I came across the building blocks of belief in the Adventist Movement and came across the tension between Calvinism and Arminianism. According to Calvinism:
"Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the Gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation."

Thus they stand against the freewill of man being turned to God on its own as seen in the following statement...
"... and I will go as far as Martin Luther, in that strong assertion of his, where he says, ‘If any man doth ascribe of salvation, even the very least, to the free will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright.’ It may seem a harsh sentiment; but he who in his soul believes that man does of his own free will turn to God, cannot have been taught of God, for that is one of the first principles taught us when God begins with us, that we have neither will nor power, but that He gives both; that He is ‘Alpha and Omega’ in the salvation of men." (Charles H. Spurgeon from the sermon ‘Free Will A Slave’ (1855) referring to Luther's book The Bondage of the Will which is listed with other resources on this topic after this article).

So is Adventism Arminian (Free will) or is there a middle ground?

Hi Richard,

I would say that you'll have a hard time putting all Adventists in one category, but I've always thought that we, in general and doctrinally, are Armenian. There are, however, many Adventists who tend toward Calvinism. Once we had a Calvinist come on a different forum and present his beliefs in a very direct way and one of the members, who happens to be an SDA pastor, agreed with everything he wrote not knowing that this man was a Calvinist. When someone pointed out that this man was presenting a Calvinist view the pastor was dumbfounded.

God offers salvation to all men and we determine if we love salvation or love evil. Both the Armenians and Calvinists believe that God judges us according to His grace. I suggest that we judge ourselves according to God's revelation of grace in Christ. God keeps no one out of heaven! All men are drawn, all men are invited, and all men's wills are empowered to choose God. Some simply refuse because they love evil! Everyone, in the end, gets what he/she really love.

scott

I was kind of shocked when I came across this tension between Calvinism and Arminianism as I have always been a believer in mans 'free will', but try to understand how God draws man to him. Here is a background on Arminianism as I myself had not really focused on this before, especially in terms of Adventism.

"Arminianism is a school of soteriological thought within Protestant Christianity based on the theological ideas of the Dutch Reformed theologian Jacobus Arminius (1560-1609)[1] and his historic followers, the Remonstrants. The doctrines' acceptance stretches through much of mainstream, evangelical Protestantism. Due to the influence of Anglican priest and evangelist John Wesley, Arminianism is perhaps most prominent in the Methodist movement.[citation needed]

Arminianism holds to the following tenets:

Humans are naturally unable to make any effort towards salvation (see also prevenient grace).
Salvation is possible only by God's grace, which cannot be merited.
No works of human effort can cause or contribute to salvation.
God's election is conditional on faith in the sacrifice and Lordship of Jesus Christ.
Christ's atonement was made on behalf of all people.
God allows his grace to be resisted by those who freely reject Christ.
Salvation can be lost, as continued salvation is conditional upon continued faith.

Arminianism is most accurately used to define those who affirm the original beliefs of Jacobus Arminius himself, but the term can also be understood as an umbrella for a larger grouping of ideas including those of Hugo Grotius, John and Charles Wesley, and others. There are two primary perspectives on how the system is applied in detail: Classical Arminianism, which sees Arminius as its figurehead, and Wesleyan Arminianism, which sees John Wesley as its figurehead. Wesleyan Arminianism is sometimes synonymous with Methodism. In addition, Arminianism is understood by some of its critics to also include Semipelagianism or even Pelagianism, though proponents of both primary perspectives vehemently deny these claims.

Within the broad scope of Church history, Arminianism is closely related to Calvinism (or Reformed theology), and the two systems share both history and many doctrines in common. Nonetheless, they are often viewed as rivals within Evangelicalism because of their disagreement over the doctrines of predestination and salvation....."

And some sites that explain the differences...
http://www.the-highway.com/compare.html
http://www.spreadinglight.com/theology/armvscal.html

Here is a good quote to go over...

Many are inquiring, "How am I to make the surrender of myself to God?" You desire to give yourself to Him, but you are weak in moral power, in slavery to doubt, and controlled by the habits of your life of sin. Your promises and resolutions are like ropes of sand. You cannot control your thoughts, your impulses, your affections. The knowledge of your broken promises and forfeited pledges weakens your confidence in your own sincerity, and causes you to feel that God cannot accept you; but you need not despair. What you need to understand is the true force of the will. This is the governing power in the nature of man, the power of decision, or of choice. Everything depends on the right action of the will. The power of choice God has given to men; it is theirs to exercise. You cannot change your heart, you cannot of yourself give to God its affections; but you can choose to serve Him. You can give Him your will; He will then work in you to will and to do according to His good pleasure. Thus your whole nature will be brought under the control of the Spirit of Christ; your affections will be centered upon Him, your thoughts will be in harmony with Him. {SC 47.1}

Adventism's roots were from Methodism, so Wesley's ideas had a lot of influence. In the last 50 to 60 years many ideas have come into the church which didn't exist before.

spurgeon, if i understand correctly was a calvinist. a calvinist, to me, is a person who believes in predestination.

the key words are,
do any of us turn to God "on our own", without Him first drawing us?

Which of the Pioneers were Methodist? Weren't James White and Uriah Smith something else?

Mrs White was Methodist. James was a Congregational minister. Actually I think it was called Christian Connexion at that point. But even they were an offshoot of Methodist. I think alot of our churches view on things like Salvation stem from Wesly. Im sure some here know much more then me about it. I think Woody Whidden has written some stuff on our Methodist roots, its at least an interest for him. One thing the Congregationalists were big on was Arianism. I believe James went to his grave believing Jesus was created. I think it comes out in some of Mrs. White's early stuff like when Satan was jealous of Jesus because God decided to exalt Him to God's level. Thats a loose quote, I cant remember how SOP puts it. But the point is, why would Jesus need to be exalted? But Mrs White went away from Arianism along with most of our early church after James died. Besides that, Im not sure what else Christian Connexion believed.

Aaron

Here is some more background by Woodrow W. Whidden
Andrews University in his article 'Adventist Theology: The Wesleyan Connection':

"....While it is true that Adventist theology does not seem to be exclusively indebted to any one major Protestant theological tradition, the present article will argue that the more immediate and essentially formative baseline has been provided by the Wesleyan/Arminian Tradition.

It is quite clear that there are distinct emphases in the Adventist tradition, especially when it comes to eschatology (such as imminence of the Second Coming and the Millennium). These eschatological accents arose out of the broad impulse of American millennialist concern in the early Nineteenth Century.
Furthermore, there are some clear strands that have come down to the Seventh-day Adventist theological tradition from the Lutheran, Reformed/Calvinistic, Radical Reformation (Anabaptist), Puritan, Pietistic, and Restorationist Traditions. But I am suggesting that the way Wesleyans understood issues involved with soteriology and the closely related issues of the nature of man, law,[1] and sin were most directly formative for the core of Adventist theology.[2] ...."

http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/documents/wesleyanconnectionSDA.htm

Is it possible that SDA theology is derived from Scripture?

I don't think there's any doubt this is true.

Again, is it possible God revealed it to Ellen White through the spirit of prophecy, and that He didn't rely on previous views?

Actually Adventism is a oneness of Armininism and Calvinism, with aspects of both being changed by the oneness:

Plan Calivanism is sort of like someone driving a car bring you the the destination the driver decides to bring you to. Plan Armininism is we driving, Mrs. White has God driving us to where we decide.

C. S. Lewis' "A Horse and his boy" makes a great discription of Mrs. White's view. But read the chapter about Caiphas. Was Ciaphis following his will, or was he fulfilling God's plan for the universe? Yes!

God could have picked a Moses who was facing a more willing leader of Egypt.

Satan is pictured as someone who even in his rebellion against God can't help but find everything he does fulfilling God's plan.

We choose to be rebels or faithful but which ever plays our part in the Great Controversy.

No, because this would be God forcing the will which God does not do (and we wish God would do). Truth always grows and builds on what others have seen. Prophets are only to point it into the right direction when it could grow into a different direction.

Possible, but not in isolation. Adventist pioneers came from many backgrounds and faith traditions, and brought their unique understandings with them. As mentioned above, many of these were of the Methodist/CC (Armenian) camp.

One's interpretation of Scripture is based on one's world view. The pioneers interpreted Scripture according to how they saw the world. The world has changed. It's not what Scripture says so much as how we interpret Scripture that really has an effect.

Over time, as certain people protested this or that false doctrine advocated by the RCC, various followings and fellowships emerged (i.e. Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, Wesleyans, etc). All of them based their conclusions on what they found in the Bible. Is it unfair to say our pioneers also based their conclusions on what they found in the Bible? Or, were they guilty of assuming certain doctrines were correct without confirming them through serious Bible study and prayer? Also, did Jesus assist our pioneers in their efforts to arrive at the truth? Did He raise up a "messenger" to help guide them and to confirm their findings?

It is always comical for me to hear in such a discussion of God, the Future and Free Will how people will try to identify with either the schools of Arminianism, Calvanism, Augustinian, or preachers like Luther, Spurgeon, etc. The real question rather is, along the lines of “Mountain Man’s” question earlier: “What do the Scriptures themselves actually, i.e., exegetically teach? The answer takes much work to conclusive ascertain as it virtually involves all of Scripture, however there are several key indicators that point to what the Biblical Truth of the Matter is.

I have done a study on this topic which is posted in this blog post. Included in the comments sections is a 50+ comment exchange with an SDA Pastort (Arthur Gibbs of NC) who reflects the general (Biblically/Exegetically deficient) state of comprehension of the Church on this matter, leading to a most significant void in the Church’s Theology. (Comments on this study can be made here).

This October 2010, “Arminianism and Adventism” Symposium by the Adventist Theological Society may be of, (at least, [in my view]), contributive background/informational benefit to this discussion. As mentioned above, it is a little too ‘“deferentially, and spuriously, “philosophical”’ vs. being directly, soundly exegetical for me!

Hi NJP,

I read 1/3 of your blog on this subject which I agree with your perspective of Isa 46:10 that God does declare from the beginning the end. This is His Sovereignty signature on all things which makes Him God and everything else a mere "creation" with no inherit power. God is all Powerful (El Shaddai).

In your second section of your blog entitled “limiting the Power of God”, I agree that God works all things and he uses “high scientific realities” by which many of us will define things we do not understand as a “miracles” undermining it as if He uses magic. He works through His Laws(which are all a reflection of His character) including in the physical reality and will not break His own Laws that He has establish at Creation. However your last paragraph is a popular belief which is unbiblical and contradictory in nature of your statement about Isa 46:10 where you are establishing His Sovereignty.

