The glory of God revealed in Jesus does not initially cause the resurrected to suffer and die. How do you explain this?

It sounds like you think God's character is a conscious, cognizant disembodied being.

The difference in the effect of the three sources of fire Ellen speaks of in relation to the punishment and destruction of the wicked in the lake of fire and the quote you posted above is night and day. Compare with the following quote:

Satan rushes into the midst, and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and the mighty men, and the noble, and poor and miserable men, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering was there. Said the angel, The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon. {1SG 217.1}

But Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan not only bore the weight and punishment of his sins, but the sins of all the redeemed host had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of the souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan, and all the wicked host, were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, Amen! {1SG 218.1}

Because it hasn't been revealed yet.



It sounds like you think law and justice are sentient beings, by the way you use these terms, but I'm not aware of using such language myself in regards to God's character. Perhaps you could quote something.



I agree that superficially they are quite different. However, if she is not contradicting herself, there must be a way of reconciling these statements. I don't see that you have made any attempt to do so. I still have no idea what you think DA 764 means, or GC 543.

DA 108 speaks of how the light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, destroys the wicked. The same thing that gives life to the one slays the other. This can't be fire. You have some theory about photosynthesis which seems like a desperate stretch. The very next sentence speaks of Jesus Christ as the "revealer of the character of God." Do you think this is just coincidence? I just lucked out, and she happened by chance to say exactly the same thing I've been saying? ("light"="revelation", "glory"="character")

She says the glory of Him who is love will destroy them, after explaining half a dozen times that the destruction of the wicked is NOT due God's doing something to them arbitrarily, but rather a result of their own choice. If what you are suggesting were true, this would be exactly wrong. Their death WOULD be true to something God is doing them (killing them with fire; capital punishment as you call it) and NOT due to their own decision. Also it would be odd in the extreme to characterize this as being destroyed by the glory of Him who is love.

The GC quote says the exclusion of the wicked is voluntary with themselves. This means it is something they choose. I haven't seen anything at all in your presentation of your view which accounts for this.

Finally you've agreed that GC 536 agrees with your view, except for the duration:



However, if one looks at the surrounding paragraphs, it is clear that the duration of the wicked's suffering is not the only problem with this view.

Have you no idea which quote I’m referring to? It’s GC 662-674. Listen:


This passage (above) makes it abundantly clear that the wicked are not consumed or destroyed by the radiant glory of God as revealed in Jesus.


You believe it is God’s character, not God, that causes the wicked to suffer and die in the lake of fire. You also believe it is sin, not God, that causes the wicked to suffer and die in the lake of fire. There are dozens of places where the SOP uses expressions like "the law requires" and "justice demands". But where does she say "God's character is what causes the wicked to suffer"?


The light of God’s radiant glory is light. Like sunlight, the light of God’s radiant glory can give life or take life. Sinful flesh cannot abide in the light of God’s radiant glory, whereas, sinless flesh can. God veils the radiant light of His glory so as not to cause sinners to die. When the wicked turn their rage upon Satan, as described in GC 671.2 (quoted above), God rains down fire from above and raises up fire from below, and together with the fire light of God’s radiant glory, the wicked suffer in proportion and in duration to their sinfulness, then they finally die.


There are more dissimilarities in her explanation of Catholic hellfire and her description of the lake of fire than there are similarities. You’re desire and attempt to discredit my view of the lake of fire is admirable, but you are far from the truth, brother. Rather than trying so hard to make it look like my view resembles Catholic hellfire, please stick with what I am saying about it. Thank you.

EW 294, 295
Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294.2}

Said the angel, "Satan is the root, his children are the branches. They are now consumed root and branch. They have died an everlasting death. They are never to have a resurrection, and God will have a clean universe." I then looked and saw the fire which had consumed the wicked, burning up the rubbish and purifying the earth. Again I looked and saw the earth purified. There was not a single sign of the curse. {EW 295.1}

MM, you're not taking into account DA 764, DA 107-108, or GC 543. We're just going around in circles here.

Here's what I believe:
a.The prophets saw things in vision (e.g. John in Revelation, Ellen White in Early Writings, etc.)
b.They wrote those things down
c.These visions are not purely literal

There are some things which are literal, and some not. Much of what is written is not literal. It's not always easy to figure out what's what. In regards to the destruction of the wicked, if you talk to 100 people, you'll probably get close to 100 different ideas as to precisely what is going to happen. I've heard many different theories. Yours is the most harsh I've ever heard. I don't know of anyone who see things exactly as I do, in every detail.

