The Scriptures say all over the place that sin kills.
"The wages of sin is death."
"The soul that sins shall die."
"And sin, when it is finished, brings forth death."

This last one, by James, is especially clear.

John says:





This refers to "the fatal effects of sin." In other words, "sin kills!"

Note the last phrase: "Christ has power and virtue in Himself to heal the repenting sinner."

Tom, could MM be correct when you look at it that sin doesn't kill, but lack of the source of life kills? Of course, you would also be correct since God gives life, and when one separates himself from God (by sinning), he separates from the Lifegiver, and therefore, he dies.

But the description of the suffering and death of the wicked in the lake of fire does not portray them dying immediately when God pulls the plug. Instead, it portrays them suffering in proportion and in duration to their sinfulness first and then they die. Listen:

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294.2}

Said the angel, "Satan is the root, his children are the branches. They are now consumed root and branch. They have died an everlasting death. They are never to have a resurrection, and God will have a clean universe." I then looked and saw the fire which had consumed the wicked, burning up the rubbish and purifying the earth. Again I looked and saw the earth purified. {EW 295.1}

If sin didn't kill, then one could sin forever without dying. That would mean there is nothing intrinsically fatal about sin. The only reason that sinners would die would be because God killed them.

There's a big difference between viewing sin as something fatal, from which God saves us, because He loves us and doesn't want to see us die, and as seeing sin as something innocuous that results in death only because God kills those who do it.

We can accept the premise that sin kills, and express how it does so in different ways.

Death ends the problems sin causes us. "The dead know not any thing." Sinning is fatal in that it makes people miserable and hopeless. Death is freedom from the fatal consequences of sinning.

T: If sin didn't kill, then one could sin forever without dying.

M; That's why God barred access to the tree of life. "Now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever."

---

T: That would mean there is nothing intrinsically fatal about sin.

M: Sinning is fatal not only because it forces God to resurrect them and punish them according to their sinfulness but because they also live a life full of misery and hopelessness.

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T: The only reason that sinners would die would be because God killed them.

M: Remember, God must resurrect them in order to punish them according to their sinfulness. If sin kills then there would be no reason to resurrect them.

A1 A2
B1 B2

In comparing A to B, is it proper to compare A1 to B2?

No one has died-- except possibly One.

Could the the "living forever" be talking about the first life?
Could "sin killing" not result in the first death, since God has not withdrawn His lifegiving power?

Adam and Eve sinned, but did not die the first death for several hundred years. I just think there's a cross comparison being made, resulting in the confusion.

Here's what "fatal" means:



Death *is* the fatal consequence of sinning, not freedom from it.



The tree of life had special healing powers. Sin has "fatal effects," which are, um, fatal, unless action is taken to prevent them from occurring.



I think you're not understanding what "fatal" means. "Fatal" means "causes death." Sin is fatal because it causes death.



You assert:
a.The reason God must resurrect the wicked is in order to punish them according to their sinfulness
b.If sin kills, there would be no reason to resurrect them.

So you are asserting that if sin kills, then God does not need to resurrect the wicked in order to punish them according to their sinfulness. Why not?

I agree, kland. The death that sin causes which we are discussing is the second death, not the first. It's a spiritual problem, not a physical one (although, since man is indivisible, that which affects the spirit affects the physical).

Again, A&E did not die in the day they sinned because Jesus died in their place that same day. Also, they didn't live forever in a sinful state because God barred access to the tree of life.

GC 533
Had man after his fall been allowed free access to the tree of life, he would have lived forever, and thus sin would have been immortalized. But cherubim and a flaming sword kept "the way of the tree of life" (Genesis 3:24), and not one of the family of Adam has been permitted to pass that barrier and partake of the life-giving fruit. Therefore there is not an immortal sinner. {GC 533.3}