’s words “I go to prepare a place for you”, followed by the promise of His return—“I will come again and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also”—are very significant, indeed. Now, if Christ taught immortality of the soul he would have said that the promised abodes would be available to the redeemed ones as they died and their souls got to heaven to occupy them. The fact that He relates His return to the encounter with the redeemed ones at His return so that, then, they occupy their mansions cannot be taken lightly. They show that in Christ’s speech there is simply no room for the notion of souls or spirits going to heaven when one dies.
On the other hand, the text on the resurrection in John 5:28, 29 is preceded by some very noteworthy comments by the Master:
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.” (vs. 25).
Notice that He speaks of “the dead” hearing the voice of God's Son to LIVE. According to the context, in this specific verse He certainly refers to the saved ones. That would make no sense in terms of the belief in the immortality of the soul, for those who hear His voice ARE ALREADY ALIVE, in the form of “immortal souls”. However, those who “shall live” are found in their tombs, not in some location in the universe waiting to “hear the voice” in order to have life.
If the souls come from different places, first they have no need to hear any voice to be awakened—since they are well awake. And if so, it’s because they are alive, and the “SHALL LIVE” couldn’t apply to them!
And there is one more point to ponder: Jesus says “the DEAD shall hear the voice. . .” Now, if Jesus taught immortality of the soul He would have said—“the souls of those who died will reincorporate and hear the voice. . .” His preoccupation is not with those who are supposedly in some part of the space, but the DEAD ones. And these dead are those “that are in the graves”. The theme in the context is the judgment to which all should submit—the resurrection of life and that of JUDGMENT.
What to Say About Lazarus’ Resurrection?
When one reads what is considered the greatest of Christ’s miracles—the resurrection of His friend Lazarus, dead for four days (John chap. 11)—the Savior’s words don’t leave the least clue of belief in the immortality of the soul. Let’s check that:
a) Christ tells His disciples that the friend Lazarus was “sleeping”, utilizing the sleep metaphor to refer to death, something very common in the Scriptures, both in the Old and New Testaments. Death is pictured in the Bible as an unconscious sleep (Psalm 146:4; Eccl. 9: 5, 6 10; 1 Tes. 4:13-18).
b) In the brief conversation He had with the distressed sisters, Christ never says something on Lazarus being enjoying the heavenly bliss, rather points to the resurrection “in the last day” as the source of consolation. Martha reacts to His words on the same basis—confirming her hope in the resurrection (John 11: 23, 24).
c) Christ makes the wonderful and comforting statement: “I am the resurrection and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live” (vs. 25). The emphasis is not on souls going to heaven, but, again, on the resurrection at the final day. For that reason, whoever accepts the Gospel will live, not for being in possession of an immortal soul, but thanks to the resurrection that results in immortality, granted as a gift to those who believe (2 Tim. 1:10).
d) When Lazarus is brought back to life he has nothing to relate of his time in the “intermediate state”. If he had something to narrate of the period he was dead, John would be glad to record his report without hesitation. That would be a tremendously important theme, of the greatest interest to the community of believers. However, Lazarus brought no information about his possible stay in heaven because he had nothing to tell about.
e) If Christ had brought Lazarus from heaven to come back to the hardships of life on Earth He would have done a bad thing to His friend. If He brought him from hell (improbable, for he was a follower of the Master) He would have granted him a new opportunity of salvation, which is antibiblical (see Heb. 9:27).
Christ’s words and actions are consistent with what He had said in John 6:39: “And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again, at the last day.” Such words are repeated in vs. 40, 44 and 54. This last verse is very special:
“Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up, at the last day.”
And in 58 He stresses once more:
“This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live forever.”
It is very clear that He relates the possession of life eternal with the resurrection in the last day!
If Christ taught immortality of the soul undoubtedly His words would reflect such notion in these statements, for it is incredible that He missed to mention such a relevant fact regarding the destination of the saved ones--the theme He is exposing in these passage.