The principles I'm following is to take the different sources, try to piece them together, and get a theory that makes sense with all the data. I believe my theory comes close to doing that. There are still a couple of things I'm not sure about it, but I like the fact that it fits in perfectly with DA 107-108, GC 543 and DA 764. Since these are the passages which explain most clearly what's going on (they are not symbolic descriptions of events seen in vision) I use these as a base and try to fit in the symbolic visions to that. I also consider what I know of God's character as revealed in Scripture, especially by Jesus Christ, and take that into consideration to come up with a viable theory.

I don't see your approach as doing any of this. You seem to ignore everything except these passages you quote, passages which are a combination of literal and symbolic which, IMO, you take much too literally. For example, the idea that God will supernaturally keep people alive so that He can burn them by literal fire I found abhorrent, and having nothing whatsoever to do with the character of God revealed by Jesus Christ. I see it as being identical to the description in GC 536, exception for duration, a point which you have agreed with me on. I see this as very problematic, because the passage in GC 536 and surrounding is not dealing solely with duration. It deals with the issues of cruelty and compassion, which I don't see you taking into consideration.

I'll see if I can present some thoughts from someone else, just to get another perspective involved.

I'm not sure how God will cause sinners to suffer in proportion and in duration to their sinfulness. The Bible and SOP simply say it will happen. Taking into account DA 764, DA 107-108, GC 543, and GC chapter 42 the SOP describes 3 sources of fire involved in the execution of judgment - 1) fire rained down from above, 2) fire raised up from below, and 3) the fire light of God's radiant glory. None of these sources of fire are symbolic.

The fact the resurrected sinners are not initially consumed by the radiant glory of Christ is evidence He is veiling it. See Gc chapter 42.

PS - Ellen is interpreting prophecy in GC chapter 42. She's not employing symbolism to explain symbolic prophecy. Her description is literal.

Ellen is clearly interpreting things literally in the following passages:

Every eye in that vast multitude is turned to behold the glory of the Son of God. With one voice the wicked hosts exclaim: "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord!" {GC 662.2}

Now Christ again appears to the view of His enemies. Far above the city, upon a foundation of burnished gold, is a throne, high and lifted up. Upon this throne sits the Son of God, and around Him are the subjects of His kingdom. The power and majesty of Christ no language can describe, no pen portray. The glory of the Eternal Father is enshrouding His Son. The brightness of His presence fills the City of God, and flows out beyond the gates, flooding the whole earth with its radiance. {GC 665.1}

As soon as the books of record are opened, and the eye of Jesus looks upon the wicked, they are conscious of every sin which they have ever committed. They see just where their feet diverged from the path of purity and holiness, just how far pride and rebellion have carried them in the violation of the law of God. The seductive temptations which they encouraged by indulgence in sin, the blessings perverted, the messengers of God despised, the warnings rejected, the waves of mercy beaten back by the stubborn, unrepentant heart--all appear as if written in letters of fire. {GC 666.2}

Notwithstanding that Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God's justice and to bow to the supremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged. The spirit of rebellion, like a mighty torrent, again bursts forth. Filled with frenzy, he determines not to yield the great controversy. The time has come for a last desperate struggle against the King of heaven. He rushes into the midst of his subjects and endeavors to inspire them with his own fury and arouse them to instant battle. But of all the countless millions whom he has allured into rebellion, there are none now to acknowledge his supremacy. His power is at an end. The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them. {GC 671.2}

Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

The suffering that happens isn't something arbitrary that God does to sinners. They suffer in proportion to their sin, because sin brings suffering! The more sin, the more suffering. The suffering, just like condemnation, comes with the sin.



This isn't dealing with the issues I raised. DA 108 speaks of the same thing which gives life to the righteous being what slays the wicked. The "light of the glory of God" is Jesus Christ, the "revealer of God's character." That my interpretation is correct can be seen by the fact that she identifies Christ as "the revealer of God's character," immediately after speaking of "the light of the glory of God" which "gives life to the righteous" (it is Jesus Christ who does this!).



I don't disagree with this at all. Where I differ with you is regarding of what the glory of God consists of.

Actually the whole difference I see in our view of things in regards to the judgment is that you see it in physical rather than spiritual terms.

GC 543 brings out the exclusion of the wicked from heaven is voluntary with themselves. It's not dealing with fire at all.

DA 764 brings out how the destruction of the wicked is due to their own choice, so is similar to GC 543 in this regard. It also brings out that it is the "result of sin," something they are "left to reap." Surely if I killed you by igniting you with a flamethrower, this could not be described in the terms of the passages in GC 543, DA 108 and DA 764.

There is also the problem of GC 536.



