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Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Tom] #101008
07/19/08 11:13 PM
07/19/08 11:13 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
 Originally Posted By: Tom
MM, do you seriously think that when EGW wrote that "the light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous" that she had in mind that the physical light of God's physical presence gives life to the righteous? You don't believe that it is Jesus Christ gives life to the righteous?

Here are the different ways she uses the phrase - "the light of the glory of God." Please note my comments after each quote. In none of these cases does the light symbolize Jesus.

DA 137
The next day John sees Jesus coming. With the light of the glory of God resting upon him, the prophet stretches out his hands, declaring, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world! {DA 137.1}

MM: This light cannot mean Jesus. Otherwise, it would mean Jesus rested upon Jesus. Thus, it was literal light.

EW 198
As Stephen stood before his judges, the light of the glory of God rested upon his countenance. {EW 198.1}

MM: This light was literal.

EV 284
Everything that you can do to bring souls to a knowledge of the truth, is a means of allowing the light to shine, the light of the glory of God, as it shines in the face of Jesus Christ. {Ev 284.3}

MM: This light is symbolic of the truth as it is in Jesus.

FE 238
God had said, "Let there be spiritual light," and the light of the glory of God was revealed in the face of Jesus Christ. {FE 238.1}

MM: This light was symbolic of the truth. Otherwise, it would say Jesus was revealed in Jesus' face.

HP 70
Those who profess the religion of Christ should understand the responsibility resting upon them. They should feel that this is an individual work, an individual preaching of Christ. If each would realize this and take hold of the work, we should be as mighty as an army with banners. The heavenly Dove would hover over us. The light of the glory of God would be no more shut away from us than it was from the devoted Enoch. {HP 70.5}

MM: This light is symbolic of the truth as it is in Jesus.

LHU 78
Never had angels listened to such a prayer. They were solicitous to bear to the praying Redeemer messages of assurance and love. But no; the Father Himself will minister to His Son. Direct from the throne proceeded the light of the glory of God. The heavens were opened, and beams of light and glory proceeded therefrom and assumed the form of a dove, in appearance like burnished gold. The dovelike form was emblematical of the meekness and gentleness of Christ. {LHU 78.5}

MM: This was literal light.

ML 8
The light of the glory of God that shines in the face of Christ may shine upon us, and be reflected upon all around, so that it can be truly said of us, "Ye are the light of the world." And it is this connection of the soul with Christ, and this alone, that can bring light to the world. Were it not for this connection, the earth would be left in utter darkness. . . . The deeper the surrounding gloom, the brighter should shine out the light of Christian faith and Christian example. {ML 8.2}

MM: This light is symbolic of the truth as it is in Jesus.

ML 33
Let us raise our eyes to the open door of the sanctuary above, where the light of the glory of God shines in the face of Christ, who "is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him." {ML 33.5}

MM: This light is symbolic of the truth as it is in Jesus.

OHC 128
Whenever tempted, we have this open door to behold. No power can hide from us the light of the glory which shines from the threshold of heaven along the whole length of the ladder we are to climb; for the Lord has given us strength in His strength, courage in His courage, light in His light. When the powers of darkness are overcome, when the light of the glory of God floods the world, we shall see and understand more clearly than we do today. If we only realized that the glory of God is round about us, that heaven is nearer earth than we suppose, we should have a heaven in our homes while preparing for the heaven above. {OHC 128.4}

MM: This light is symbolic of the truth as it is in Jesus.

1SM 411
The light of the glory of God shone upon our Representative, and this fact says to us that the glory of God may shine upon us. With His human arm, Jesus encircled the race, and with His divine arm He grasped the throne of the Infinite, connecting man with God, and earth with heaven. The light of the glory of God must fall upon us. We need the holy unction from on high. {1SM 411.1}

MM: This light is symbolic of the truth as it is in Jesus.

TDG 204
It is your privilege to help those who need help, to speak words of encouragement to those who need encouragement. Bear in mind that you are to show to the world the light of the glory of God.--Letter 206, July 14, 1908, a personal testimony. {TDG 204.4}

MM: This light is symbolic of the truth as it is in Jesus.

Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Tom] #101009
07/19/08 11:24 PM
07/19/08 11:24 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
PS - Do you agree certain forms of light can give and take life depending on the substance it shines on? And, do you agree that the light that shines out from Gods physical presence would incinerate sinful flesh? For example:

GC 656
"And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the Lord shall be among them; and they shall lay hold everyone on the hand of his neighbor, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbor." Zechariah 14:12, 13 . . . At the coming of Christ the wicked are blotted from the face of the whole earth--consumed with the spirit of His mouth and destroyed by the brightness of His glory. {GC 657.1}

Exodus
33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

EW 54
I saw a throne, and on it sat the Father and the Son. I gazed on Jesus' countenance and admired His lovely person. The Father's person I could not behold, for a cloud of glorious light covered Him. I asked Jesus if His Father had a form like Himself. He said He had, but I could not behold it, for said He, "If you should once behold the glory of His person, you would cease to exist." {EW 54.2}

Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Mountain Man] #101016
07/20/08 01:30 AM
07/20/08 01:30 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
John wrote:

 Quote:
In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.(John 1)


This is speaking to the truths that we have been discussing. Life is in Christ. He is the light.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Tom] #101020
07/20/08 02:15 AM
07/20/08 02:15 AM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Regarding the SOP and the light of the glory of God, here is how the "Desire of Ages" begins:

 Quote:
"His name shall be called Immanuel, . . . God with us." "The light of the knowledge of the glory of God" is seen "in the face of Jesus Christ." From the days of eternity the Lord Jesus Christ was one with the Father; He was "the image of God," the image of His greatness and majesty, "the outshining of His glory." It was to manifest this glory that He came to our world. To this sin-darkened earth He came to reveal the light of God's love,--to be "God with us." Therefore it was prophesied of Him, "His name shall be called Immanuel."

By coming to dwell with us, Jesus was to reveal God both to men and to angels. He was the Word of God,--God's thought made audible. In His prayer for His disciples He says, "I have declared unto them Thy name,"--"merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,"--"that the love wherewith Thou hast loved Me may be in them, and I in them." But not alone for His earthborn children was this revelation given. Our little world is the lesson book of the universe. God's wonderful purpose of grace, the mystery of redeeming love, is the theme into which "angels desire to look," and it will be their study throughout endless ages. Both the redeemed and the unfallen beings will find in the cross of Christ their science and their song. It will be seen that the glory shining in the face of Jesus is the glory of self-sacrificing love. In the light from Calvary it will be seen that the law of self-renouncing love is the law of life for earth and heaven; that the love which "seeketh not her own" has its source in the heart of God; and that in the meek and lowly One is manifested the character of Him who dwelleth in the light which no man can approach unto.


This is speaking of the same theme. The character of God is revealed in Jesus Christ. This was the purpose of Christ's mission. The whole chapter develops this theme. Actually the whole book deals with it.

Here are some SOP references to the light of the glory of God, which look to me to be referring to Christ (or the Holy Spirit, Christ's personal representative).

The heavenly dove would hover over us. The Sun of Righteousness would shine upon us, and the light of the glory of God would no more be shut from us than it was from the devoted Enoch.(Manuscript 1, 1869)

No power can hide from us the light of the glory which shines from the threshold of heaven along the whole length of the ladder we are to climb; for the Lord has given us strength in His strength, courage in His courage, light in His light. When the powers of darkness are overcome, when the light of the glory of God floods the world, we shall see and understand more clearly than we do today. If we only realized that the glory of God is round about us, that heaven is nearer earth than we suppose, we should have a heaven in our homes while preparing for the heaven above. (OHC 128)

The light of the glory of God must fall upon us. We need the holy unction from on high. However intelligent, however learned a man may be, he is not qualified to teach unless he has a firm hold on the God of Israel.(Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers 278)