A. G. Brito
Sola Scriptura Ministry
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Re: 7 - The Nature Of Man
[Re: Azenilto]
#103902
10/22/08 10:22 AM
10/22/08 10:22 AM
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The Parable Paradoxes
What is the real intention of the rich man and Lazarus parable? Dualists often challenge those who harbor a holistic view with that text and we have considered it, but in retribution, we raised 10 difficulties for the advocates of the dualistic view (belief in the immortality of the soul) based on this parable (in truth they are 11). Let’s first see our analyzes of the parable itself, then the 10 difficulties that the objectors seem unable to overcome:
01 DIFFICULTY SOLVED VERSUS 10 WITHOUT SOLUTION (AS YET)
Christ does not have the intention to teach the immortality of the soul theory in that parable, because, to start with, He NEVER taught that in any other part of gospels, nor is it taught in any other part of the Bible.
On the contrary, Christ always emphasized the resurrection of dead as the only possibility to reach life eternal, which will be granted at His glorious return (see John 5:25, 28, 29 and 14:1-3). What He does is to present an illustration in a scenario of divine justice—whoever in this world lives indifferent to the principles on justice and mercy can think that he takes advantage in everything, but things, in the divine consideration, will be inverted in the due time.
Jewish tradition had certain notions regarding the “bosom of Abraham”, which Jesus took advantage of to stress His point. The use of an illustration through something just partially grounded on popular beliefs is normal and common among preachers. Histories of extraterrestrial visiting the planet are examples of resources of that type.
The Bible presents two illustrations of trees that chat in Isaiah 14:8 and Judges 9:8 (“Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us”; “The trees went forth on a time to anoint a king over them; and they said unto the olive tree, reign thou over us. But the olive tree said . . .”).
Would it be the case to ask: if the Bible is a book that only had to present the truth, how come it can use something so much absurd as the notion of trees that speak? Then the “difficulty” that the advocates of the literalness of the parable present to us is solved.
How about, now we also presenting 10 difficulties to them as to the notion that the parable of the rich man and Lazarus “proves” the belief in the immortality of the soul? Let’s see:
1 – How do you explain that in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus the words “soul” and “spirit” never appear, but the characters in it are normal people interacting to each other, in case its objective was to teach the immortality of the soul?
2 – How do you explain disembodied souls having eyes, fingers, tongue that could be even wet?
3 – Since the condemned one appeals to Abraham, could not the Roman-Catholics justify their teaching of “intercession of the saints” by means of such hypothetical story?
4 – How do you explain that in the parable itself, at the end a possibility is raised that some among the dead return to preach to the brothers of the rich man, but Abraham says that “though one ROSE FROM THE DEAD. . .” (vss. 30 and 31), confirming that only through the resurrection is the return into existence of those who died guaranteed?
5 – How do you explain the story of conversation between trees in Scriptures, being that entirely nonsense in normal terms?
6 – How do you explain the necessity of special attention to understand the parable that comes exactly before this--that of the smart butler--because literally an impression is left that Christ is teaching people to act unethically in the field of businesses?
7 – How do you explain the language of the same Christ in Marks 9:43-45 that cannot be understood literally, since nobody must remove parts of his/her body to obtain salvation, and in heavens there will be no people with such physical defects?
8 – Could you present an example of any basic doctrine of the Christian faith that has as its foundation a parable?
9 – If Christ wanted to teach the dualistic nature of man through this parable, why such idea is not found in any other part of His many spiritual lessons?
10 – Since the promise is that memories of bad things of the past will not exist, how could a father or mother forget the sufferings of a son or daughter who is eternally in tortures, since, according to the parable, both heaven and hell are is such proximity that it is possible for those in one side to witness what happens in the other?
Note: And one more difficulty could be highlighted: The GLOBAL TENOR of Biblical teaching on the final punishment of the reprobates is that it will occur on that “great and terrible day of the Lord”—at the end of history and when Christ comes (see Psa. 37:9, 10; 68:2; 92:7; Eze. 28:14-19; Ose. 1:14-19; Mal. 4:1-3; Mat. 10:28b; 2a Tess 1:7-10; Rev. 20:14, 15 and 21:8). Thus, how could hell be presented like being already in operation in the present time, when Christ has not come yet bringing His “flaming fires, taking vengeance”?
