One cannot read words like "The wrath of the Father" and "The penalty for sin" and assume that we understand those words detached from what the entirety of the Bible has to say about these topics. The Old Testament had dozens of examples that culminate in the beautiful summary of what God's wrath is in Romans chapter one. The dying words of Jesus are very significant in this sense, "My God, my God, why have you given me up."

"We are not to regard God as waiting to punish the sinner for his sin. The sinner brings the punishment upon himself. His own actions start a train of circumstances that bring the sure result. Every act of transgression reacts upon the sinner, works in him a change of character, and makes it more easy for him to transgress again. By choosing to sin, men separate themselves from God, cut themselves off from the channel of blessing, and the sure result is ruin and death." Letter 96, 1896

"God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown." The Great Controversy 36

"This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is ‘alienated from the life of God.’ Christ says, ‘All they that hate Me love death.’ Ephesians 4:18; Proverbs 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them." The Desire of Ages 764 (1898)

The "penalty for sin" is severe indeed but why do we insist that God is the one who deals out the punishment. Sin pays the wage, not God. When we separate ourselves from God there is a natural consequence of "punishment" and "penalty".

“You have brought this on yourself by abandoning the LORD your God when he led you on his way… Your own wickedness will correct you, and your unfaithful ways will punish you. You should know and see how evil and bitter it is for you if you abandon the LORD your God...” (Jeremiah 2:17-19 – GN)

“Judah, you have brought this on yourself by the way you have lived and by the things you have done. Your sin has caused this suffering; it has stabbed you through the heart.” (Jeremiah 4:18 – GN)

“The LORD says, ‘I have abandoned Israel; I have rejected my chosen nation. I have given the people I love into the power of their enemies.’” (Jeremiah 12:7 – GN)

“The LORD has abandoned his people like a lion that leaves its cave. [what is the result?] The horrors of war and the LORD's fierce anger have turned the country into a desert.” (Jeremiah 25:38 – GN)

“You will feel my anger when I turn it loose on you like a blazing fire”…[what actually happened?]…“And I will hand you over to brutal men, experts at destruction” (Ezekiel 21:31).

“I will attack the people of Israel and Judah like a lion. I myself will tear them to pieces and then leave them. When I drag them off, no one will be able to save them. [Does God attack his people like an angry lion? We read on for clarification.]I will abandon my people until they have suffered enough for their sins and come looking for me. Perhaps in their suffering they will try to find me” (Hosea 5:14,15).

And, I'm sorry for making this long, but this relationship between God's wrath and his abandoning (because giving people freedom to leave his side is the only loving thing to do!) is seen all through the Bible:

“My anger will flame up like fire and burn everything on earth. It will reach to the world below and consume the roots of the mountains. I will bring on them endless disasters and use all my arrows against them…The LORD will take revenge and punish them…” (Deuteronomy 32:22,23,34 – GN).

What happens when God pours out his anger and shoots his arrows and takes revenge? Read on:

“They fail to see why they were defeated; they cannot understand what happened. Why were a thousand defeated by one, and ten thousand by only two? The Lord, their God, had abandoned them; their mighty God had given them up” (Deuteronomy 32:29,30).

And again in this same passage in Deuteronomy:

“When that happens, I will become angry with them; I will abandon them, and they will be destroyed. Many terrible disasters will come upon them, and then they will realize that these things are happening to them because I, their God, am no longer with them.” (Deuteronomy 31:17 – GN)

Because they had been shielded by divine power they had not realized the countless dangers by which they were continually surrounded. In their ingratitude and unbelief they had anticipated death, and now the Lord permitted death to come upon them. The poisonous serpents that infested the wilderness were called fiery serpents, on account of the terrible effects produced by their sting, it causing violent inflammation and speedy death. As the protecting hand of God was removed from Israel, great numbers of the people were attacked by these venomous creatures. (PP 429)

You want me to believe that when you wrote, "Thank you for stating the obvious" that this wasn't sarcasm? Do you have any bridges to sell as well?

I'm asking the (second) question tongue-in-cheek, MM, but, seriously, you should be able to reconize that what you wrote is sarcasm.

I'm computer hampered for the time being. You should be able to find this easier than I could, as you no doubt have a faster computer than I do. Try doing a search on "fiery serpents" on an EGW site. If you can't find it easily, please let me know.