You said

On one hand you say God is Sovereign and on the other you say human’s choice supercedes God’s choices with his “free will” characteristic. Are you implying that God has no Sovereignty over our choices? Does God has Sovereigny over the choices of the animals? For sure He does for the inanimate objects for they have no freewill, right? All this is based because we have the ability of reason and whoever has no reasoning ability cannot choose their destiny. So if I’m understanding you correctly, you are saying that human’s choices is above God’s choices in determining their present reality? Are you saying that God never imposes His will on human’s?

Hi Elle. Appreciate your thoughtful comments. That is an interesting point your bring up. I did not think my statement there could be perceived wrongly. I meant for it to say that God will, at times, ultimately, not violate our free will in order to accomplish His Will for something favoring. I do not see that it is too hard for Him to “summons” (Isa 46:11) an evil person to do a work of destruction. In fact, not much convincing is usually needed there. Thus this is limited to finding people to do His “Good will.” There are many Bible examples that can be cited where, when God even uses supernatural manifestation to get someone to do His will (e.g, Paul on the Road to Damascus), that person always has the choice to obey or not. (Getting King Cyrus to let Israel return to their land also needed such supernatural convincing which I understand, as stated on my blog, as mentioning Him by name ca. 60 years before that time). However, because of that greater amount of revelation to convince that person, that person is held at a much higher level of responsibility. (E.g. Moses who saw God in the burning bush vs. in Exod 4:24-26). So this proportional risk of judgement due to this lower threshold for such use of compelling evidence makes this a fair sovereign act.

Another example is God restoring Israel after the Babylonian Captivity Judgement. As He says in Ezek 36:22-38, He did this despite Israel’s unworthiness. However because Ezekiel, as a declared “Son of Man” had, typologically, earlier been made to bear the sins of Judah and Israel (Ezek 4:4-6), God was able to effectuate this restoration. The, anti-typical, similar thing occurred with Jesus and the redemption of the world, with no one being, of themselves, worthy of this salvation. (Rom 3:23).

So in summary, my point is that human choices can, and have, frustrate and delay God’s plans. (Prime example: His Chosen People Israel, repeatedly, as they were until the New Covenant, His only means through which to duly advance and establish the Plan of Redemption). Indeed as seen with Ancient Israel, He cannot work with a faithless people. However I believe that God will not, though He can, force someone to do His will. He can however make it even life threateningly clear that they should, as with Moses. Indeed He instead uses such compelling, also favoring, evidence to strongly convince that person to do this will (e.g,. Paul), however that has greater consequences if that person becomes ‘unfaithful to so great a revelation.’

In regards to Jer 31:18, 19, I exegetically see that the most accurate reading should be:
‘After I turned [active verb - Qal], my ‘mind was changed’ [passive verb - Niphal] and after that I was instructed... [passive verb - Niphal]...’ (cf. NASB).

This shows that the active “turning” action was first done, then their my was (passively) “changed” and then “instructed” by God.

I hope this clarifies my view. Again, good observation.

I believe it's clear that God consider His Characteristic Attribute to be Love (agape). "God is love."



I completely agree. I think this is the key to understanding the Great Controversy.

God is sovereign, but He has chosen to share His sovereignty. People, and other beings, have the free will to choose not to do that which God wishes, and when they do so, bad things happen.

I can readily see your, at least, Theo-logical point here Tom (i.e., derived from one’s theological observations), for God indeed is love, however my view here is based upon the fact that, as enumerated in my blog post (see e.g., this discussion comment and its continued next one), most of the names for God found in the Bible point to this unmatchable Power and Might. As a name defines one character, especially in the Bible, show me a name for God in the Bible that says/means: “God is Love”!? I can really only call and consider God by the name(s) He has explicitly chosen to be known by.

Perhaps this is for our good, because He saw that it would be easier to readily begin to have faith in His strength than out of Love since, this attribute is not so prominently discernable in this GC, indeed one has to be permitted to ‘look behind the scene’ as in the SOP’s Conflict of the Ages series to clearly see and understand that also present Characteristic fact. That is why I see that “fear of God” is often most acceptably mentioned as a way to enter in, and sustain a relationship with God. E.g., did Abraham accept to kill Isaac, as He knew this was going to be the case, out of a profuse Love for God, or was it, as God saw and stated it, because He “feared” God. (Gen 22:12; cf. Job 1:8; 2:3). So in this GC this Strength and Might is most prominent that God’s Love.

Also is “Agape” Love actually “unconditional” or “reciprocal, but also merciful”?

"God is love" is stated by John, twice.

The best known verse in the world, explains that it was God's love that led to the sacrifice of His Son, which is the greatest event in the plan of redemption, the greatest event in all history.

The love chapter explains that "the greatest of these is love," and explains that all of our actions are fruitless apart from love.

Everybody knows God is powerful, but that power, apart from a knowledge of His love, can only lead to an "obedience" of fear, which is of no value.

Returning to the cross, it is the cross that reveals God's character as no other act. In the cross, and, indeed, in all of Christ's life and teachings, we see that it is not God's power that most clearly defines His character, but His love.

When we consider Christ, whose "whole purpose" was "the revelation of God," what is it that stands out? Is it His power? Or is it His love?

Thx for your respond NJK, however, I didn’t deserve the compliment of being a good observer. I knew your statement was a general statement and I was disagreeing with your “freewill” idea. According to my biblical and health science studies, I just view the “freewill” concept as unbiblical.

I agree with you that God can summon an evil person more easily to execute His judgments, than have a saints to do His good work. With the evil person who is made a vessel of destruction(Rom 9:21) he simply does what is “natural”(1Cor 2:14) versus the saint, who was made to be a vessel of honor, needs lots of tutelage via tribulations throught the judgments(Lev 26:14-46) and when matured enough, then still needs supernatural powers to accomplish God’s good works. Whether it is “natural” or by “supernatural” powers, in both cases God “worked all things after the counsel of his own will” Ep 1:11(see also 1Cor 12:6) Because all powers comes from God(Jn 3:27) in either to have the evil works done, or to bring a saint to be born again to be used for His good works. We cannot be born again by our own choosing, the Bible makes this very clear in John 1

Jn 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (see also jn 3:5; jm 1:17; 1Pe 1:23) It’s totally a gift from God “Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above and cometh down from the Father of lights, which whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.” Jm 1:17; Jn 3:27; 1Co 4:6-7; Heb 5:4

Paul’s Conversion


Paul was literally knocked off his horse with the brightness of the light, blinded for 3 days, and the Lord made His voice clearly and directly heard to him. All of these is a clear example of God’s will above a person’s will. Paul was heading to persecute Christians. That was Paul’s will. Then Jesus didn’t ask him “if you choose you can go into the city and choose to follow me afterwards”. No Jesus commanded him saying “Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.” Act 9:6 Paul was totally blinded. He couldn’t go anywhere anyway, plus God put Paul in a total dependency on Him to wait to have His vision back. So God put him in a very vulnerable situation on top of all of this to plainly overruled Paul’s will. In God’s wisdom to give us another witness of His Sovereignty, God chose to do all the above to get Paul’s attention and set him on a totally new direction against Paul’s will at that time.

I find quite interesting how we fight so fervently to preserve this illusion of “freewill”. Freedom is described by Newton’s Laws of Motion. An object can be moved “freely” by an exterior force and that’s the closest to the truth as to the Freedom we possess. Our “Will” part is inappropriately added to this freedom word when the Bible clearly states that we are either slaves to sin or slaves to Christ. There’s no middle ground as EGW stated also. When we are in Christ, that’s when we are truly “free” for He will move us to where we should go and do what we according to our design in the perfect season to the Will of His Father. Never it is according to Jesus’ will nor to our will, but always to the Will of His Father. For sure Jesus is in harmony and agrees with His Father’s will so it is also Jesus’s will, however let’s not stepped out from the ordained order of God described in 1Co 11:3. And we will come to agree with Jesus’s will also so that God can be the all in all. All will be brought into subjection to Christ as it was ordained to be in the beginning. What’s the emphasis here is that God the Father is Sovereign over all and has made Jesus the rightful ruler over all.

Here’s an interesting word study of Helkuo G#1670

John 6:44 “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (helkuo) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”

G1670 helkuo; probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively).

You will find this same word used in:

John 21:6 “And he said unto them, “Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw (helkuo) it for the multitude of fishes.”

So this same word is used when fishermen drag their nets. The fishes caught in the net do not have a whole lot of free will in this. The same meaning is used with the same word in James 2:6,

James 2:6 “But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw (helkuo) you before the judgment seats?”

Those rich people with power in our world don’t give you much choice when they want to bring you to court. In James’ time probably it was much worst and they dragged you into court. In this text you have the same implication that you don’t have much free will in the matter. Someone higher and more powerful than you has made the decision, and you are forced to comply.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (helkuo) all men unto me.


The same word helkuo is used in this well used text. If we recall that the rich and powerful are dragging you into court and the net is dragging fish into the boat, then the ones being dragged are having their “freewill” overruled by a higher will. Therefore we can say that Jesus was lifted up and He will drag all men unto Himself.

John 6:37 “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.”

Whomever the Father has given to Christ will come to Him. In other words, those who decide to come to Christ by their own “freewill” are really the people whom the Father has already given Him. The Father “who worketh all things” is behind the scenes who has called these people, and therefore their response is, “I want to follow Christ.” They think it is all by their own “freewill”, but in reality it is God who has brought them to Christ, choosing to remain anonymous.

God has first chosen them and dragged them to Christ, so that they will later seemingly choose God in return out of their “own free will”. I think God chooses to let us believe this illusion of “freewill” in our immaturity. God is patient and He continues to nurture us and teach us. However, once we mature and start to understand who God really is, and see His sovereignty over all things in the universe which he move all things by His power; we will come to understand that we are not much different than the animals and inanimate objects and begin to see that “our will” is merely a response to His will.

No Delays in God’s Plans


From what I understand right now, there are no delays and what happened to the Children of Israel worked according to His plans to establish for us the “TYPE” so we can learn from it and come to know the “ANTITYPE” to come. I believe there’s nothing that catches God offguard(James 1:17; Jn 6:6) that He didn’t know what would happen. He knows what stages the nations or a people need to go through just as much a parent has an understanding of the stages their newborn child has to go through to reach maturity,( if by all means the child does get there in this lifetime for there are many immature adult walking around).

