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Re: Love me or I'll kill you!
[Re: APL]
#150911
03/19/13 04:23 AM
03/19/13 04:23 AM
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APL, God is not limited in His means of carrying out His purposes. If He chooses, He can use Pilate and Herod to kill the Lamb of God. But how did Jesus die? Did Pilate actually kill Him? Did He not die of separation from His Father on account of the burden of sins which was placed upon Him? The nails did not end His life. The sword which passed into His side only did so after He was dead. Does God blame Pilate? Yes. Does God also accept responsibility? Through type and promise God "preached before the gospel unto Abraham." Galatians 3:8. And the patriarch's faith was fixed upon the Redeemer to come. Said Christ to the Jews. "Your father Abraham rejoiced that he should see My day; and he saw it, and was glad." John 8:56, R.V., margin. The ram offered in the place of Isaac represented the Son of God, who was to be sacrificed in our stead. When man was doomed to death by transgression of the law of God, the Father, looking upon His Son, said to the sinner, "Live: I have found a ransom." {PP 154.1}
It was to impress Abraham's mind with the reality of the gospel, as well as to test his faith, that God commanded him to slay his son. The agony which he endured during the dark days of that fearful trial was permitted that he might understand from his own experience something of the greatness of the sacrifice made by the infinite God for man's redemption. No other test could have caused Abraham such torture of soul as did the offering of his son. God gave His Son to a death of agony and shame. The angels who witnessed the humiliation and soul anguish of the Son of God were not permitted to interpose, as in the case of Isaac. There was no voice to cry, "It is enough." To save the fallen race, the King of glory yielded up His life. What stronger proof can be given of the infinite compassion and love of God? "He that spared not His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?" Romans 8:32. {PP 154.2} According to that passage, God killed His Son. This should give us pause. As for who killed Saul? The message itself is sufficient evidence of its origin. Its object was not to lead Saul to repentance, but to urge him on to ruin; and this is not the work of God, but of Satan. Furthermore, the act of Saul in consulting a sorceress is cited in Scripture as one reason why he was rejected by God and abandoned to destruction. "Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to inquire of it; and inquired not of the Lord; therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse." 1 Chronicles 10:13, 14.--PP 683. {TA 124.2} God did something here. He rejected Saul, and He abandoned him. This broke Saul's spirit. He was already rejected before seeking the witch, but afterward was left wholly desolate, and his morose spirit and emptiness of soul could not keep its hold on life. Did God insert the sword in Saul's heart? No. Did God insert the nails in Jesus' hands and feet? No. But the real cause of death in both cases was that of a broken heart. Saul deserved his, Jesus did not. You see, I can easily fit the exceptional features which you mention into my understanding, and they do not trouble me at all. If one prefers to say that God killed Saul, that is fine. If one prefers to say that Saul killed himself, that is fine too. What is not accurate is to say that God did not kill Saul. God is ultimately in charge. David did not technically kill Uriah either. But David was in charge, and God rightfully blamed him. God sits on a throne higher than did David. An interesting point that can be made about that "troublesome" text in 1 Chronicles which says "he slew him" in English is that the "he" is not there in the Hebrew. That's a supplied word. Furthermore, it may be unclear what its antecedent is. For instance, the "he" might actually point back to the familiar spirit, in which case we might have the devil himself doing the dirty work. One would still have an interesting interpretive conundrum there, seeing as Saul killed himself. Again, I don't have any issue with this passage one way or the other. God is within His rights to claim responsibility if He chooses. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Love me or I'll kill you!
