What I am suggesting is that ALL of us are intransigent to some degree. If we weren't, these discussions and disagreements that go on for years would only take moments. That means we are not blown about by every wind of doctrine.

But that also means that we must be vigilant to remind ourselves that there may be significant errors in our theology.


Perhaps. But is that any less humble than one having a high opinion of his knowledge of God's character and thereby determine what God will or will not do? Ain't we all impressed with ourselves!


Yes. But let's not allow what we believe to be common sense to be normative.

Jesus walked with a couple of disciples for quite a distance without allowing them to recognize Him. Why? I can't say for sure. But He did it anyway, even if it makes no sense to me.

While God wants me to have an intelligent faith, it is not to be based on exhaustive knowledge or complete understanding. His ways are still past finding out to me. It's a good thing that He doesn't make my understanding a prerequisite for His actions.

Could be. I try to be careful in how I couch my language, but could well be falling short. I don't really feel I understand God's character that well.



I'm not sure what you're saying here. I'm saying, if I read something which appears to be saying something that doesn't make sense, I think it through very carefully. Either it doesn't make sense because I'm thinking about something wrongly, or what I'm thinking is being said is not really what was meant. But just accepting something that doesn't make sense to us; I don't see the value in that. We should be able to give a reason for the things that we believe.

I suppose some people believe this way, but I don't. I believe we are saved while we are abiding in Jesus. If we are not abiding in Jesus we are not saved. It's that simple. To abide in Jesus we must consciously choose to do so. While abiding in Jesus people do and cannot sin.

Aaron,

Is it possible to commit sin while with Jesus? If one is in Christ, will he find sin there?

When you say sin do you mean Sin or sins? If you mean sins as in losing your temper while driving your car then regretting it then I would say yes one can commit a sin while being saved. Do you think that prior to getting in the car you were saved as long as you had previously asked forgiven since your last sin then the second you lost your temper then your lost until you then ask forgiveness for that sin? Or are you saying one in Christ would never even lose your temper......Cause if your saying that then we are all lost arent we? I dont really agree with the yo yo effect that I'm sensing here.

That's the boat I'm in. Hence, there are very few things about which I am comfortable saying, "That's goes against God's character." Selective, and possibly temporary, memory loss is not one of them.


What I mean is that we should not trust ourselves so much that we can make assertions as to what God will or will not do based on what we think is or is not common sense. As for me, my wisdom is foolishness to God.

There are certain things for which we must be able to give an answer to all who ask, especially in soteriology. But there are other things that we don't understand, but still have to take by faith. This is especially true for people who don't yet know everything God has taught in Scripture.

For example, my father does not keep the Sabbath. Why? Because he, along with the rest of his church, does not see any reason why God would require it. They believe that every day is as holy as any other. They are too proud to think that God can require their obedience before He requires their understanding.


Yes, there are secret things that are not revealed to us.

I mean whatever you mean by "an act of sin" in your previous post.


Though I don't know everyone here, I wouldn't say that. I've heard reports of people not losing their temper even when stones were being thrown at them. God's grace has been powerfully manifested in the experience of some.


You mean the "I'm nice because I'm in Jesus" then "I've lost my temper because I'm in Jesus" effect? I don't really agree with that either.

The experience I like is the "shines brighter until the perfect day" and "keeps me from falling" that the Bible describes.

We're not trusting in ourselves simply by trying to understand what God is communicating to us. If we read something, and it doesn't make sense to us, we have the duty to question it, and not simply accept it. God isn't looking for unthinking obedience, but trusting faith, based on an intelligent appreciation of His character.



I think I agree with your father, if I'm understand what you're saying correctly. That is, God doesn't require obedience before requiring understanding. What good would that do? Someone should be able to explain to your Father why God would have us remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy in a way that he can understand. Now if he refuses to listen, that's a different issue. But if he sees no reason to do something that he doesn't understand, I think he's right.



I don't know what the "yes" is in response to. Is it an answer to a question? Or just as affirmation?

Certainly there are secret things, but I take this as referring to items of speculation, like for example things about the afterlife which haven't been revealed. I don't see this as referring to anything that would require obedience on our part. Did you have something like this in mind?

That's an entirely different story from "I won't accept it because I don't understand it." Question it and try to make sense of it, no problem. Reject it if you don't get an answer that is acceptable to you, that's a problem.

Anyway, why do you require things of God that you don't require of physicists? You will accept Heisenberg's assertions without understanding why it is that way, and just accept that "that's just the way it is" but you can't accept God's assertions unless He explains it to your satisfaction.


Have you done an in-depth study of child training principles? Check out this passage:

My father doesn't agree with my principles of child training either.

Obedience should come before reason. When the child is capable of understanding, then reason should be enlisted on the side of obedience, obedience that is already there. To wait for understanding before teaching obedience is to give Satan a huge head start, because he doesn't mind unreasonable obedience to his commands.


Have you ever compared the disposition of a child who has been trained to regard his parents' word as law, to a child who has been trained to regard his parents' word as suggestions that he can choose to follow as he saw fit? One grows up feeling safe in the care of his parents, while the other one grows up in a constant state of stress because he is being cared for by the incompetent child in the mirror.


There's a long story that goes along with that. But to give you a hint at what's going on, he had a business associate to whom he gave clear directions. This person refused to do what he was told unless my father explained to him why he wanted it done. His words were, "I can easily do it, but first I want to know why I should do it." Did I say my father HAD a business associate?

But he sees no problem in disrespecting God in the same way.


I don't see any such restrictions in the verse. Before reason comes, we can be taught to obey. Even if reason never comes, we can still be taught to obey.

Anyway, if God wanted you to forget stuff, He won't need your obedience. It's not like you can choose to forget.

I would say neither reject it nor accept it, but keep thinking about it and studying the matter until it makes sense to you.



With God the question of understanding is relevant for a number of reasons. I'll mention two. One is the issues are moral; physics isn't. Two is God desires that His creatures render Him homage because they judge Him worthy of such. He doesn't wish to be honored because of His power or authority, but because of His character. We cannot love God as He desires to be loved (which is loving Him in truth) without understanding His character.



We're not discussing children but adults. To "obey" God without understanding what one is doing is robotic. This isn't what God desires.



This seems reasonable. If we made this request of God, He would explain why. That is, God will give us sufficient evidence as to why we should do what He asks us to do. He won't satisfy every possible question that could come up (not remove all hooks upon which we could hang our doubts, to use EGW's language) because He desires that we act on the basis of free will, and overwhelming someone with evidence would detract from that principles. But providing enough evidence so that a person open to do His will is able to do so is certainly something God does.



I'm not seeing the disrespect here (although I'm sure there's more going on here than what I'm aware of, so I'm not saying you're misjudging the situation, just that based on what you've said so far, I don't see the disrespect you are speaking of).



How is this not robotic?



To "obey" by doing things that have no basis in our reasoning would be the "slavish obedience" that God takes no pleasure in, wouldn't it?