God working with Saints Vs. Wicked


I agree that God cannot work with a faithless people and what I’m understanding now, he has worked this past 6000 years to bring forth a mature faithful people to establish on earth His kingdom. Angels cannot do this work and it has to be done by the “sons of God” only for they are His ordained witness on earth. He uses the angels as messengers in this, but not to establish things on earth. This authority was given to Adam and passed down through the firstborn or the birthright son holder. Christ was the birthright holder from the line of Judah and has passed on this authority right to his disciples and His church. We will soon see a holy priesthood stand up which God is working his biddings which I believe is happening right now.

I do agree with you that force is not God’s preferred way to work, however I am now starting to see that it is often needed to be used on immature CHILDREN. I think it is used in the same fashion a parent will force a child into some behavior with correction(Judgments Lev 26) and by overruling the child’s will oftentimes, however, it is always done with the purpose to instruct and to mold the child mind and heart to His image.

Just because “force” is not generally his way, doesn’t mean nor prove we have “freewill”. We do have a mind with the ability to reason, but this reasoning was never design to conduct our own life. That’s what Satan was promoting at the tree of knowledge. Nor does this “freewill” determine whether or not we are saved like most Christianity says that it is the determining factor.

We were design to be “moved” by His Spirit at all time by having His Spirit perpetually indwell in us. The big deception lies in the realm of the purpose of the intelligence and our perception of the source of our powers. Most of the time we are moved from the inside out. That’s why it is so hard to distinguish contrary if we saw a physical big hand from heaven guiding us at all time. God’s presence is very hard to distinguish and we can be easily deceived in believing that what we do see our self doing, come from us versus the reality it comes from God; therefore we oftentimes “steal” God’s glory and change the truth into a lie.(Rom 1:21,22,25)

The Turning of the Farmer’s Ox

Well, I did check the verbs in my interlinear/ literal translation software, I’m not at that level in my Hebrew to distinguish the accuracy of it, and my literal translation seem to agree in an active verb for “to-turn-away-of me”, however the remaining 5 verbs seems to be all in passive along that texts. I cannot comment on that more than that. But taken that verse into context and deriving it’s meaning from the context, I understand the following :
Ephraim (nation whom the birthright is rightly his, and not to Judah) is symbolized “as a bullock” that was plowing a field. God the farmer, is the one to turn his bullock. We know that “to turn” also means to repent, as to go in another direction. It is not the ox place to turn himself, but it is the responsibility of the farmer/God. The problem is that this “bullock” was not accustomed to being obedient to the Farmer.

The passage says that after God turned him, he turned(or repented). The context does not say that Ephraim first repented and then God turned him, as if God were reacting to His “bullock.” God holds the reins. He is the One in control of the bullock as a sovereign God and owner of the bull should be. So this places the order of how things works. God initiate things in order that it will be accomplished.
None of us will be saved unless God is behind every step. Man can not do anything without God. No man can come to the Father, except the Father drags him. If God “predestine” any events, it will still appears as if we did it all by ourselves. However, we are called to grow into maturity in understanding the reality and to acknowledge God’s sovereignty in all things.

I do agree that God often leaves the immature saints or the wicked to their own decisions (Rm 1:24, 26, 28; 2Ch 30:7; Ps 81:12 ; Act 7:42) however, there are boundaries that even Satan is well aware of them and Satan or anyone cannot do anything unless God allows them. So God is ultimately in control of everything and nothing is done without his approval.

Indeed. These are all part of God’s character. Though, until Christ not prominently presented by God. My understanding is that this was not applicably appropriate at the time given the constant circumstances of having to discipline Israel early in this GC. One cannot demonstrate love where there are no genuinely applicable circumstances, or very little and not enough to make it as prominent as God’s attribute of power.



As the Bible repeatedly states that most important value would be that, given when everything else fails, that love would have help to begin to instill saving wisdom (See e.g., Job 28:28; Psa 111:10; Pro 1:7; 9:10; 15:33; Isa 11:2; 33:6) in turn leading to proper actions in turn leading to an achievable two-way Love relationship with God. Thus it implicitly, inceptively, it was an act of Love. Not demonstrating this power or not taken forceful corrective actions but ‘sparring the rod’ and letting that rebellious child quickly, i.e, even before the could cope, suffer the full extent of their course, would be an act of indifferent hate.



I rather see both God’s “power”, especially in relation to how it applies to this issue of ‘Foreplanning’ and His Love. (As well as His Justice and Mercy). After the Fall of Man, as related in EW 149.2, as you manifestly correctly understand, God was most reluctant to allow His Son to come and die because of the very likely possibility that it would not succeed, as it fairly and faith-basedly needed to, and that Jesus would also be lost eternally. So I see a most prominent demonstration of God power in overcoming all of the OT obstacles and wrenches that were strewn and thrown into His Way and Plans as He endeavored to bring this Plan to full and successful completion. And all that without violating any GC rule and also not going against His Character. That indeed to great power to do. Of course His Love for falling and undeserving man is also seen in that Event. So it also took a great deal of God’s power to make the cross possible so that anything that would come in this way could be justly removed. Fairly orchestrating things to effectuate, in turn that fair/just removal also took a great deal of power, where applicable. It also took a great deal of Wisdom to make the proper decision, however wise plans without Power to implement them, even forcefully when possible is useless. Nonetheless, it also took a great amount of sustained Love for fallen man to, at any of the many explicitly stated frustrating point along these 4000+ years of GC leading up to the Cross not to “push the button” and start all over, with a perfect Creation, thus not even having to risk Jesus for this lone group of Humans in this universe who had sinned/rebelled.

So again, I do not have a mutually exclusive view here but see that God’s Justice, Wisdom, Longsuffering Patience, Compassion/Mercy, Sovereign and/or All Mighty Power and Love were all equally manifested at the Cross, the culmination of God’s plan of Redemption.



On a condensed scale all of these attributes were manifested in Christ in the 3+ years of public ministry leading up to the Cross, and then also on the Cross itself (e.g, Love to stay there, at least love for God, and the will power to do so against all opposing psychological compellations, especially as He took on the mind of all sinners. (See this blog post)

Again, God is real, and does not manifest or impose His characteristic where they are not pertinently applicable. One usually get turned of an annoyed by an individual who does this. So in the 4000 years leading up to the GC, He had very little opportunities to realistically/candidly demonstrate that Love. And this is pointedly what Jesus perceived and thus sought to emphasize in some of His pertinent public teaching and actions. This also was made the burden of EGW is many of Her writings.

In fact I Theologically believe that this understanding of God’s, previously “circumstancibly” suppressed Character of Love, will be the “name of My God” that Jesus will write on those who are faithful in the Church of Philadelphia. (Rev 3:12 - among other things that will be done). And I further see that this will only truly be the “written” case when those ones do indeed reflect perfect “brotherly love”. So a mere expression of Love will not accomplish this, but also truly having that character, and that indeed comes in, like Jesus, doing all that we can to truly Love God and others and not, especially, letting them die of curable/preventable diseases so that we can live our Crossless and selfish/self-centered lives. It can be seen that EGW was indeed commissioned to help begin to help write this name as her work towards this end started during the Philadelphia Church age.

You did not actually answer my distinct question of: “Is “Agape” Love actually “unconditional” or “reciprocal, but also merciful”?”

Also consider this if/when answering: “What did Jesus understand by “no greater love” than that of laying down their “psyche” for his friends (John 15:13), which is then immediately specified as those who will do His will?? (vs. 14). Why not say “all peoples” even “enemies”?? Are there levels of agape or is it, as I understand it “conditional” and thus inherently involves reciprocal levels. Thus punishment and opposition for those who, despising such a gift/opportunity, continue in hatred (E.g., Exo 20:5; Mal 1:3-5).

So in summary here, God’s Love does not need supercede any of His other Character Traits/Attributes as they are all equally worthy of prominence. It was just that OT circumstances caused God’s full revelation to be hindered/limited and so Jesus took deliberate measure to address and correct that ‘rebellious-men-caused’, divine slighting, even misrepresentation, especially as the Jews then themselves were only making it worst with their various false teachings.

The same reform and highlighting is tangibly needing to be done by God’s remnant, indeed as, and more, (to meet our current, post-modern/capitalistic oppositions to this Revelation), revealed in the SOP.

As you brought up a point on freewill then that I did not think would be seen as such, I saw it as a good observation, and hence made that comment. However, having read your completely opposing view on freewill here, I then can see how you wouldn’t think so, to any degree. I only commented on what I had read and understood.



I think the key here in regards to the, (do illumine me if I am wrong) purely Spiritual/Theological subject of freewill and choices will be found in the Bible. So I will indeed endeavor to ascertain exactly what the Bible teaches.

As you seemingly also understand, our final Theological views are to be built upon the whole testimony of Scripture, properly, exegetically expressed and understood. So I will mostly focus on these underlying texts rather than on your expressions of your resulting views. In the end what I, or anyone else may think, really takes aback seat to what the Bible actually teaches. If I leave out a such a ‘resulting statement’ that you think should be validly addressed let me know.



John 3:27 pointedly speaks of someone having the ability to “take” away from John ministry which He and His disciples knew were of God. John always knew that He was the forerunner and so it now Jesus was “taking” followers away from him, then it surely was because that transition time had come for the recently baptize Jesus and it was God who was granting/allowing = “giving” this. So this text is not speaking of a giving of power, but a giving of followers, as allowed to be impressed by God to now go to Jesus instead of going to John. So John knew that his time to decrease had come.



John 1:11-13
Keep in mind here that John is writing this introductory text for his gospel long after the events (probably in ca. 90+ A.D., and after the elucidating visions of Revelation, hence the more Theological and Christ’s Divine Nature distinct focus of His Gospel, and that in a summary way.
So in vs. 11, he is saying in summary way that the Jewish Nation in general did not receive Christ (though many did as seen in Acts).

Then in vs. 12 he turns to those who did receive Christ vs. Christ’s own people who “did not”, thus the Gentiles. These, though not ethnic Jews as ‘Christ’s own people’ thus had the “authority” to become children of God, i.e., these ones who believed in Christ’s name.

Then in vs. 13 John further explains that this full accepting of the Gentiles with “authority” as now the Children of God was done ‘not of their natural blood line rights, nor of the will of flesh (i.e., these Gentiles longing to replace the Jews); nor the will of man; e.g., someone (e.g., a Jews or Jews) wanting this be the case, but by God’s granting of this authority. So they indeed had the full rights and prerogative as the ethnic Jews, Christ’s own people, previously had.

So I do not see this passage as addressing the will of man to be born again, but to the authority to become God’s People, even taking the place of the ethnic Jews. That currently validatingly applies to over 2.3 billion “Gentile” Christians.



Let’s see in the sum here is not greater than its parts.