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#150912
03/19/13 05:31 AM
03/19/13 05:31 AM
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APL, There are a number of special problems which your view runs against, but which are not problems at all with the fuller view that I maintain. One of those is that God honors some of His people who have killed for Him. Take Elijah, for example. ...Elijah, who, as the prophet of God, had that day humiliated Ahab before his subjects and slain his idolatrous priests, still acknowledged him as Israel's king; and now, as an act of homage, and strengthened by the power of God, he ran before the royal chariot, guiding the king to the entrance of the city. {PK 158.1}
In this gracious act of God's messenger shown to a wicked king is a lesson for all who claim to be servants of God, but who are exalted in their own estimation. There are those who feel above performing duties that to them appear menial. They hesitate to perform even needful service, fearing that they will be found doing the work of a servant. These have much to learn from the example of Elijah. By his word the treasures of heaven had been for three years withheld from the earth; he had been signally honored of God as, in answer to his prayer on Carmel, fire had flashed from heaven and consumed the sacrifice; his hand had executed the judgment of God in slaying the idolatrous prophets; his petition for rain had been granted. And yet, after the signal triumphs with which God had been pleased to honor his public ministry, he was willing to perform the service of a menial. {PK 158.2}
...He was honored of God as he offered his simple prayer in the presence of the king and the thousands of Israel, in answer to which fire flashed from heaven and kindled the fire upon the altar of sacrifice. His hand executed the judgment of God in slaying eight hundred and fifty priests of Baal; and yet, after the exhausting toil and most signal triumph of the day, he who could bring clouds and rain and fire from heaven was willing to perform the service of a menial and run before the chariot of Ahab in the darkness and in the wind and rain to serve the sovereign whom he had not feared to rebuke to his face because of his sins and crimes. ... {3T 287.4} There is also David and Goliath, Samuel and Agag, Caleb and Joshua against the Canaanites, the woman who smote Sisera, and many more. Remember Phinehas? Phinehas "hath turned My wrath away from the children of Israel," was the divine message; "wherefore say, Behold, I give unto him My covenant of peace: and he shall have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for His God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel." {PP 455.3} Why did God honor Phinehas? What was his good deed? All felt that the punishment was just, and the people hastened to the tabernacle, and with tears and deep humiliation confessed their sin. While they were thus weeping before God, at the door of the tabernacle, while the plague was still doing its work of death, and the magistrates were executing their terrible commission, Zimri, one of the nobles of Israel, came boldly into the camp, accompanied by a Midianitish harlot, a princess "of a chief house in Midian," whom he escorted to his tent. Never was vice bolder or more stubborn. Inflamed with wine, Zimri declared his "sin as Sodom," and gloried in his shame. The priests and leaders had prostrated themselves in grief and humiliation, weeping "between the porch and the altar," and entreating the Lord to spare His people, and give not His heritage to reproach, when this prince in Israel flaunted his sin in the sight of the congregation, as if to defy the vengeance of God and mock the judges of the nation. Phinehas, the son of Eleazar the high priest, rose up from among the congregation, and seizing a javelin, "he went after the man of Israel into the tent," and slew them both. Thus the plague was stayed, while the priest who had executed the divine judgment was honored before all Israel, and the priesthood was confirmed to him and to his house forever. {PP 455.2} Phinehas killed for God, and God proclaimed his honor with an everlasting covenant--specifically for his act of killing. If you want to believe that God does not kill, why does God honor those who do? This is a big problem, as I see it, for your view. The truth, which you may not be open to, is that your view is not Biblical. The Bible shows us both the loving and the justice sides to God's character. Either one of these, without the other, results in an imbalanced view. To understand God fully, one must acknowledge both. Your view has many good points. God is loving. Supremely loving. But in His love and wisdom, God also is just. Justice and mercy demand the death of the unrepentant sinner. When God kills, it is in mercy and love, as well as in justice. It takes a mature mind to grasp this, for it may not seem natural to join these characteristics in a single purpose. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Love me or I'll kill you!
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#150913
03/19/13 05:37 AM
03/19/13 05:37 AM
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So which is it? The Father killed Christ, or Christ died of separation from the Father? You have said both in your post. The Father did not execute His son. Was there separation between the Son and the Father? YES. WHY? SIN. It was sin that separated man from his God, and it is sin that maintains this separation. {16MR 115.2} Ah, but you say, Christ was sinless! Christ, who knew not the least moral taint or defilement of sin, took our nature in its deteriorated condition. {16MR 115.3} 1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bore our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live to righteousness: by whose stripes you were healed. It was sin that killed the Son of God. The Cross IS the answer. Sin destroys the sinner. Using your logic, we can say, GOD HAS KILLED EVERYONE! Nice. No, Saul was not killed by God. Oh, and the "he" apparently also fouled EGW.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Love me or I'll kill you!