A. G. Brito
Sola Scriptura Ministry
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Re: 7 - The Nature Of Man
[Re: Mountain Man]
#103903
10/22/08 10:54 AM
10/22/08 10:54 AM
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Azenilto, would you please do me a favor and summarize the points you are posting. Are you posting something to be discussed, or are you just posting reference material? Thank you. Hi, man of the mountain. Greetings I think I am doing both. Anyone can discuss the material that I put as a serial (that reminds me I didn't have my cereal today yet) because it is a rebuttal to a series of articles in the Proclamation! Magazine. I have just one more to go in this new round, than it would be open for discussion. Now, I don't know how that could be summarized, for I deal with different aspects of the matter.
A. G. Brito
Sola Scriptura Ministry
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Re: 7 - The Nature Of Man
[Re: Azenilto]
#103904
10/22/08 10:59 AM
10/22/08 10:59 AM
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Not To Be Found Naked
Both Mr. Lee and Mr. Ratzlaff, in their discussions of man’s nature, mention the importance of the context of the Bible verses they quote. Unhappily, they don’t follow their own advice, for they neglect to consider the ampler context of the general tenor of what the Bible authors say, especially Paul, whose writings are the main source of their discussions.
Mrs. Colleen, for example, writes in the editorial page how certain she was that her deceased father went straight to heaven at his death, quoting Fil. 1:23:
“. . . for I am in a straight betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better”.
However, she forgot to proceed reading what else the Apostle has to say on the matter, further down in the same epistle:
“For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the working whereby He is able even to subdue all things unto Himself” (chap. 3, vs. 20, 21).
And how about the same Paul speaking of the world’s suffering in the face of the future glory?:
“For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also . . . even we ourselves groan within ourselves waiting for the adoption , to wit, the redemption of our body” (Rom. 8:22, 23).
So, where is the focus? Clearly, not in dying and going immediately to heaven. Paul himself expresses again his hope of life eternal in 2 Timothy 4:6-8, stressing THAT DAY, not of his death, but of the resurrection, when all those who have the same hope as Paul’s will be reunited to the Redeemer:
“For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing”.
In 2 Cor. 5:1ff Paul utilized the illustration of the tent to compare to the human body, which would disappear in death, to be replaced with another tent, of heavenly making. Now, Mr. Ratzlaff clearly misunderstood the Pauline illustration and engages in a theological reasoning according to the popular view of immortality of the soul based on Paul’s language there.
But his exposition just show the superficiality of his exegesis, for a careful reading of the text, especially in the context of other Pauline expressions of his hope of eternal life, as we have just seen, indicates a different conclusion than his.
Paul clearly welcomes death yearning for being with the Lord (vs. 2), but in vss. 3 and 4 he refers to death as being NAKED, which is very significant within the language of clothed/unclothed he resorts to.
In other of his texts, as in 1 Cor. 15:35-55, 1 Tess. 4: 15-17; 2 Tim, 4: 6-8; etc. he affirms that all will be simultaneously “clothed” with the heavenly body at the resurrection of the righteous ones, not when dying and having their souls going to heaven.
In vs. 4 he declared that “life”—evidently eternal life—is reached when one is “clothed” with his heavenly “tabernacle”, and the condition of being “naked” is exactly what he doesn’t want for himself, which means—without being clothed with the heavenly body after leaving the earthly one.
In the context of that passage, amplified with the wider context of his other discussions on the death/resurrection subject, it is clear that to be “absent from the body to be with the Lord” doesn’t mean to be in a disembodied condition, but, rather, to either participate of the final resurrection or to be transformed in a twinkle of an eye at Jesus’ coming (when this which is mortal is “swallowed up” in incorruptibility). That is the hope he also expressed in different occasions.