Seems to me that if God wills to and has the authority to, in this GC, fairly force men like Paul who are avowed haters of His true way, to become believers then, in solely relation to Sabbath Keeping Christians, God is failing with over 99% the world!!

As EGW points out in AA, Paul was not acting out of hypocrisy, but because He effectively was deceived. She says:



Indeed if Paul had not personally witness or heard in cognitive details the events of the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ, then why not respectfully trust the words and judgement of his religious superiors and teachers. If he thought they were lying then he proudly would not be a part of them but rather seeking out the truth himself. Indeed God would not so manifest Himself to a hypocritically rebellious person, and persecutively at that. If that was so, Paul would have shared in the same fate as those hypocrite leaders in Christ’s day and the same persisted blindness as those leader who had caused him to be so deceived so God could work with that sincere and zealous faith to do what was right.

Also as I say in my blog post, God needed the various key and valuable “resources” of Paul for this great work of expansively raising up God’s New Israel now among the Gentiles. So his call was as undeserving as the call of, and justifying grace shown to, Abraham, an idolater (Jos 24:2; cf. PP 125.1) but also desiring to do God’s will, when God was seeking to establish Ancient Israel. Yet God found enough in both of them to call them and entrust them with this Great opportunity. (Notice the full circle here. God calls Abraham from pagans to establish a saving Jewish nation and when that is done He similarly raised a Jew Paul to now go back to the Gentiles and save them, as it was always planned. So by that circular, borrowing and returning, action this transaction made itself a fair one in the GC.)

So it seems to me that God reserves such “Aces in the Hole” to begin to do His will, and as shown later, all through their cooperating and responsive will, and a sustained relationship and obedience. However I understand that for each of those overpowering actions that God takes, the Devil is entitled to do the same. Hence we have directly inspired evil doers to various degrees such as Darwin, Joseph Smith, Voltaire, Hitler etc.

However, according to your non-freewill-but God’s-sovereign-will view, God is then decided who will be saved or not and obviously He gladly wants and is acting so that over 99%+ of the world,, and all those who were ever born, will burn in Hell!??



As stated in Paul other one of his account of this conversion experience in Acts 22:10. I was Paul who asked Jesus, after now having in a flood of recollections, self-convinced of the Truth merely by the words “I am Jesus whom you are persecuting” (see AA 114.2-116.3) “What shall I do Lord” Notice that it is here Paul who initiatingly is offering himself, even his services, to Christ. He could have just answer. ‘Oh I did not know I was persecuting you. Sorry... I’ll go back home get married and raised a godly family.’ Instead Paul new that since this was clear the Truth then something active and definite must be done about it. Paul also understood that if such an appearance and faulting of someone he now in his recollections knew was God did not destroy Him then God must want Him to do something. And so he, like Moses (at least two times) passed this unspoken will test and God immediately enjoined this success. And by thus freely (as I understand it) placing himself under the full command of Christ, Jesus did indeed proceed to command him Paul as to what he should do for Him. However notice in Paul other recounting of these events in Acts 26:9-18. In vs. 19 & 20, he says to Agrippa that: ‘he, from then on, did not come to be disobedient to the heavenly vision (cf. vs. 16-18).

So clearly Paul believed that all along this time, since His encounter before proceeding onto Damascus, he had the possibility and thus “option”, and thus choice, and thus freedom to be disobedient if he wanted. If he believe in your view, as He could have known as you refer to OT passages which he was familiar with and then later became aware of the full Gospel story. (Needless to say that He wrote most of the NT that you are also using today to prove this view), then he would have told Agrippa, at, here, this much later stage in his ministry, that ‘I had no other choice but to be to this desired will of God.’ Indeed the word “dis-obedient” #545 (a word that Paul and others repeatedly use for evildoers in danger of condemnation) would not have been use a moot. You can only “disobey” if you have a choice, and a free one at that. (If a robber hold up a gun a me and threats to blow my brains out if I don’t hand over my wallet, I cannot go around telling people I was obedient to him, since I logically did not have a free choice. I instead “complied” to that threat and command.)



Paul was indeed totally blind but that does not mean “he could not go anywhere”?? HE clearly says he was not alone (Acts 9:7; 22:9). And how do you think he continued, now blind, to get to Damascus?? He clearly says that ‘he was led by the hand by those who were with him. (Acts 9:8; 22:11). He emphasizes this to show that he was indeed totally made blind by that apparition/light. So Paul could just have easily gone back to Jerusalem if he wanted to. He only proceed to Damascus because, as he said (Acts 26:19, 20a), he was right from that time, faithfully endeavoring to be obedient to that vision.



It rather seems to me in reading Acts 9:17 & AA 121.4 that Paul more importantly need to be filled with the Holy Spirit. Just like the disciples before him (Acts 1:8; 2:4). Indeed, although Paul was highly educated, with the Holy Spirit, he could not properly do, if at all this great task.



I rather see that this blindness was a natural collateral damage of the amount of power that was used for that convincing appearance. First of all, it was noon (Acts 26:13) so that light, to be distinctly seen and not be passed of as the midday sunlight, it had to be much brighter than it. That was mainly done for those with Paul as they only heard a “sound” and saw the light (Acts 22:9), but didn’t either see the countenance of Christ (AA 115.1) or understand a voice. This was evidently done so that those assigned temple men, (probably from the Temple guard) would not then abandon, betray/deliver up, or even kill a now persecution-refusing Paul. So the blinding was by this necessary brighter than noon radiance (cf. Acts 22:11) which he, unlike the others probably had to look directly into in order to figure out exactly who was appearing to him. The others probably just looked away and/or shielded their eyes.



For the reasons cited above, I do not see any “overruling of Paul’s will,” but a free choice to obey that great revelation, a commanding action that Paul himself freely initiated by asking what Jesus wanted him to do.



Clearly Paul did not understand this ‘overruling sovereignty’ act when recounting that testimony. Acts 26:19. The only sovereignty hear was to the extent of getting Paul’s attention, but not to force him to do anything against his now, and first (i.e., between the first statement of Jesus and the later instructions) self-rectified will of Paul based on all that He already had heard and learned about Jesus and the Christian Faith.

[Answering to be continued. BTW, you can stop me (or also, respond) at anytime.]

[Answers cont’d]



Interesting word study here, however I think you are overstating its meaning by making it include and affect free will. One simple text from that group entirely sink your ‘no free will, irresistible pulling’ claim, and that is Christ’s statement in John 12:32. If Christ “drew all to Him when He was lifted up on the Cross, the why have billions of people since that event not become Christians?? Clearly one still has the free will to accept or reject Christianity. So that “drawing” still allows one to reject that possible, when effectuate, Divine prompting/calling. As Jesus also says, Many are called but the choice ones are few (Matt 22:14) So that ‘call resisting’ possibility is how ‘God’s drawing’ in John 6:44 is to be understood. Indeed the logically irrational issue of why God does not ‘irresistibly draw’ all peoples, even all peoples, is raised up by holding your view for that verse. Also:

John 21:6 - ‘the fish’s will was a moot issue in that miracle.’ The only Theological lesson it teaches is that God knows how best to conduct the work of fishing for men, compared to our even best methods, training and knowledge. God’s guidance is what is to be crucially sought.

James 2:6 - The only way that people are ‘dragged’ before the courts is, as today, because of the penalties for not appearing, including a default judgement against them if they fail to appear. So they still have the free choice to appear or not, though with penalties if they do not.



The setting up of the NT Church involved a great deal of key “election” of “choice” people as “firstfruits” = founders/pioneers. (= Rom 8:28-39). God looked around the Jewish and Gentile world and all those who were “electable” = “choice people”, he cast his vote with them and indeed “elected them” to these crucial NT Church/New Israel positions. However, like any elected individual, that did not mean that they could not fail, even completely in the future. God here had only cast their vote with them based upon their past good living and indeed offered them to Christ by drawing them to cross paths with Christ and the Gospel. Jesus fully understood this behind the scenes guiding work of God, all based upon due individual merit and that is why He said that he would not cast them out. However these were free to go away if they chose. They were not forced to stay. So just as God elected Abraham in the past to be both the Ancestral father of many, primarily, natural children to form a nation for God, and then he called Moses to be the Spiritual Father of this now great nation, in the same way, for the New Covenant Israel, and given the fact of almost total rejection by the Jewish people, God called the most sincere people to be the spiritual Children of Christ and then Paul to extend this work and family of Christ among the Gentile nations. This election does not do away with one’s freewill.



Again the simple logical question that entirely sink this view of yours is: Why not more, and that much more, by God of so, supposedly “forced” to be faithful Christians???



In that case, as many OT prophetic statements will not, simply as most cannot, be literally fulfilled, then God, who would have been doing, (or nonchalantly allowing) all of the capital transgressions, rebellions and apostasies of Ancient Israel, actually made prophetic mistakes in his statements, by not making them literally speak of things, places events, etc of how they were “always supposed to be fulfilled at least 2000+ years after the fact. I.e., why would God not extend all prophecies in regards to Israel as literally and specifically as He did in e.g, Dan 2, 7, 8, 9 if they too were all to only be fulfilled 2000+ years later, in our day???



(A) Your supposed supporting text here do not say anything to this point so they are simply textbook “proof-texts” here.

(B) God Himself says that unexpected things happen to Him from man’s free choices and actions. (E.g., Isa 5:1-7) Indeed, many times He has to test man to find out/ascertain what is in there heart or how they will choose to act. (E.g., Gen 22:12; Deut 8:2; cf. Exod 15:25; 16:4; 2 Chr 32:31). These are unequivocal, straightforward Biblical statements.



The two OT episodes in the Bible in Exod 32 and Num 14 (discussed in greater detail e.g., here shows that God twice wanted to destroy all of Israel and start all over with one person. That clearly does not look like a God who is going by a grandly manipulative, plan.



If as you believe, God can ‘irresistibly force’ people to be obedient to him (= overiding all of their freewill) then why would He need to “work”, and that for so long to get a mature people?? Alos why not force them to instantly be mature, indeed never allowing them to take any steps back or stray aside as was the constant case in Ancient Israel. How do you explain God only being able to have at best ca. 120 ‘forced converts’ just after the resurrection, and very little of the over 2,000,000 Jewish People in Israel and the world by the 70 A.D. destruction?? Is it that God is not working enough or well or what, according to your no-free-will understanding??? It all seems to me that God is shooting himself in the foot. On one hand He is supposedly overriding the free will of people and on the other hand He is keeping most in the dark (Matt 13:10-17).