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#150914
03/19/13 06:43 AM
03/19/13 06:43 AM
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APL, There are a number of special problems which your view runs against, but which are not problems at all with the fuller view that I maintain. One of those is that God honors some of His people who have killed for Him. Take Elijah, for example. ...Elijah, who, as the prophet of God, had that day humiliated Ahab before his subjects and slain his idolatrous priests, still acknowledged him as Israel's king; and now, as an act of homage, and strengthened by the power of God, he ran before the royal chariot, guiding the king to the entrance of the city. {PK 158.1}
In this gracious act of God's messenger shown to a wicked king is a lesson for all who claim to be servants of God, but who are exalted in their own estimation. There are those who feel above performing duties that to them appear menial. They hesitate to perform even needful service, fearing that they will be found doing the work of a servant. These have much to learn from the example of Elijah. By his word the treasures of heaven had been for three years withheld from the earth; he had been signally honored of God as, in answer to his prayer on Carmel, fire had flashed from heaven and consumed the sacrifice; his hand had executed the judgment of God in slaying the idolatrous prophets; his petition for rain had been granted. And yet, after the signal triumphs with which God had been pleased to honor his public ministry, he was willing to perform the service of a menial. {PK 158.2}
...He was honored of God as he offered his simple prayer in the presence of the king and the thousands of Israel, in answer to which fire flashed from heaven and kindled the fire upon the altar of sacrifice. His hand executed the judgment of God in slaying eight hundred and fifty priests of Baal; and yet, after the exhausting toil and most signal triumph of the day, he who could bring clouds and rain and fire from heaven was willing to perform the service of a menial and run before the chariot of Ahab in the darkness and in the wind and rain to serve the sovereign whom he had not feared to rebuke to his face because of his sins and crimes. ... {3T 287.4} There is also David and Goliath, Samuel and Agag, Caleb and Joshua against the Canaanites, the woman who smote Sisera, and many more. Remember Phinehas? Phinehas "hath turned My wrath away from the children of Israel," was the divine message; "wherefore say, Behold, I give unto him My covenant of peace: and he shall have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for His God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel." {PP 455.3} Why did God honor Phinehas? What was his good deed? All felt that the punishment was just, and the people hastened to the tabernacle, and with tears and deep humiliation confessed their sin. While they were thus weeping before God, at the door of the tabernacle, while the plague was still doing its work of death, and the magistrates were executing their terrible commission, Zimri, one of the nobles of Israel, came boldly into the camp, accompanied by a Midianitish harlot, a princess "of a chief house in Midian," whom he escorted to his tent. Never was vice bolder or more stubborn. Inflamed with wine, Zimri declared his "sin as Sodom," and gloried in his shame. The priests and leaders had prostrated themselves in grief and humiliation, weeping "between the porch and the altar," and entreating the Lord to spare His people, and give not His heritage to reproach, when this prince in Israel flaunted his sin in the sight of the congregation, as if to defy the vengeance of God and mock the judges of the nation. Phinehas, the son of Eleazar the high priest, rose up from among the congregation, and seizing a javelin, "he went after the man of Israel into the tent," and slew them both. Thus the plague was stayed, while the priest who had executed the divine judgment was honored before all Israel, and the priesthood was confirmed to him and to his house forever. {PP 455.2} Phinehas killed for God, and God proclaimed his honor with an everlasting covenant--specifically for his act of killing. If you want to believe that God does not kill, why does God honor those who do? This is a big problem, as I see it, for your view. The truth, which you may not be open to, is that your view is not Biblical. The Bible shows us both the loving and the justice sides to God's character. Either one of these, without the other, results in an imbalanced view. To understand God fully, one must acknowledge both. Your view has many good points. God is loving. Supremely loving. But in His love and wisdom, God also is just. Justice and mercy demand the death of the unrepentant sinner. When God kills, it is in mercy and love, as well as in justice. It takes a mature mind to grasp this, for it may not seem natural to join these characteristics in a single purpose. Blessings, Green Cochoa. Please do not forget, The Children of Israel were NOT suppose to fight. Exodus 23:28 And I will send hornets before you, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite, from before you. It is not a problem for my view the stories you present. It is not God's ideal. And it is not God acting. Remember David, a man after God's own heart, was NOT permitted to build the Temple. Why? Because he was a man of blood. It would have given the people the wrong idea. What was Moses' great sin which kept him out of the land of Canaan? Moses misrepresented God's character. Elijah - I'm not going to quote the science because I do not have papers handy at this time as to what may have happened in 2 Kings 1. But we have a glimps in the NT that reflects on this topic. Luke 9:54-56 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, will you that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? 55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, You know not what manner of spirit you are of. 56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village. I once thought as you do. No longer. That view minimized the gravity of sin. It turns God into the problem, not sin. Sin is not a legal problem. If sin is a legal problem, then please explain why all creation is affected? Sin is bad, not because it is breaking the rules then makes God mad, but because it destroys God's creation. All problems resolve when you realize this: All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. {8T 286.1} When we look to Jesus, then we need to interpret the OT from that viewpoint. Jesus answers all questions.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Love me or I'll kill you!