I don’t think we have even to spend much time discussing the exegesis of such texts, so badly dealt with in this edition of the magazine we have been analyzing. The questionnaires that accompany these discussions bring enough material for serious reflection on these subjects, but besides the discussion on how Jesus didn’t teach immortality of the soul and 10 topics by which we can see how the holistic view is much more logical and clearly superior to the dualistic conception of man’s nature.
We address all those contributors to that Proclamation! Magazine edition to have them trying to present to us at least ONE point by which they could prove that the dualistic understanding of man’s nature is superior over the holistic one, according to the ten points that we listed [See the study “[b]10 TOPICS THAT DEMONSTRATE THE SUPERIORITY OF THE HOLISTIC VIEW OF HUMAN NATURE OVER THE DUALISTIC VIEW”, below].
Before concluding this, let’s see one more text where we find a clear additional proof that the Apostle’s emphasis was not on the immortality of the soul, but on the coming of Christ to take home the redeemed ones, ALL TOGETHER, not some preceding others, all bound to the place He promised to prepare for His elect ones, which would could be occupied when He returns:
“And all these [Israel’s heroes of faith, listed in the chapter], having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect” (Heb. 11:39, 40).
“The context is all”, indeed, as the writers of this publication’s material stress. But if they read carefully the entire chapter they will see where its focus is—not on the idea that those heroes receive their inheritance as soon as they die, rather, they looked forward to the “city, which hath foundations, whose builder and marker is God” (vs. 10, compare with Fil. 3:20, 21).
Last edited by Azenilto; 10/22/08 11:09 AM.
A. G. Brito
Sola Scriptura Ministry
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Re: 7 - The Nature Of Man
[Re: Azenilto]
#103917
10/22/08 05:39 PM
10/22/08 05:39 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Wow! It's too bad this issue cannot be succinctly summarized. I get lost in all the verbiage. Oh well, it's a good thing there are people like you who can handle it well. Thank you. But I still have no idea what is being discussed.
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Re: 7 - The Nature Of Man
[Re: Mountain Man]
#104054
10/27/08 08:31 PM
10/27/08 08:31 PM
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Oh, my friend, I am sorry for having to go deep into all these different aspects of the discussion.
My suggestion is that you print everything and read it little by little as you commute in some train going/coming from work.
There will be more material coming, not condensed either. . .
A. G. Brito
Sola Scriptura Ministry
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Re: 7 - The Nature Of Man
[Re: Azenilto]
#104055
10/27/08 08:39 PM
10/27/08 08:39 PM
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Distortions in the Bible and Beyond
Going back some former discussions we’ve seen how Proclamation! magazine’s editor, Mr. Coleen Tinker tinkered with Ellen White writings distorted the meaning of her teachings regarding the Divinity. This can be checked in our article “Ellen White’s Discussion on the Trinity--Not According to Mrs. Tinker’s False Allegations”, when analyzing the May/June edition of that publication. We then said, regarding that point:
As I pointed out in my last analysis of Mrs. Tinker study on Ellen White’s discussion of the Godhead, if Ellen White were to start a new view on the subject, like the tritheism that our opponent suggested as being Ellen White’s stand, that would have been adopted by the Church as a whole, which never was the case.
To discuss things pertaining to God is not easy and our poor human language will always be inadequate to express exactly how the Godhead “operates”. So, one can easily stumble on words in exploring EGW’s attempt to make sense of the “heavenly trio” (an expression of hers), which is exactly Mrs. Tinker’s problem in her tritheism interpretation of the SDA author’s language.
Proclamation! magazine’s editor makes certain statements that are purely speculative and have absolutely no basis. She says, at a certain point in her article:
While Ellen White grew up believing in the Trinity, she changed her views in adulthood. No doubt James influenced this change, but she claimed that her visions established her unorthodox beliefs. Early in her career she was overtly Arian, and although her later views endorsed “a heavenly trio”, she never taught an orthodox Trinity.