You are making a different statement here. If God is overriding people will then how can they ever rebel by acting/continuing to be, immature. Indeed this view places all of the failures of people to do and be right in the world on God which makes no sense at all since God wants all to be saved. (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9, 10) People need to freely choose (= Rev 2:21) to believe to be saved (John 3:16). The Bible is so copious and clear on that fact that I do not see how such texts are ignored to build a ‘no free will doctrine’ on even a handful of seemingly supporting statements, which non have exegetically checked out!



I thought your view was that this was the only way of God in regards to one’s will. It seems clear to me that your view is continuing to come apart at the seams here.



Reason about what then, since in your view that is pointless. Here is the 180 switch that God allows and considers in one’s “reason”: Isa 1:18-20; cf. 21ff.



How could God allow Satan to tempt man with something that actually is not feasible. I.e., get freewill?? And didn’t God say, when Adam and Eve sinned that they had indeed achieved what Satan was offering them (Gen 3:22a)



Clearly not over 99% of us since they are not full commandment keeping Christians!! Thus God never wired them to be saved and be moved by His Spirit, right??



Again how, in your view, can man be doing anything against God’s will. And what’s the point of trying to convince anyone of this supposed “Biblical/Theological teaching”?? What actual difference will it make since God overridingly decides who will be save or not, obedient or disobedient?? And ‘overriding what? If my cruise control (= free will) does not work, then by pressing my accelerator (evil choices) or brakes (good choices), I am in no way “overriding anything at all” My cruise control was never active and controlling the speed of my car!!



Good laymen’s/starter study tool!



An Interlinear’s English text is usually based upon a major English version, hence probably the non-exact reading here for instead a reading according to the understood sense of the translators.



I cannot find any free/freely accessible resources online to show these grammatical taggings, including the free E-Sword software. (If you have access to a university library, you probably can find the book by John J. Owens, Analytical Key of the OT which has a detailed listing of these taggings.)



Agreed... in part. Indeed, Jer 31:18 the same word “turn” occurs twice in the statement:



While God does initiate the turning, it is the person who is to complete it. This is just like the farmer indicating to the bulls to turn and then they, of their own force turn. So this is just like a inceptive calling of God for people to turn as seen in the Bible and once that calling is heed and people have to complete/do this act of turning themselves. Then after that have “turned” (vs. 19, continuing the non-causative Qal verbal form), then their mind was changed. Etc.



Jer 31:18, 19 actually shows that while God may initiate (in mercy vs. 20b = God’s calling), man, like the bull, has to, of their own volition/strength follow through. The farmer cannot turn the 1000+ pound ox if they refuse to obey that turning prompting. Hence the need of whips as I understand to force then if necessary.



That direct divine calling was only initially being done whenever applicable in the early days of the small NT Church. However very early Christ sent out disciples to go and call others to the Truth, with many have the choice to obey or not (e.g, Matt 10:5-7; 14, 15). However today, this calling is mainly recursively done through Christ’s followers again according to His instruction (Matt 28:19, 20). If God was actively doing, in all cases, a ‘dragging to the truth’, and an ‘irresistible one at that’ then there would be absolutely no need for Christians to do any Evangelism. Just leave the Church doors open and wait for “forcefully dragged” people to be “dragged” in, and, of course, against their (“non”) will.



How do you explain the many people who backslide and abandon the faith annually who once came to the truth, clearly, according to your view, only by God forcing will. In the SDA Church alone that is ca. 1300 per day who leave the Church. In your view no Christian are actually called by God unless God is dragging people to any Christian Church instead on His only True Church? And, according to you, what ‘singular Church’ would that be (as it sequiturly/logically have to be)??



I thought we couldn’t have or own decisions (= our “overidding” choices)



How do they ever begin to will to go against “God’s irresistible will’ to the point here were God ‘leaves them to their own decisions’



(A) not really according to your sub views

(B) What force/meaning does “ultimately” means since man is not supposed to have any will??



Approval/Approving of what??? It could only be “approving” a free choice/decision of man!!

Summary
You really need to decide how faithful your are going to be to your chief tenet that ‘freewill does not exist as not doing so causes your view to be quite incongruous. I however see then that you will have to outrightly ignore many Scriptures, indeed like your listed: “(Rm 1:24, 26, 28; 2Ch 30:7; Ps 81:12 ; Act 7:42)” as they show that God does leave people to follow their own decision, stemming from their free choices! These are all the signs of a house of teaching that is not built with/on a deeply dug foundation, indeed without any foundation at all, but merely laid upon the surface ground thus a prime candidate to be swept away like a boat by a simple torrential flooding (Luke 6:47-49).

Thx for your thorough reply NKJ of the first section. Can we take one thing at a time?

That’s ok NKJ you were just caught off guard and didn’t expect it. I appreciate that you gave me the benefit of the doubt.

Yes, my source is totally Biblical. I only used the Newton’s law to illustrate the concept of freedom. I would appreciate you would also resort to only Biblical support and not rely on EGW statements. I believe we should be able to establish any truth from the Bible only.

Proofing vs. not proofing
NJK, I’m puzzle for the purpose of your statement above. I thought we were agreeing about God Sovereignty which to me encapsulate that He has all powers and gives it to whom He wants. Also isn’t my statement “all powers comes from God” one of those that is common knowledge? I really didn’t think this was an issue to prove and I stated John 3:27 only as a quick convenience text since I had it on hand. I hope you are not going to demand that I prove substantially things that are well known between us. I understand for things that are not common knowledge and is a crucial point needed to be backed up. Maybe your comment on John 3:27 was merely to point out to me that text was a weak proof and you were agreeing with my point in the same breath. If that’s so, in the future I would appreciate that you state it clearly and maybe give me a better text if you have one in mind.

John 3:26 “And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him. 27. John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given from heaven.”
I agree with you that in the specific context it is speaking of “giving of followers”, however, John answer is by stating a general principle/law of God’s Sovereignty. So this text is very relevant, if you really believe that God is Sovereign.

God Sovereignty in Influence
We all know the Father (and His Son) is above all, owns everything, and has power over everything, because He is the King over all. This Sovereignty the Father and Jesus possess is based on the fact they have created all things. Even all the particles to make any creatures were made by them. So there’s nothing that was made that they didn’t make. Based on this ownership, they have this Supreme Authority (Rev 4:11). With this Sovereignty, they have and the fact that they are God, all the “power” comes with the package of that title.

I would like to put an emphasis on the meaning of this power as an INFLUENCE. Jesus “is before all things” (Col 1:17); “he is the head” (1Co 11:3; Col 1:18);… ”that in all things he might have the preeminence” (Col 1:18)

The word preeminence is proteuo(4409) which means to be first (in rank or influence). So Jesus is holding the highest rank or influence in the universe under God, that commands to motion all things into righteousness with his Words/ Torah (Heb 1:3) which is the voice of Wisdom stated in Prov 8. “Influence” is my preferred word to described this power because it has the emphasis of the fashion by which God “moves” all things. It’s often by that small still voice that the Lord is heard(1Ki 19:11-12). It doesn’t lessen it’s potency effect and it’s efficiency to get God’s will executed. Is 55:11 ”So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it”.
Concerning giving a better text than Jn 3:27 that states all power comes from God(the Father), here are some that I found today in a brief search only in the NT.


Can we be Born Again by the Will(choice) of Man or by the will of God


It is true that the tribe of Judah didn’t receive Jesus and it is true that the gospel was spread to the gentiles. And it is true that when we are born again, being Sons of God includes the passing the authority to them. However, you’re interpretation is narrowed while John was establishing a bigger picture in this chapter that Jesus is the Christ of God. I disagree with your narrowed interpretation and I read the text with John main emphasis that Jesus being the Christ of God is describing in v.13 how people becomes sons of God which are born of God. John emphasis was on the fact that Jesus is the Christ (the anointed) and being born of God can only be done from above through the Anointed by His Spirit as Jesus explained to Necodemus. Jn 3:5,6,8 ”Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. 6.That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit 8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and wither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.”

John confirm here that the Spirit dwells in us 1Jo3:24 “ And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.”

Also James confirms by saying Jm 1:17 “Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above and cometh down from the Father…”
Being born again is a gift and a phenomena that comes from above.

Peter further specifies what is the Spirit of God by saying 1Pet 1:23 “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth fore ever.”
That incorruptible seed is Jesus Christ(1Jo 3:9; Lk 8:11; Act 3:25;Gal 3:16 ) who is the word of God, that small voice of wisdom(Prv 8) that abideth in all souls and He guides them by His word that He whispers between our ears.

John also confirm that Jesus is the seed by saying 1Jo 3:9 “ Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”

Also John specifies further in 1Jo 5:18 “ We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.”

Also Paul confirms this by saying in Eph 2:8 “ For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: 9. Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”

Paul again emphasy that we are saved by grace and not the will of man in Rom 9:15-16 ” For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16. So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.”

Summary :
If we claim that God is Sovereign this claim extends by acknowledging that God is Sovereign over us personally which include have Sovereignty over our "will". All through the Bible God’s people are describe as SERVANTS which brings in the dimension that we serve the will of someone higher than us. Of course, Jesus calls us FRIENDS, however, that doesn’t mean we are at the same level. Jesus Himself, acknowledge that His Father is above Him and will submit Himself to His Father when this CG is over “when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.” 1Co 15:28

I will stop here for now and comment on your reply of Paul’s conversion tomorrow.

Did God Fail by having the Majority going to HELL


As it is right now according to mainstream Christianity even with the free grace doctrines 80% is going to Hell and we, SDAs via EGW, estimate is what? 95%+ Both of these are not impressive numbers either. And we claim that Love conquer all. My, we are in major denial.

The thing with mainstream Christianity doctrines is they view Jesus 2nd coming as the end of Judgment. We, SDAs, believe it happens just before Jesus second coming at the close of probation. No one is considering the millennium, and after the millennium where there are a bunch of other events that happens before the Judgment at the Great white throne. There’s no time frame depicted clearly in the Bible for when that judgment is going to be but for sure it is not finish at Jesus 2nd coming because it is written there is a Judgment at the Great white throne by which we have no clue how long it will take after the resurrection of the dead and after that war Satan initiates. That’s when the real judgment happens and Jesus talks about it in his parables. But we gloss over these texts and we fill in what we don’t understand with speculation and we call it TRUTH. Everyone has made up their mind with their pre-conceived Hell doctrine and declare they already know God’s judgment without looking for Biblical support from God’s establish foundation depicted in the type of the Laws of Moses. In the type is where God clearly made us know His mind and heart in this matter and how he will judge the world.