[Re: APL]
#150924
03/19/13 01:25 PM
03/19/13 01:25 PM
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Banned
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So you totally discount the fact that it says God inflicts the punishment. OK well that is your response so we disagree, so stop spamming every quote I make please on every thread with this argument. Thanks.
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Love me or I'll kill you!
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#150928
03/19/13 01:52 PM
03/19/13 01:52 PM
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APL, You're changing the topics and/or twisting what I presented. Is that because you have no answer? Perhaps you have a hard time accepting these things yourself. I did not refer even once to the fire that GOD sent down on Elijah's behalf to kill the soldiers in my post. You have a special problem with that too, I suppose, unless you can explain that by natural causes, which you are trying to do, I see. What I referred to was Elijah, by his own hand, killing 450 prophets of Baal, and God honoring him for doing so. Again the voice of Elijah is heard in startling words of command to the people: "Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape." The people are ready to obey his word. They seize the false prophets who have deluded them, and bring them to the brook Kishon, and there, with his own hand, Elijah slays these idolatrous priests. {3T 285.1}
He was honored of God as he offered his simple prayer in the presence of the king and the thousands of Israel, in answer to which fire flashed from heaven and kindled the fire upon the altar of sacrifice. His hand executed the judgment of God in slaying eight hundred and fifty priests of Baal; and yet, after the exhausting toil and most signal triumph of the day, he who could bring clouds and rain and fire from heaven was willing to perform the service of a menial and run before the chariot of Ahab in the darkness and in the wind and rain to serve the sovereign whom he had not feared to rebuke to his face because of his sins and crimes. ... {3T 287.4} If God honors those who do what He would not do Himself, we have a picture of God that makes Him into a hypocrite or worse. That is the picture you have. Regarding the quote that "All that man needs to know...," this quote is so misused these days. Don't forget, it was God's Son who led the children of Israel in the days of Moses. His life AND CHARACTER have been revealed throughout the entire Bible, extending beyond His earthly lifetime. (Most people on your side of this discussion will try to say that it meant only His earthly existence. They are wrong, and face some special theological problems in doing so, such as the fact that the Old Testament gives us many examples of things we don't see from God in the life of Jesus during His earthly ministry.) Sodom is one example. The Flood is another. God honoring those who killed is another. Jesus did not do this during His time here. He didn't do everything in just 3.5 years of ministry. We can learn much more about God from looking at Jesus' character throughout the Old Testament. Remember, Jesus referred to His own pre-existence while He was on earth among us. In His teachings while personally among men Jesus directed the minds of the people to the Old Testament. He said to the Jews, "Ye search the Scriptures, because ye think that in them ye have eternal life; and these are they which bear witness of Me." John 5:39, R.V. At this time the books of the Old Testament were the only part of the Bible in existence. Again the Son of God declared, "They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them." And He added, "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:29, 31. {PP 367.1}
The ceremonial law was given by Christ. Even after it was no longer to be observed, Paul presented it before the Jews in its true position and value, showing its place in the plan of redemption and its relation to the work of Christ; and the great apostle pronounces this law glorious, worthy of its divine Originator. The solemn service of the sanctuary typified the grand truths that were to be revealed through successive generations. The cloud of incense ascending with the prayers of Israel represents His righteousness that alone can make the sinner's prayer acceptable to God; the bleeding victim on the altar of sacrifice testified of a Redeemer to come; and from the holy of holies the visible token of the divine Presence shone forth. Thus through age after age of darkness and apostasy faith was kept alive in the hearts of men until the time came for the advent of the promised Messiah. {PP 367.2}
Jesus was the light of His people--the Light of the world--before He came to earth in the form of humanity. The first gleam of light that pierced the gloom in which sin had wrapped the world, came from Christ. And from Him has come every ray of heaven's brightness that has fallen upon the inhabitants of the earth. In the plan of redemption Christ is the Alpha and the Omega--the First and the Last. {PP 367.3} Jesus Himself said that the Old Testament scriptures bear witness of Him. How can we ignore this? If they bear witness of Jesus, what about Him can we know? Do they tell us about His physical appearance? Or are they focused primarily on His character? I would submit that nearly the only thing about Jesus we see in the Old Testament is His character. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Love me or I'll kill you!