Christ has made it possible for you to practice His life. You have His precious words in the Bible; believe in them, carry out their teachings. Never doubt the word of God. This word, if received into your life, will refine and sanctify you, and increase your usefulness. It is your privilege to help those who need help, to speak words of encouragement to those who need encouragement. Bear in mind that you are to show to the world the light of the glory of God.--Letter 206, July 14, 1908,

The meekness, the patience, the forbearance, the love of Christ must be revealed in the homes of the land. The church must arise and shine. Radiant with the Spirit and power of the truth, the people of God must go forth to a world lying in darkness, to make manifest the light of the glory of God.(Ye Shall Receive Power 152)

This will ever be the effect upon the human mind when the beams of the Sun of Righteousness shine gloriously upon the soul. The light of the glory of God will reveal all the hidden evil, and bring the soul to the place of humble confession. As the increasing glory of Christ is revealed, the human agent will see no glory in himself; for the concealed deformity of his soul is laid bare, and self-esteem and self-glorying are extinguished. Self dies, and Christ lives.(BE 12/3/94)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Tom] #101100
07/22/08 04:42 PM
07/22/08 04:42 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Now that we agree there are times when the phrase is referring to literal light we should be able to look at whether or not it can add to and take away life from saints and sinners. Do you agree that the unveiled light that radiates from God's physical presence incinerates sinful flesh but does not harm sinless flesh? If so, what makes the difference?

Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Mountain Man] #101107
07/22/08 09:04 PM
07/22/08 09:04 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
MM, it's clear from the context that the light of the glory of God is referring to Jesus Christ. I've pointed out that "light" = "revelation" and "glory" = "character." The very next sentence(!) she writes of Christ as "the revealer of the character of God." If this doesn't convince you, I don't see what would.

Also, that Jesus Christ gives life to the righteous should be clear enough. You believe He does this, don't you?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Tom] #101149
07/24/08 01:16 AM
07/24/08 01:16 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Yes, Jesus is the source of life and light. He will resurrect the saints, He will breathe into their nostrils the breath of life, He will give them free access to the tree of life and the water of life. They will be able to dwell in the presence of the glorious light that radiates from His physical being without being consumed by it.

Now, moving on - Do you agree that the unveiled light that radiates from God's physical presence incinerates sinful flesh but does not harm sinless flesh? If so, what makes the difference?

Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Mountain Man] #101161
07/24/08 04:46 PM
07/24/08 04:46 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
MM, do you not see any spiritual significance to Christ's being light and life? Or do you see this as only literal?

It seems to me that you see these things as at the very least primarily literal. I don't. I see these statements as dealing primarily with spiritual matters. I think we are talking past each other quite a bit because of this difference in understanding.

For example, when you speak of "unveiled light" you think of literal physical light, as opposed to the glory of God's character, which is something spiritual. I see the problem of the wicked as being a spiritual one.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Tom] #101490
08/11/08 04:57 PM
08/11/08 04:57 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, I suppose there is a spiritual element to the light of God's glory, but do you agree there is also a physical aspect? Do you agree the light that shines forth from God consumes sinful flesh but not sinless flesh? If so, what makes the difference?

Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Mountain Man] #101512
08/12/08 03:40 AM
08/12/08 03:40 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
Tom, I suppose there is a spiritual element to the light of God's glory, but do you agree there is also a physical aspect?


As SDA's, we believe the man is a whole, interconnected, so of course the spiritual has a physical influence.

 Quote:
Do you agree the light that shines forth from God consumes sinful flesh but not sinless flesh? If so, what makes the difference?


I think you're barking up the wrong tree here. It's not an issue of the flesh, but of the mind.

 Quote:
In the time of John the Baptist, Christ was about to appear as the revealer of the character of God. His very presence would make manifest to men their sin. Only as they were willing to be purged from sin could they enter into fellowship with Him. Only the pure in heart could abide in His presence. (AD 108)


Only the "pure in heart" could abide in Christ's presence. This is a "heart" issue, not a "flesh" issue.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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