Was Paul Elected because he was not Rebellious or Hypocritical


The Bible makes a very big distinction between those that are born again(spiritual man) versus those that are not(natural man). The state of mind of these two are totally different. One is “open” to the things of God; whereas the other is “close”. And Paul was not an exception to the rule or endowed with any special qualities different than any others. Before he was born again, he was the same as anyone else, he was a “natural man”.

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.” 1Cr 2:14

Paul did not receive the things of God before his conversion. We are all hypocrites and rebellious to many extend especially before conversion. I believe Paul literally meant it when he said that he was the chief of sinners(1Tim 1:15). We really don’t know if he was a big hypocrite or not.

You seem to imply that Paul was better than the rest of the Pharisees and that’s why he was subject to be a candidate to be saved. With such a statement then salvation depends on the individual and not 100% on Christ. Christ has saved many who were “more” whatever it may be than others and often the “more” is what God used to show them their heart.

However, according to Rom 9, Paul was made a vessel of honor and God was preparing him for that big moment at his conversion. According to Jesus, Paul was persecuting Him. If we take the text just as it read, Paul’s heart was persecuting Jesus just like any other zealous Jews whom he probably shared the same hatred against Jesus. You persecute those you personally hate whether it is by ignorance or not.

Did Paul Ignorance make him worthy to be saved?

Paul confessed in 1Ti 1:13 that he was a blasphemer, a persecutor, and injurious “I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief”. Because of this mercy Paul received, He extends this mercy to all the Jewish nation past and present Rom 11:31 “For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.”

And Paul even dared to say “For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance” Rom 11:29. Why can he say such a thing? Because He knows that it is God that leads us to repentance and not vice versa. God will do is job and He has all the time in the world to accomplish it. Hab 1:12.

It is not by Man’s will, but by God’s Work through His Spirit


That’s an interesting circular observation.

I agree that both Paul and Abraham were undeserving of God’s special attention, and I agree that God needed ONE important man to make a difference to the world of their time. It is partly true that they chosen based on what these people already possessed at the time. However, my understading of this and yours presently is not the same. You imply that they had some type of inherit qualities that made them deem electable which partly is true but your emphasis is is contrary to the Gospel message and not biblical. Paul makes very clear in Rom 9 that God makes vessels of honor and some vessels of dishonor(Rom 9:21) and therefore has nothing to do with the person’s will or what they did that might deem them to some worthiness of the election. It all hast to do on whom God decides to show mercy on and put special attention to form that person’s character at the time according to His plan. (Rom 9:11-23). God worked on Paul and Abraham and was molding and preparing them for their task. Probably God started molding them from conception, who knows. But when the time came, all was already in place for their respond. So their “yes” was a true respond of their whole being with all those pre-preparatory work in connecting neurons together by the Holy Spirit through events God brought in their life. It is God that leads us to repentance and it is a very specific timely work that God makes beforehand which He continues after during the sanctification process.

One of my favorite EGW quote is COL 98.3. However I’m not using it to establish proof here and won’t quote it. It is a beautiful description of the work of the leaven comparing it to the work of Holy Spirit on our mind which is exactly what we all experience before conversion. Just like Jesus said to Nicodemus, you do not know where the wind came from or where it is going for it is out of our control. “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure” (Phil 2:13). We can not even take 0.000001% credit of our conversion, and if we do, it is a pure boasting and a robbery of God’s glory. What happens in us is a “respond” to the planned event based on what was already in place before hand by the Holy Spirit.
Some Texts:

The Natural Man

Since the fall, the “natural man” is married with the powers of darkness—we are “ONE” with darkness/death heading for self destruction. (Texts : Darkness(Prov 4:19; Is 8:22; Is 42:7,16; Is 59:9; Is 60:2; Mat 6:23, Jhn 3:19; Jhn 12:46); self-Destruction(Rom 3:16; Hos 13:9; Ps 107:20; Pro 11:19; 2Pet 2:1); Death(Prov 24:11; 102:20; 107:10,14,18; Is 28:15)). Now thinking of it, I believe the Bible always describes this as a relationship with “lovers”, an adulteress, not a marriage because there are really only one true marriage because there are only one true Husbandman which is the Lord our God.

Regardless, it figured it as a “woman” going after her “lovers”. If you ever been in “love” you would know how strong it is and I know this in a perspective of a woman. The directions of the powers of darkness(sin or the lover) becomes our directions. So it becomes “our choices” because of the affinity we have towards our lover(or sin). When a woman is married, many experience their “desires shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over you” Gen 3:16. I believe God has built in the woman to make their husband’s desires theirs. I know it for I have experienced this. The ruling the man or the subjection of the woman is in harmony to the ordained order of God in 1Co 11:3. However, because of sin, the ruling here can be either an oppressive ruling or one out of love. Nevertheless, in both case the woman is ruled by her husband.

I believe Gen 3:16 illustrates the science behind “the choice” when man or woman is either “married” to sin, or to God. Whoever you are married to, your desires shall be to him, and he will rule over you.

So after the fall, God put us in direct subjection to our own mind(=corrupt heart) instead of being subjected to His Spirit as we were before. When we do not have the Spirit of God ruling our thoughts and desires, then we become “foolish”(Jer 10:8; Eze 13:3; Rom 1:21; Ps 94:8; Pro 1:22; 15:7,14;…) and “vain”(Jer 2:5; 4:14; Rom 1:21; Ps 10:7; 12:2; 39:11; 94:11; 119:37; Ecc 1:2; Is 30:28; 41:29; 59:4; Rom 3:12; 8:20; Ep 4:17) and we are led by our own “imagination”(Gen 8:21; Deu 29:19; Jer 3:17; 7:24; 9:14; 11:8; 13:10; 16:12; 18:12; 23:17;Rom 1:21). That’s the “natural man” disposition without God’s influence. And the spiritual things are very foolish to him. This “natural man” cannot seek God(Rom 3:11) because He thinks God is foolish(1Cor 2:14; 1:18, 23) for he cannot understand God(Rom 8:5-7;1Cor 2:14; 2Pet 2:12; Jud 1:10; Dn 12:10) . To understand or want spiritual things you need to be spiritual(Rom 8:5-7;1Cor 2:14); therefore the “natural man” cannot go to God by his own choosing and that’s why he needs to be “dragged” to God via multitudes corrective events that God’s brings in our lives. This process is what the Bible describes as learning Righteousness(Is 26:9; Hab 1:12; Is 29:24; Ps 94:10; Hos 2:6-10; Is 32:16,17; Hos 10:12;… )

The Hell Doctrine

NJK, the Hell doctrine is not even Biblical and it is totally contrary to the type establish by the Laws of Moses. “And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through [the fire] to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I [am] the LORD.” Lev 18:21 God abides to His own Moral Laws and this atrocity of the burning in Hell fire doctrine didn’t even come to his mind. “And they built the high places of Baal, which [are] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through [the fire] unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.” Jer 32:35 This is a man-made doctrine.

The Hell doctrine is another of those pass down pre-conceived ideas we inherited resulting from 1700+ years of darkness after the early church slowly apostatized. For this discussion sake, let’s just finish looking about the “freewill” for now. If later on you want to discuss about the inaccuracy about the Hell Doctrine with the Laws of Moses, and the Prophets and other scriptures, I will be happy to discuss.

The Conversion is like a Seed Sprouting


It is true that Paul said “what shall I do Lord?”, thx for pointing it to me, I missed that one. This is the first I ever presented about Paul, so I appreciate this opportunity to study this more deeply.
Despite, you need to acknowledge according to scriptures our disposition as a “natural man” , the pre-preparatory work of the Holy Spirit beforehand(the water that swells the seed), and God waiting for the perfect timing to show Himself or to orchestrate an event to bring on the conversion(the zapping of the genetic makeup to bring about the sprout).

Paul respond is equivalent to a sprouting of a seed and it was not a “choice” phenomena but the work of the Spirit of God in you. This is the same principles how God guides the animals, or the plants, which is the same with us. The only difference is that we have a brain to understand what is happening and we can “respond” “intelligently”. The principle is the moving influences of the Spirit of God which is comparable to the invisible wind or leaven in the dough. That’s how God “worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure” Phil 2:13.


I do agree that God does test(try) us and that’s how he purifies us like a refiner who purifies metals in the fire(Mal 3:3). The fire in our life is our afflictions or tribulations(Ps 34:19; Act 14:22; Rom 5:3) that the Lord gives us to refine us. Not to punish us, but to correct us and to purify us. I never studied in dept the Moses incident you specified, so I cannot comment on it.

Correcting Strongs mistranslation of G545 apeithes


Regarding Acts 26:19, and #545, I don’t know what lexicon you are using but according to strongs :




The KJV has inproperly translated them all as disobedient. It is not true to the definition. Let’s also look at the root definition of G3982 to verify this :



So, Paul is actually saying that since the vision he never came unpersuaded or “unconvinced”(apeithes).

Is Disobedience a Choice according to the Bible?




Our disobedience is out of ignorance which is how God describe the sins in Lev 4& 5 for the sin offerings and the trespasses offerings. All are describes as a sin of ignorance. Sin is not due to a “choice” but more accurately described as ” a missing of the mark”. The cause of sin is “unbelief”. The consequence of sin is the breaking of the Law. You cannot believe if you are not convicted first. And to be convicted you first need to hear. And To hear you first need to have your ears opened. And only God can open your ears.

The Bible describes sinners as people that have “gone astray” or are “ lost”. That’s how the Bible describes those that “sin” because they are put in subject to their own corrupt heart, or another word, they are subject to the “vanity” of their mind.

Rom 8:20 “For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope”


I agree he was not alone and he could of went somewhere else with the help he had.

Did Paul Understand God’s Sovereignty


I believe Paul understood about the Sovereignty of God very well and that’s why he made it clear with Rom 9 and 11 and other places relating to it. I do understand that currently you do not see it as an act of overruling Paul’s will despite the fact that you know that Paul intention was to execute Christians in Damascus. If Jesus wouldn’t of intervene, Paul most likely would of continued his way and did what was ordered of him and wanted to do. He admitted that he was as “zealous toward God, as ye(Jewish Leaders) all are this day”.

Does God Rule by Force or by Influence

I do understand that you’re main objection to this is the concept that God “forces” His will on us. Force is not the proper word even when overruling measures are necessary. We see clearly that God overruled King Nebuchednezzar. He was warn a year prior, and when he boasted and took God’s glory for his own, God took away his reasoning ability and he became like a beast of the field. Don’t know if it was figurative or literal, but for sure Nebuchednezzar lost his mind. Force does not consider the individual interest, nor the laws, nor the benefit of the whole universe, but only seek it’s own interest. God considers everything and His interest is one of the last thing He’s considering. We do not view a loving parent disciplining his child like a tyrant. God “worketh all things after the counsel of His own will“ Eph 1:11. It is not force, but discipline, correction, and tutelage.