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#150932
03/19/13 02:46 PM
03/19/13 02:46 PM
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You're changing the topics and/or twisting what I presented. Is that because you have no answer? Perhaps you have a hard time accepting these things yourself. Satan accuses God of having his own characteristics. Perhaps you are trying to accuse me of having yours? I hope not! I did not refer even once to the fire that GOD sent down on Elijah's behalf to kill the soldiers in my post. Did I say you did? No. You brought up Elijah, and so I was pointing out another aspect of Elijah. No need to be so defensive. Regarding the quote that "All that man needs to know...," this quote is so misused these days. Don't forget, it was God's Son who led the children of Israel in the days of Moses. His life AND CHARACTER have been revealed throughout the entire Bible, extending beyond His earthly lifetime. (Most people on your side of this discussion will try to say that it meant only His earthly existence. They are wrong, and face some special theological problems in doing so, such as the fact that the Old Testament gives us many examples of things we don't see from God in the life of Jesus during His earthly ministry.) It is written: Hebrews 1:1-3 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 Has in these last days spoken to us by his Son, whom he has appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: Also: John 14:9 Jesus said to him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet have you not known me, Philip? he that has seen me has seen the Father; and how say you then, Show us the Father?These verses points to Christ at His incarnation here on earth. God is JUST LIKE Jesus. I would submit that nearly the only thing about Jesus we see in the Old Testament is His character. I have quoted the article in Signs of the Times, January 20, 1890, where is says and I quote: "When the object of his mission was attained,--the revelation of God to the world,--the Son of God announced that his work was accomplished, and that the character of the Father was made manifest to men." Yes, the OT testifies to what the Messiah would do, what he would experience, how he would respond! But not until He came did we REALLY understand the character of the Father. Yes, Christ has been with the Father from eternity past. But the best revelation of God is seen in life and character of His Son. I see in our discusions, that your heart is harder than ever. It is not my job to change your heart, for indeed I never can. That is an issue between you and God. John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.Get this wrong, and you do not have eternal life. Christ's death did not settle some legal issue. We are not in legal trouble. We are in real trouble. "A cold, legal religion can never lead souls to Christ; for it is a loveless, Christless religion."
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Love me or I'll kill you!
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#150934
03/19/13 02:55 PM
03/19/13 02:55 PM
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So you totally discount the fact that it says God inflicts the punishment. OK well that is your response so we disagree, so stop spamming every quote I make please on every thread with this argument. Thanks. It is written: 1 Corinthians 13:4-13 - emphasis supplied4 Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. 7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8 Love never ends. But as for prophecies, they will come to an end; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will come to an end. 9 For we know only in part, and we prophesy only in part; 10 but when the complete comes, the partial will come to an end. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became an adult, I put an end to childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known. 13 And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Love me or I'll kill you!
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#150944
03/19/13 04:01 PM
03/19/13 04:01 PM
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Brothers Kland, APL and Johann, I know you all want to continue to argue that God is not in charge of the destruction of the wicked. This is obvious because every opportunity you have on every thread you all make this observation.
Every? James, for some reason you have avoided answering me about your premise, is God the destroyer or the restorer. For some reason. I can only conclude that you really don't want to state what you believe, that God is the destroyer, because when you think about it, it seems distasteful to you, but yet you still believe it. With thinking God is the destroyer, anything else we talk about will only come across as silly to you since we are disputing your absolutely held belief and premise that God is the destroyer. It would be the same as if you believed 2+2=5 and we were saying it equaled 4, it totally would come across as pure silliness. And likewise, if you were to try the same with me. We each have an absolutely held premise. No discussion of anything else can possibly change that. Only when one comes face to face with a question such as, if God is the destroyer or restorer, is there even the potential. It is a very deeply held and internal belief about what we really think about God, about whether we really "like" Him. If it was to be pointed out that Saul killed himself, one who believed that God is the destroyer may go so far as to spin it as that God caused Saul to kill himself, and then that Saul really had no choice in the matter, and then even so far as to say Saul was predestined to kill himself.... James, I may be wrong about the following, but I see any last day prophets or those who have dreams as those who embrace the health message and have a correct view of God. I found out about Ernie, using the health message, before many others found out about him. I am reconsidering my views concerning your dreams from god. Perhaps you could spend some time fasting and praying that God may reveal to you about which way is correct regarding His character. This would be important to God, no?
