Of course Jesus wants us to stop sinning, sinning always ends up hurting us. Not only that but we want to stop sinning. And we should always aim for that mark. But we are so fallen that we cant stop sinning. Thats why Jesus came down to do it for us. And of course thats why He came down not in our fallen nature. If He had our broken nature He would have sinned too. Thank God He was radically different then we are.

"He was a mighty petitoner, possessing not the passions of our human, fallen natures, but compassed with like infirmities, tempted in all points even as we are."
Review and Herald Aug 17, 1886 pg 513

Aaron

Good thinking.

I did answer both of your questions. A yes or a no would confuse you as to what I believe. Of course Jesus wants us to stop sinning. That is a ridiculous question and shows how you typically misunderstand and misrepresent what I say. And of course Jesus has the power to give us the victory, but I explained that He does it while respecting our freedom and that the problem isn’t with Him, but with us.

Now you answer my question. Have you ever met a man who has stopped sinning?

In your posts you assume that obedience is the most important thing for God’s creatures, but God could have easily made us to obey with no problem. Obedience isn’t the issue in God’s kingdom! It is obedience in love!

In reality freedom is the most important aspect of creature-hood simply because love can only exist in an environment of freedom. So in order for God to change us He has to either change our minds, by convincing us of His love, or extract our brain and replace it with an obedient one. If you think getting us to submit is all God has to do you better think again! God could do that through torture! We can submit all we want, but until we are convinced in our hearts of the truth about God’s love all we are are dry drunks just longing for the next fix of sin, but knowing that is might kill us!

scott

Let's tackle this little tidbit first.

Let me see if I got this right. I misunderstood and misrepresented you by asking you questions? I asked you a question so that you can make yourself understood, yet I misrepresented you? I asked, you answered, but I misrepresented you? Did I force you to type what you did? Pretty soon you might blame me for your typos.

If you would answer clearly, then maybe people won't misunderstand you. And if you were not so judgmental of those who you think disagree with you, perhaps you might not find as much to disagree about.


See, that wasn't so hard, was it? Your answers are: yes, yes. Simple, clear, to the point. I don't see why you think that would be confusing.

And I agree with you.


I agree with you again.

(See how fun it could be to agree with people when they say something you agree with?)


I don't think so. But if we really want to be precise, we need to determine what constitutes "sinning" in your question. But that's for another thread.

However, Jesus told me something about that: What is that to you? You follow Me.


First, I don't think you know me well enough to know what I assume. I know I don't know you well enough, so I ask what you mean, so I don't assume or presume anything about you. You would do well to ask instead of assuming.

Second, my definition of obedience has love at its core. There is no such thing as obedience without love. Without love, the best one can get is compliance, never obedience. It may be that you have a different understanding of obedience. So if you're talking about a kind of obedience that does not include love, that is foreign to my theology. In my view, obedience is always a good thing.

(Side note: This is something I learned while studying the inspired material on child training. So much "discipline" is really just beating kids into submission. There is little "discipling" going on. When one receives Godly disipline, he learns how to be a true disciple - one who loves to be with Jesus and follows Him wherever He goes. It's as true for church members as it is for children. Unfortunately, many still have a hireling's understanding of obedience.)


This looks similar to what I wrote regarding obedience.

Christian submission, as I understand it from the Bible and SOP, is always voluntary and can be rescinded at any time. It is always done with full knowledge of the situation (count the cost).

The submission that most people have in mind is really just bondage. They see submission as being forced to do that which you do not want to do. It is the kind of submission that many parents beat their kids into.

This is not what God has in mind for His children. We submit to Him because we choose to trust His love and wisdom, knowing that He can do a much better job than we can. We submit to Him as a free moral agent, knowing full well that we are able to disregard His will at any time, and free to suffer the consequences of such foolishness.

(Side note: This is the same kind of submission that Paul said wives should give their husbands. Many women think it is degrading. But Jesus showed by His life of complete submission that it is noble.)

So if what you have in mind is a submission that is forced from unwilling men, you are talking about something my Jesus wants nothing to do with. The submission He wants is one between loving Father and trusting son. In my view, that submission is always a good thing.

I haven’t met one either. I’ve asked that question many times and no one has ever given me a “yes” answer. So I haven’t met anyone who has met a man or woman who has stopped sinning.

Conclusion: If we don’t know anyone who is sinless, yet we teach that sinless-ness is necessary and that there is something wrong with a Christian’s experience if he/she hasn’t “arrived” then there is a gap between our theology and our experience. And that gap becomes a source of self doubt that can destroy our walk with God. It becomes easy to fall for the lie that we will never measure up.

There exists among Adventists an identity crisis that is directly related to this gap between our experience and our theology. The fact is that the NT teaches us that anyone who claims to be sinless is a liar. Some say that the real sinless ones won’t say it, but the text makes it clear that we are all sinners saved by God’s grace and each one of us is working with the Holy Spirit at our own pace to heal from the damage of sin. This process takes a life time.

This truth in no way means that there isn’t power available to the sinner to overcome nor does it mean that it is ok to sin. But it is ok to be a sinner saved by grace. In fact all heaven rejoices when a sinner repents. I am convinced that those who dwell on sinless-ness have no idea of the depth of sin. It is like a toddler claiming that he understands physics because he knows that when he drops a ball it hits the ground.

scott

Excellent post Scott. Thank you.

Thanx for the warning, Scott. But did I post something above that you disagree with?

"But we are so fallen that we cant stop sinning. Thats why Jesus came down to do it for us." Aaron, how do you reconcile what you wrote with what Ellen wrote in the quotes I posted in the post above this one?

Scott, when do you think this “work” is completed in sinners – before or after they are taken to heaven?


The religious leaders accused Jesus of being demon possessed. Perhaps humans are not the best ones to assess who has stopped sinning. Yes, Jesus said, “By their fruits ye shall know them”, but it doesn’t mean every human makes the right and best and correct assessment.


The truth is true whether humans experience it or not. Human failure is not the standard by which we judge the truthfulness of the promises of perfection and sinlessness. Jesus is the standard by which we judge the truth. The fact He never sinned is evidence the promises are true and attainable.


Isn’t that what you have been advocating? That is, haven’t you been arguing that it is not possible to “measure up” in this lifetime, that we will not stop sinning until we are in heaven?


I assume you are referring to the following passage:

1 John
1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

This passage does not say sinners cannot learn to stop sinning. Nor does it say anyone who stops sinning is a liar. Instead, what it means is “all have sinned” and anyone who says they “have not sinned” is a liar. It’s specifically addressing past sins. Contrary to what you implied, it says, “If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.” In other words, anyone who walks in darkness and says they have a relationship with Jesus is lying and is not practicing the truth. This implies practicing the truth means not sinning, not walking in darkness. It also implies maturing in the fruits of the Spirit on a daily basis.


Jesus said He came to save sinners “from their sins”, whereas I get the impression you are saying Jesus came to sinners in their sins. In arguing against Ellen’s statements about being perfect now and forever, about not sinning, you seem to be saying sin is so systemic, so pervasive, that it cannot be overcome in this lifetime. Have I misunderstood you? Tom, if you’re reading this, please let Scott answer this question for himself. Thank you.

Also, the following passages make it clear to me that God empowers people to live without sinning now – not only at the end of a lifetime of sinning less and less often.

1 John
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John
5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1 Peter
4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

2 Peter
2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Philippians
1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:
2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

Galatians
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Aaron and Scott, please address the above posts. Thank you.