To describe the manner God works via His Spirit, it is an authoritive “Influence” given always at the perfect timing that makes us resound. God created us easily influenceable, that’s why we are the optimum “free” machine. Free to be moved in any direction according to God’s will in a fraction of a second that is. We’re like a top, spinning at high speed on its own axes that respond/move to the slightest touch. That’s why when we’re not between God’s hand, we are so vulnerable susceptible to be damaged by anything because of our super sensitivity which explain why the root word of mortal man anash H605 (to be frail, feeble, or (fig) melancholy translated as desperate, incurable, sick and woeful).

When an overruling authority is used on immature children, it is often viewed as a “force” by the child because they do not understand, nor do they know parent/God’s character very well. To me this is the real heart of the GC is us not knowing God’s character and not understanding what’s going on because God chose to start us with a blank mind at creation that didn’t have any knowledge. We had “intuition” which comes from God also, but we had no experiences and everything was new.

God is a very personal King and He doesn’t splurge out commands without pre knowledge, consideration, and care of us. He knows where we are at, how to bring us to the next step, and what is our abilities and when we are ready to receive a command. Plus He knows all the details of what is currently happening all around and where the overall needs to go next. God does impose His will and plan on all His subject, for how can a King rule a kingdom if he cannot issue commands to establish His laws and to execute His plans. His commands are important for the sake of all His subjects and the harmony of His kingdom. The King of King does not ask His subjects what He should do, nor if we want to do his commands or not. This is not the place of a subject and it is not how a King rule. However He is a responsible and sensible King that rules righteously and with mercy. Because He created beings with advance “intelligence” and saw wisdom to give them a blank memory at creation; he can and will bring them all to maturity “unto the knowledge of all truth.” 1Tim 2:4 as He promised.

Part 1 of 2 (of NJK Part 3 post)

Using of Helkuo instead of other words available

I don’t think it is overstating it, for I’m deriving the meaning of helkuo from it’s context of being used in the Bible. I agree that Strong could of have made an error in his difinition in his dictionary, but that can be verified by the usage of the word in context in the Bible which makes clear what is the definition of that word. According to the context of usage, Strong’s definition is correct and it does mean drag.

They had other words to use if they wanted to clearly express your current interpretation of the word. They could of used G1448 eggizo or G4334 proserchomai. These two words would of express your current preference, but they didn’t and they chose G1670 helkuo because that’s what they wanted to give as a meaning including Jesus.



Is Jesus Lifted Up Today Vs. God Lift Him up in the Future

John 12:32 says “if I be lifted up”

Currently, with our old covenant tinted Gospel, Christ is not being lifted up. Just as God willed it for the Children of Israel to have the Old Covenant for 1600 years before Christ, he allowed the old Covenant to creep back in our theology soon after the Pentecost. However, God will lift up Christ in His planned timing when He will manifest His glory via the 144K at the end time. The truth will come down as an overflowing scourge(Is 28:2-6,15-29; 30:27-33; Jer 47:2; Ez 13:10-13; Ez 38:22-23; Hab 3:10) so “that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.” Jhn 17:23.


Matt 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen” As this verse is relating to the wedding parable to someone that didn’t have a wedding garment, I think Jesus is referring to the elects vs. those that are not. Only a few are chosen to be a vessel of honor, many are vessels of dishonor as it is very apparent today in the world. Jesus only chose 12 disciples at His 1st coming. God also only chose the nation of Israel to be a holy priesthood, and even got it reduced to the sons of Aaron. That’s the principle God chose to spread the good news. It always has been through a few chosen ones. This selected group is also called the firstfruit which is represented by the barley harvest. There are 3 harvests, Barley, wheat, and grapes. These respectively represent 3 groups of spiritual types of fruits, the overcomers, the believers, and the unbelievers, that requires different harvesting techniques and tools. Is 28:24-29.

The popular assumed ‘call resisting’ is not according to what Paul reveals in Rom 9, Rom 3, 1Co 2:14 and so many other scriptures which I have supplied only a portion of what is there. There are other texts that support what you are saying. So the two needs to be reconciled under one Truth. I’ll come to it later on in a separate post. But now let’s focuss on what the Bible says concerning no “freewill”.

Coming back to John 12:32 “if I be lifted up…will draw all men unto me” , you need to remember, the GC is not over after Jesus 2nd coming and there’s still the great white throne where God will judge the lawless. Then we have a scene that all in heaven and all in earth bow down and confess that Jesus is Lord(Is 45:23, Phil 2:9-11, 1Cor 15:22-28).

Is 45:23 “I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear” Is 45:23

So I see that Biblically it is written that God will make John 12:32 happen and it will be via a long “dragging” (inculcating) process before they come ready for them to confess Jesus as Lord. Time is not an issue for God. He has all the time in the universe and He will take the time needed to accomplish what He has said He will do. Hab 1:12

Catching Fishes and Dragging them into the Boat



All of Jesus object lessons in the parables are deep and wide to ponder on. For sure God knows exactly how to best catch fishes and he showed us in that parable. He cast the net on the “right side” of the boat and drags the fishes into the boat. The choice of these words were specific to describe important dimensions. I have heard two interpretation of what the right side can mean. One says it is the mercy(right side) versus judgment being the left side. Another one said it means the right side of our brain where the intuition, emotion, creation, motivation thinking takes place; versus not by the “left” side with the logic, rational thought, problem solving, and detail oriented thinking that the fishes can be caught/convicted. So I don’t know which one is correct or if both are.

Dragging People to Court


The law system was different in those days under the Roman rulership than today. Romans laws was depicted as an iron rule. I’m sure they dragged the people to court as soon they got their hands on them especially those that were unwilling were more harshly dragged in. When they came to get Jesus, Jesus didn’t have any formal warning before hand. They came in a troop and Jesus didn’t have any choices nor any chance to escape. Of course, Jesus knew before hand this was coming and did submit, yet he was totally circled(like a net circles the fishes) by a group of Jewish authorities that made sure he was brought directly to their court right away. And Jesus didn’t even do anything wrong. Just as James 2:6 says it is the Rich ones that oppresses and brings someone to court. They didn’t even had a case against Jesus and grounds didn’t matter, it is money and power and position that gives them the right. So, they “drag” Jesus over to the Jewish court and after to the Romans courts.

The Merits of Election and Salvation


Your emphasis is on the merits of man for the election. If you hold to this view, then anyone has to be saved by the same principle/rule. Salvation hast to do on the merits of the works of Christ and the mercy of the Father. Nothing to do with man’s merits or doing. All are saved by grace.


I agree with your simple logic. If we stop taking the credit for our own salvation, and start to see it like the Bible says that it is 100% based on the Merits of Christ and to whom the Father shows mercy on; then this basis of salvation means “much more” are saved, even to the extend that ALL are saved ….
“And so all Israel shall be saved as it is written “ Rom 11:26
“Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” 1Ti 2:4
I have over 30 texts of this sort that the Bible says that God will save ALL.

God’s ForeKnowledge


I’m not fully understanding your question, but will try to answer what I think I understand. When I referred to the Type it is mainly Exodus, Deuteronomy, Leviticus, and Numbers. These are the established types by which all these Laws are prophetic and spiritual( Rom 7:14). Jesus gaved us a good example how he spiritually applied the types into antitypes at his sermon ot the mount. We have this tendency to see things literal and we need to develop the ability to understand the spiritual meanings of the laws of Moses.

God had to let the immature children of Israel learn by their mistakes for there own sake and for ours, and to establish the Type to come. 1Co 10:11 “all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.” . Probably what I responded below will further support this concept and address your point above.

James 1:17 “… the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. ”
To me this says God’s flow or stride is constant and straight, he’s never caught offguard. If God doesn’t know what will happen and Israel caused Him frustration and delays, then I would assume that would mean he had to changed to plan B to respond to Israel choices. So to me their would be shadow of turnings in His plans.

John 6:6 “And this he said to prove(test) him: for he himself knew what he would do. ”
This text says Jesus already knew what He was going to do, when he saw the great multitude coming. This is Jesus talking and not the Father. The Father’s knows everything, and I believe He tells Jesus when the time is near for we know that even Jesus doesn’t know the hour of his 2nd coming. So maybe Jesus knew about this as early when he was communing with His Father early that morning. We don’t know.

The Type in Abraham’s two Sons


Isa 5:1:7 God was not taken by surprise with the house of Israel and of Judah rebellion’s(Deut 31:29; 32:1-47) and wild fruits they produced(Deut 32:32). Also, it was prophesied way back with Abraham. Abraham had 2 sons by which the first one was with the bondwoman wife(Gen 16:3) whom Hagar was Egyptians(Gen 16:1). Therefore Ishmael was half Egyptian. His birth was a result of Abraham and Sarah reasoning to give God a little help to bring forth the promised seed. But through man’s works was not how the promise seed was to come. It was through faith.

At that time Abraham’s name was still Abram. The change of his name occurred around 17 years after Ishmael was born. The change of name does not signify the conversion from unbeliever to believer. Abraham was indeed a believer when he begat Ishmael. He was a believer in training like we are all at this present time. The change of name signify the Christian becoming matured = an overcomer. As an overcomer at the age of 99, Abraham was circumcised and only then did he and Sarah conceive Isaac. They conceive Isaac by faith. Hagar and Abraham conceived Ishmael by the “natural man’s” persuasion and works to bring forth God’s promise. Thus, Ishmael was born after the will of man= the flesh. “But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh, but he of the freewoman was by promise” Gal 4:23

God planned this to happen for an object lesson and also to be used as a prophecy of what was to come. What happen to Abraham’s life, happened in history. Even what happened between Ismael and Isaac was prophecy. Ismael persecuted Issac(Gal 4:29), and so did Egypt(Ishmael heritage and who knows maybe his own seeds multiplied there by which he and Hagar probably return to Egypt) put Israel(seed of Isaac) into bondage. Another prophecy fulfillment is that God took “Hagar”(the nation of Egypt) and brought forth the Children of Israel. When Egypt gave birth to Israel, they were half spiritually Egyptians. Israel had God as their father, but Egypt as their mother. That’s why all through the exodus, Israel had both loyalties. In one hand they wanted to go to the promise land; and on the other, go back to Egypt to mommy when they didn’t like daddy’s training and corrections. And so it was.