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Re: Love me or I'll kill you!
[Re: kland]
#150951
03/19/13 08:24 PM
03/19/13 08:24 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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It is written: Hebrews 1:1-3 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 Has in these last days spoken to us by his Son, whom he has appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
Also: John 14:9 Jesus said to him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet have you not known me, Philip? he that has seen me has seen the Father; and how say you then, Show us the Father?
These verses points to Christ at His incarnation here on earth. God is JUST LIKE Jesus. I agree that God is like Jesus. And what is Jesus like? Perhaps you would like to suppose that the only revelation we have of Christ is that of His earthly ministry. Is that right? What do you think of the following statements? It was Christ who directed the education of Israel.
It was Christ who, centuries before, in the mysterious conflict by the Jabbok, had inspired Jacob....
It was Christ who planned the arrangement for the first earthly tabernacle.
It was Christ who from the bush on Mount Horeb spoke to Moses saying, "I AM THAT I AM. . . .
It was Christ who in the Old Testament gave the warning to Israel, "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise."
It was Christ who had spoken to Israel through Moses.
It was Christ who spoke with Abraham under the oaks at Mamre; with Isaac as he went out to pray in the fields at the eventide; with Jacob on the hillside at Bethel; with Moses among the mountains of Midian; and with the boy David as he watched his flocks.
It was Christ who gave all the directions of the law in regard to tithes and offerings.
It was Christ who spoke the law on Mount Sinai, and He knew the bearing of all its precepts, the glory and majesty of the law of heaven.
...it was Christ who instituted the Jewish economy and the sacrificial service. Those are just a few of the "one-liners" that all remind us how much of Jesus' character we can learn from in the Old Testament. But, this next passage I will quote in fuller context, because it is important, and I feel readers of this thread will appreciate its perspective. In a trial for murder the accused was not to be condemned on the testimony of one witness, even though circumstantial evidence might be strong against him. The Lord's direction was, "Whoso killeth any person, the murderer shall be put to death by the mouth of witnesses: but one witness shall not testify against any person to cause him to die." Numbers 35:30. It was Christ who gave to Moses these directions for Israel; and when personally with His disciples on earth, as He taught them how to treat the erring, the Great Teacher repeated the lesson that one man's testimony is not to acquit or condemn. One man's views and opinions are not to settle disputed questions. In all these matters two or more are to be associated, and together they are to bear the responsibility, "that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established." Matthew 18:16. {PP 516.1}
If the one tried for murder were proved guilty, no atonement or ransom could rescue him. "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed." Genesis 9:6. "Ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, which is guilty of death: but he shall be surely put to death." "Thou shalt take him from Mine altar, that he may die," was the command of God; "the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it." Numbers 35:31, 33; Exodus 21:14. The safety and purity of the nation demanded that the sin of murder be severely punished. Human life, which God alone could give, must be sacredly guarded. {PP 516.2} These things must be understood in their proper perspective. Balance is necessary when one approaches the Bible. To automatically assume that one person is incorrect because they oppose our own favorite opinions is unbalanced and perilous. I cannot say how much understanding of God's character will be necessary for one's salvation, and I'm disappointed that others here have indicated they think they know something about that. I know that we must understand enough of God's grace and love to choose to place our trust in Him, and to love Him as our personal Friend and Savior. This I do. I know Jesus has our best interest at heart. But it is unsafe to think that there is no judgment coming from God. There is a limit to His mercy. The above statement from Mrs. White is plain. Christ Himself gave command to kill those who committed murder. If Christ honors those who kill in righteousness, and He commands that such killings take place, it is not surprising that He will also execute justice and judgment Himself. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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