The surrounding paragraphs should be considered as well. The issue here is deeper than simply one of duration. She characterizes the burning of the wicked with fire as "torture." If this burning is a matter of days our hours, rather than ceaseless, it would nonetheless still be "torture."

The wages of sin is instant death - not a lifetime of suffering. The reasons sinners live on to suffer the consequences of sinning is because God implemented the plan of salvation. Otherwise, they would have been immediately blotted out of existence.

The thing that is not arbitrary about God punishing and destroying sinners in proportion and in duration to their sinfulness is the fact He didn't just wake up one day and decide to kill a bunch of sinners. God doesn't make up the rules on the fly. He is regulated by law and justice what He must do and what He must not do, namely, He must punish and destroy impenitent sinners according to their sinfulness and He must not pardon and save penitent sinners irrespective of their past sins. In other words, Jesus must pay their sin debt of death for death must come in consequence of their sins.


I had no idea you agree with me on this point. Surprise, surprise.


You will be happy to learn you are wrong about me. I believe several things are involved in the execution of justice upon sinners in the lake of fire - physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual. God wired humans in such a way it is impossible for them to face judgment without having to wrestle with all of these aspects of their makeup and constitution.

Regarding the nature of the light of God's radiant glory, you're right, we do not agree. I believe it is similar to sunlight in that it gives and takes life depending on the nature of the material substance it interacts with, namely, it gives life to those who possess sinless flesh and it takes life from those who possess sinful flesh.


Nor does it deal with death.


When a murderer is sentenced to death by lethal injection it is the result of breaking the law. He is left to reap the results of his choosing. So it is with divine justice. There is nothing arbitrary about God executing sinners. The penalty for sinning is death by fire. That's the law.


Even you agree it is the consuming fire of God's radiant glory that causes sinners to suffer and die. Whether His consuming fire is literal or symbolic doesn't really matter so far as the rightness of sinners suffering in proportion and in duration to their sinfulness. Some people whine and complain that God is cruel and tyrannical for resurrecting sinners instead of leaving well enough alone. Others accuse God of torturing sinners instead of simply withdrawing the breath of life and allowing them to die immediately.

Your view of God resurrecting sinners for the purpose of exposing them to His unveiled glory so that they can suffer in proportion and in duration to their sinfulness is considered by many people to be hideous and misrepresentative of God's glorious character. How do you defend your view of God and justice and judgment in light of these accusations? What is to be gain by resurrecting sinners? Why not leave them dead?

God is not regulated by the law as to what He must and must not do. Putting the law above God is idolatry.



This is what I meant by saying you see things in physical terms as opposed to spiritual. I don't see how anyone can read this:



and conclude this is dealing with physical light. First of all, the idea that physical light gives light to the righteous is odd. Secondly, it says "the revealer of the character of God." The context of "glory of God" here is clearly character. Given Ellen White says the glory of God is His character, you must accept that at least some of the time when she speaks of God's character, that's what she means. Now when she explicitly speaks of God's character, how do you try to make it mean something physical instead?

If you look at the whole context, the whole thing is spiritual:



There's absolutely nothing in any of this to suggest the idea that physical fire or light gives life to the righteous. Look where she says, "Only the pure in heart could abide in His presence." This is speaking of Jesus Christ in the flesh. He didn't have any radiant light shining from Him. This is talking about His character! Christ's presence makes manifest to men their sin. That's why they couldn't abide His presence. This is why they won't be able to abide His presence in the judgment as well. This is why the glory of Him who is love will destroy them, because His character will make manifest their sin; that's what they can't stand.



Sure it does. Have your read the passage?



The whole context is dealing with the death of the wicked.



This is an attempt to twist what DA 764 is saying to fit a paradigm which doesn't fit. For example:





It's hard to see how this passage could be interpreted more diametrically opposed to what it's saying than what you just said above. The big flaw I see in all your reasoning is that you perceive sin to be innocuous. It has no power to destroy or cause death. Sinners die not because there is anything destructive or bad about sin itself, but because God burns them.



I've invited you to start a thread on this subject. I asked this question about 5 years ago, I think, and it's still being discussed on another forum I visit. It's a very good question, so again, I'd invite you to start a thread to discuss it. A short comment is that your assertion here is totally false:



This is not my view! Once again, I'd invite you to quote something I've actually said. To be clear as to where your assertion is off is in regards to your use of the word "purpose." The purpose of the judgment is not to cause suffering or death. Suffering and death is an unfortunate consequence of sin, not something which God purposes. Given how vociferously I have argued against this idea, that God purposes suffering and death, it's odd that you would attribute this idea to me.