The evidence for that statement is simply absent. What she presents as “proof” is no proof at all. It’s the text when Ellen White simply discusses the attitude of the rebel angel in Heaven, envious of Jesus’ privileges and proximity to God, as is well known to SDA’s [Spiritual Gifts, Vol., 3, p. 37]. But Mrs. White never gives the least impression that because of that she is considering Jesus inferior to the Father. What Mrs. Tinker does is no more than engaging herself in an exercise in intellectual dishonesty, quoting the Adventist pioneer out of due context, jumping to biased conclusions of what could be going on in Ellen White’s mind, which is simply speculation of the worst type.
In a past issue we caught Mrs. Tinker again tinkering with SDA practices and customs, distorting the facts. It’s the March/April of 2008, where in her editorial Mrs. Tinker, now tinkering with a Bible text that she doesn’t understand, alleges:
I was blind to the impact of certain recorded facts. For example, the plain reading of Luke 23:43 and 56 tells us that when Jesus died, His spirit went to His Father. Further, one thief who died with him could be confident that he would be with Jesus in paradise that very day. Yet for years I believed Jesus’ breath went to God while He honored the Sabbath by lying lifeless in the tomb, His personality non-existent, inaccessible to His Father until Sunday. Jesus might die, I believed, but Sabbath was eternal.
We will see the distortion in Bible understanding at that point later on, but first there is one more distortion of hers, this time about SDA’s attitude regarding those who celebrate Easter. She seems happy to have adopted the larger society’s ways regarding that festival:
Now I can celebrate! On this day I honor the Lord Jesus and praise Father, Son, and Holy Spirit for accomplishing within the Trinity all that is necessary for my eternal security. I go to church and worship; I smell the Easter lilies and eat Easter brunch with a house full of brothers and sisters in Christ--and we rejoice because we no longer scoff at Easter. Instead, we praise Jesus for His death and life, and we stand before God and call Him our Father.
I wonder if she also follows the popular tradition of Halloween so enthusiastically. . . Anyway, the fact is that in over 40 years as a member of the SDA community I never heard anyone in our midst “scoffing” Easter. Why should we? On the contrary, what I see, checking Bro. Bacchiocchi’s website, is something very different. In his Newsletter # 169 he mentions several activities by SDA congregations across the States taking advantage of this special festival to celebrate the Resurrection, not as an admission of the validity of the date, set by Catholic Tradition (and highly reputed Ecclesiastical Church historian, Sam Bacchiocchi, also discusses the historical roots of Easter in the sequence), but as an evangelistic tool.
Let’s see what we find there as a sample of these special Easter programs:
. . . the Department of Religious Affairs and Religious Liberty of the North Pacific Union of SDA, has invited Pastor Richard Elofer, President of our Adventist Mission in Israel to Los Angeles “to help us celebrate the Passover, a sacred memorial for Jews and Christians alike, a Festival of Freedom. He will be joined by Alan J. Reinach, Esq., Director of Public Affairs & Religious Liberty for the Pacific Union Conference.”
The announcement that has been forwarded to me reads: “Come Celebrate a Passover Weekend from a Seventh-day Adventists Perspective, April 6 & 7, in Los Angeles, California. . . . A special service will be conducted at the Burbank Seventh-day Adventist Church on Friday evening, April 6th at 7:30 p. m.
Also:
While some Adventist congregations will be celebrating Passover, other Adventist Churches in the USA and overseas will hold Easter Sunday services for their congregations and community people. Some of these Adventist churches are listed in GOOGLE. This is the announcement I received from the Pacific Union College SDA Church.
There will be Good Friday and Easter Sunday services this year. Nathaniel Gamble, a PUC theology student, will coordinate the programs.
The Good Friday service will begin with foot washing from 7:15-7:45 p.m. The main service will start at 8 p.m. and share The Lord‚s Supper at the end.
Sabbath morning Pastor Mitchell will preach at both services, “Trading Places: The Story of a Father’s Two Sons.”
The Easter Sunday service will take place at 9:30 a.m. All who are planning on coming to these two events should arrive at least 15-30 minutes before the start of the service for seating.”