The murmurings of the children of Israel were unreasonable, and the unreasonable always go to extremes. They uttered falsehoods in saying that they had no bread nor water. They had both given them by a miracle of God's mercy. To punish them for their ingratitude, and complaining against God, the Lord permitted fiery serpents to bite them. They were called fiery, because their bite produced painful inflammation, and speedy death. The Israelites, up to this time, had been preserved from these serpents in the wilderness, by a continual miracle; for the wilderness through which they traveled was infested with poisonous serpents. {4aSG 41.1}

Moses told the people, that God had hitherto preserved them, that they had not been harmed by the serpents, which was a token of his care for them. He told them it was because of their needless murmurings, complaining of the hardships in their journey, that God had permitted them to be bitten of serpents. This was to show them that God had preserved them from many and great evils, which if he had permitted to come upon them, they would have suffered that which they could call hardships. But God had prepared the way before them. There was no sickness among them. Their feet had not swollen in all their journeys, neither had their clothes waxed old. God had given them angels' food, and purest water out of the flinty rock. And with all these tokens of his love, if they complained, he would send his judgments upon them for their ingratitude, and make them to realize his past merciful care for them, of which they had been unmindful. {4aSG 41.2}

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

This was during his lifetime, not 40 years after.


If by "Jesus" you mean "God," then yes, they did.

Do you recall the incident of the cursed tree? That was an object lesson of the same thing.

I think you're kind of missing the forest through the trees. There's a general principle involved, which you're trying to make too specific. The general principle is that we need God's protection. Without it, all sorts of bad things can happen. According to the SOP, there are a thousand different things that can happen. One shouldn't need to shall all thousand to illustrate the principle. That Jesus taught that we need God's protection should be evident.

When Jesus gave permission for the evil spirits to enter the pigs, what happened? That's a good example of the principle.

Jesus wanted to teach a lesson by resurrecting Lazarus. Jesus had to leave so that Lazarus would die. Why? The answer to this question is another example of the principle.

The Great Controversy is a war between two parties. One causes destruction in many ways, and blames to the other for what he does. The other party *only does good*. Always.

One is "the destroyer." The other is "the restorer."

MM: At times I am tempted to think certain aspects of [the laws of Moses] were unfair. But I immediately recognize such thoughts as the voice of Satan.

TE: Maybe you're confusing voices here.

MM: Which voice are you referring to? Please explain what you mean. Thank you.

TE: The one you mentioned in your post.

MM: Does the law of Moses address men grabbing men's secret places? If not specifically addressed, then wouldn't it be implied?

TE: Are you asking if it is implied that men's hands should be cut off? No, it's not implied. Men and women were treated very differently. Many credit Jesus Christ with raising the standard of treatment for women. Some cultures still treat women poorly, according to similar customs that the Hebrews had. God was working to enlighten them, but He had to work with their ignorance and could only reveal so much at a time. Jesus Christ was no hindered by ignorance or hardness of heart, so His revelation of God was perfect. He was a "greater than Moses."

MM: Again, polygamy and capital punishment do not violate the law of God when administered in harmony with the law of Moses. I don't know about lying and stealing. Ananias and Sapphira didn't make out so well when they lied and stole.

TE: According to the statement I've cited a number of times now, polygamy is a sin, contrary to the law of God, never sanctioned in a single instance. Aren't you suggesting that the law of Moses sanctioned it?

MM: I'm not suggesting it, Tom. I'm clearly saying polygamy is part of the law of Moses. My question to you is - Was it a sin for a man to have more than one wife at a time if he acted in harmony with the law of Moses?

TE: The law of Moses does not define sin. Sin is defined by the moral law, the 10 commandments. This is what EGW was referring to when she wrote that it was a "violation of the law of God." Polygamy is a violation of the seventh commandment, which protects marriage.

You have agreed that polygamy is a sin, or did before. I started this thread because you argued that it was not a sin breaking the last six commandments, but only breaking the first four, which I thought was quite an odd theory. Still do.

MM: You have made it plain you believe God permitted it, but you have not plainly answered whether or not it was a sin in the eyes of God. What do you think?

TE: I think the quote I've provided a whole host of times by Ellen White should be clear enough. It was a "violation of the law of God," "contrary to His will," and "not sanctioned by God in a single instance." I don't understand what's not clear about this. I don't understand why you keep asking about this again and again. What is unclear here?