That all could be checked through this link:
http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/endtimeissues/et_169.htm
So, we can see how Mrs. Tinker’s tinkering with SDA affairs simply denotes a dishonest assessment of our beliefs and practices.
But, again her regrettable distortions of Ellen White’s statements can be seen in the last edition of her magazine. She again comes up with another farfetched allegation against Ellen White. She says in an article she contributed to the last issue, “Are Humans More than Living Bodies?” that “Both Ellen and James White taught that both Jesus and God had literal physical bodies”. Then she reproduces certain selections by Ellen White in the her Early Writings, p. 77, also indicating pages 55 and 92 that I checked. Even worse is the false statement that SDA’s have the same conception of a “physical body” of God like Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons!
I asked my wife, who happens to be a SDA for longer than me, whether she had learned these ideas in the many years she attends church and she was simply startled with such a fabrication! Never in her life, attending church regularly, that was ever mentioned by any pastor or Bible instructor, Sabbath School teacher, that she can have any recollection of.
What Ellen White says is no different from what we read in Isa. 6:1-10 (God sitting on His throne) or Daniel 7:9, where he describes the “Ancient of days”. Or how about Moses’ narrating his own experience of seeing God’s “back parts”?:
“And he said, I beseech thee, show me thy glory. And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before, thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a cleft of the rock, and will cover, thee with my hand while I pass by: And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen”. Exo. 33:18-23.
The Bible presents these glimpses of the Divinity, but never elaborates on these things. The psalmist speaks about being under God’s “wings”. Does that mean that God has a body similar to that of an angel, or a bird?! And how about John’s strange descriptions of the Divinity in heaven, as he records his visions in the Revelation?
Ellen White’s very brief description of what she saw in vision, with no elaboration, NEVER prompted any SDA doctrine or understanding regarding an attribution of a physical body to God. The Seventh-day Adventist Commentary, by the way, thus discusses John 4:24, “God is Spirit. . .”: “As an infinite spiritual being, God is not subject to the same limitations of the finite material beings”. So, no hint of any SDA doctrine of God having a physical body can be found there. In the SDA Bible Dictionary, entry “God”, nothing also gives the least impression of any physical body related to God.
I just wonder what is the real size of Mrs. Pinocchia’s nose, which doesn’t show in her smiling picture on the magazine’s internal cover. . .
Did Jesus receive an immortal human spirit?
The Incarnation is as beyond man’s finite understanding as God’s nature itself. However, since Jesus was made flesh and lived among men, there are some serious problems to understand the real link between the Divine Word who was made flesh (John 1:14) and his “Son of man” feature. For example, the prophecy regarding Him says:
“Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me”. Heb. 10:5.
Nothing is said about Jesus receiving a human immortal soul or spirit at His Incarnation. He died as any man, and before dying He simply expressed the same idea that Solomon had expressed in Eccl. 12:7, submitting His human life to the Father, delivering His spirit, or breath of life, not His soul or spirit. Now, even by the mere logic of it, why would He (or Stephen, in Acts 7:59) say something of “receive my [immortal] spirit” when they would immediately be personally there? It makes no sense. The language itself denotes a bidding farewell to life, in the sense that even though their human life span came to and end, that spirit that left then would be returned through resurrection. Christ got His back on the third day. Stephen will have his on that final day.
Now, that poses a big problem for dualists, and I never had any clear answer on the part of them to this question: did Jesus receive a human immortal soul (or spirit) when He took over man’s nature? If so, will He be tied to that forever? How could God Himself be limited by a human “soul” or “spirit” when He is already a spiritual being, a Spirit much superior to any created being?
While the advocates of these notions of immortality of the soul think over this matter, let’s discuss the text of Luke 23:43, which Mrs. Tinker tinkers about but shows no “greater light” in understanding the matter, through this study that we composed and have been publicizing in different Internet site in four languages, Portuguese, Spanish, English and German:
A. G. Brito
Sola Scriptura Ministry
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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