The Wild-Asses : Ishmael and Israel
The parallele between Abram&Hagar=Ismael and God&Egypt=Israel can be seen when we look at the big picture. In Gen 16:12, God told this to Hagar about her son she was carrying “And he will be a wild man; (pereh adam, “wild-ass man”) his hand will be against every man, and every man’s hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren. ”

The Hebrew word pereh is always translated as “wild-ass” in the KJV except in this verse. That’s too bad that the translator didn’t see the importance and the spiritual correlation because in Jer 2:24 Jerusalem is identified as a “wild ass” : “A wild ass used to the wilderness, that snuffeth up the wind at her pleasure; in her occasion who can turn her away? All they that seek her will not weary themselves; in her month they shall find her. ”

It is evident that Ishmael and Jerusalem were not literal “wild-ass”, but figuratively they were both spiritually wild-asses whose affinity was to the “wild life” or the “natural life” instead of the life of servanthood in God’s house. Jerusalem loved her sexual freedom, who was married to God, but still was quite attracted to her lovers(idols/sin). Israel played the harlot openly in public(like the Catholic), while Judah played the harlot in secret(like the SDAs). Jer 3:4-11 “And the Lord said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah”

So the evidences are there that God knew way beforehand about Israel spiritual wild-ass condition. He even gave them a song to memorize what was to come before they enter the promise land.(Deut 32). Moses even confirmed God preknowledge of Israel rebellion in Deut 31:29 he said “For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way….and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the Lord, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands. ”

It is the works of man’s hand that provokes God to anger. It is the little help of Abram and Sarai that through Hagar a son was birthed via the works of the flesh which was by nature a “wild-ass”(natural man) that could not inherit the kingdom of God. We’re all wild-asses and that’s why Jesus said we need to be reborn from above. Paul said to cast out that bondwoman(that old covenant wild-ass spiritual immature mentality that makes us say silly things like “All that the Lord hath spoken we will do” Ex 19:8.

God’s Reason to Test Man


God test individuals not because He doesn’t know what they will do, but to humble the individual so they can see their own heart(Deut 8:2 “And thou shalt remember all the way which the Lord thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments or no. ”) or for other purposes.

Gen 22:12, Here, I believe the test was for Abraham sake to understand more deeply the sacrificial services contrary to the pagans. Through that experience, Abraham saw Jesus’ sacrifice, which Jesus confirmed this experience by saying “your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad. ” John 8:56

Exod 15:25 Was another plain example of showing their heart. God brought them to some bitter waters and let the immature people complain about it. God knew they were going to complain as always, but if God had brought them to sweet water directly, the people wouldn’t had the opportunity to see their heart condition. So God created this situation to teach the people what is the nature of their natural heart so to create an opportunity of a need for Jesus. Thus God cast a tree which represented Jesus in the bitter water, and made it sweet. So it was an object lesson for them to see what God can do with Jesus in them. This complaining habit is the result of a heart of unbelief. That’s what the GC is all about.

Exod 16:4 Is another teaching tools God gaved the Israelite an opportunity to exercise their trust in God by receiving their daily needs of manna. This is the Type that we should eat our daily bread whom Jesus is the body. However, even thought they had their physical belly full, they still complained. Again, so they could see the nature of their heart there also,

2Ch 32:31 Hezekiah’s story, well I was reading about him just two weeks ago, and I failed to study it in dept. So I cannot comment on it right now. But superficially just the way the text reads, it’s another case that God is showing Hezekiah’s heart. If God doesn’t create incidences for us to see our own heart, we won’t know where we are at and how far we are from him and our need of Jesus.

I like your view and thx for sharing this. So probably God created a situation for the purpose of Moses to step up to be an intercessor. Moses taking this “decision” doesn’t mean that God didn’t prepare him for it before hand, and didn’t create the situation, for him to stand up for what He was made for. Yes, God needed an intercessor on earth and Moses was His man. This requirement/need is according to the law of redemption and the duty of the priesthood. Moses was indeed the ga’al/intercessor needed for the people. So all went according to plan while fulfilling God’s Laws.

God working with Saints Vs. Wicked

I have described in the previous post just above this one under the header “Does God Rule by Force or by Influence”. Basically, God does not force but “move” people with His influences those he has chosen. Most are left subject to their corrupt heart, however, always to a certain limit and within his plans. If the wicked or immature saints way stand in the way of God’s will, God will overruled them and divert their path to another direction.

Why does it take Time to Mature Man?

So why does God need to work so long to get a mature people? Because it takes time for God’s Laws to be written on our heart(mind). First of all, in His wisdom, God chose to close our ears(Deut 29:4-5) and even till today most Christianity don’t even know God’s Laws because they don’t study them as they see them as nailed to the cross. Even SDAs are guilty of this. For sure we know about the Sabbath, but there are many more laws that are needed to be learned and acknowledge, and put into our daily life practice. He is letting the people learn Righteousness Is 26:9 via trials as stated in the previous post. He is correcting, disciplining, humbling, and forming the minds of his people so that His laws will be properly written there and not on an exterior piece of paper or on stones like it was with the Israelites at Mt Sinai with the old convenant. With the “new” covenant the laws are written on our heart(Jer 31). This was always God’s pursuit from the very beginning of creation. And that requires much much time. This is to show that he doesn’t force it, but rather let us learn it within our abilities with him beside us teaching us His ways and showing us His heart, just like any parent does with their own children. We all know these principles with our own children. It takes time to bring a child to full maturity. It took 99 years to bring Abraham to full maturity when he became an overcomer an received his new name of victory.

It was basically not the time. At Pentecost the believers only had a down payment of the Spirit of God. There are 3 levels of Maturity depicted by the Feasts: Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles. The Passover was fulfilled by the Israelites when they left Egypt. They had the basic faith of Justification by which it is the blood of the Lamb that Justified them. But, they did not enter the Pentecost level at Mt Sinai. They couldn’t handle hearing God’s voice and they stepped back. They couldn’t handle it because they were not ready and God knew that. So the Pentecost level of faith was only fulfilled at Pentecost, but Pentecost is only a transition between Passover and the Tabernacles Level of faith. So why so little converted then? Because they didn’t have the full measure of the Spirit, and only a downpayment that only could convert a little. Then after that, many reverted back to the Passover Level of faith and took that Old covenant life again.

Concerning the Jews destruction in AD 70, it is the same as the destruction before. It is based on the same Laws of God. Whatever get puffed up, must come down. It happened twice, and it will happen again as most are quite puffed up today.

God knows where we are in maturity and is not going to force anyone into conversion. He prepares the heart before hands. God keeps our ears closed until we are ready to hear. The opening of the ears happens after the heart is ready to hear. So God kept the Israelites ears closed, kept the new Church after the Pentecost experience ears closed, till today. However, He still holds us accountable for all the laws we personally break. God will take His level of accountability, but God will also hold the individuals to their own liabilities. All the guilty will be judged at the big white throne according to the Laws of God and justice will be served properly and thoroughly.

The Cause of Immaturity


The immaturity is due to our unbelief and the fact that our mind were blank at creation. The fact that our mind was blank at creation, there was the necessity to write the laws of God in our mind as the opportunity came through living and walking with God. After the fall our minds has now corruptness embedded in it which makes the task even harder since the corruptness needs to be removed before the rewriting of God Laws.

The writing is not done by force, but by living and growing with God and Him teaching us His Righteousness meaning His ways, His mind, His heart, etc...

A teacher is the one that is in control of its class. He chooses the material to teach, the techniques at times is tailored to the case and the individuals, he repeats material in many ways and via practicum until the student learns it well and the lesson taught becomes second to nature. The students do not learn what he chooses, but rather what the teacher sees is important for the student to learn. A good teacher will also let the student learn by their mistakes because you learn more effectively that way and that’s why God chose to let us go to the imagination of our hearts when we fell, however, he’s there with us all along the way correcting us through our trials and pulling our attention to the needed lessons. God’s will is to save all His children and to do that He needs to teach them Righteousness(Is 26:9; Hab 1:12).

Unbelief is the root of sin. You cannot force a person into believing in you. Trust is built with time with the person and seeing the teacher in action and receiving his corrective kindness builds trust. This is what the Lord is doing when He is teaching us. You cannot have true “obedience” with an outward form of Baalim(MasterSlave) type of worship. True “obedience” and worship comes from the heart of faith that comes with a marriage type relationship where we call Him Ishi(Husband) Hos 2. This is the maturity God is working on Israel, His future bride to be.

Does God Sovereignty over Man’s will make Him Responsible for Sin?


The Bible is very clear in the law of Jubilee that God’s mind in the matter is to restore all back to their inheritance(Lev25:8-13) which means our inheritance which was given initially to mankind at the garden of Eden. All will be saved because all debts(sin is equated as a debt…see the Lord’s prayer) are erase regardless if they are paid in full or not at the Jubilee. The Laws of Liabilities states that God is ultimately responsible for all sins(Ex 21:28-34; Deut 22:8) and He must die. The Laws of redemption states that the next of kin have the right to redeem his brother(Lev25:49) which Jesus had that right by becoming a man. All these laws and the others, lay out clearly the truth about God’s Plan of Salvation. This is the Type that God establish in the Laws of Moses which is the foundation of all truth. The Prophets prophecied according to this Type, therefore Prophecies are an application of the Type, and if they are not in harmony with the Type, then it is not coming from God. Without understanding the Type, true prophecies cannot be understood properly, and the false prophets cannot be discerned. If the Type is not studied and understood, then there’s no way anyone can come to understand the Truth about the Plan of Salvation.

Sovereignty & FreeWill & Force & Sevanthood


You seem to not understand how God works via the power of love. I think that’s why you only see “force” possible with no freewill. Animals don’t have our ability of reason, but they do know love and they respond to it very well. With Love, you can better train a dog or any animals. Plants even respond to Love. Even water molecules crystallizes differently with Love versus hatred. This is how God moves all things it is with His character(His Laws) which reflect His name that John describes – Agape.

You are being dualist in your own belief because in one side you claim God is Sovereign and in the other side, you claim we have free choice, and our free choice over rules God’s. The two doesn’t go together and it is not what the Bible teaches either. We are servants and always will be servants. Servants serves the will of their masters. Plus the Bible depicts God’s people as a wife, a good wife always serves her husband. It’s not the other way around when it comes to setting up the plans and directions. God does serve us, because He is our provider. But He is not under our will to be manipulated and telling Him what to do.

Part 2 of 2 (of NJK Part 3 post)

Purpose of Reason

Up to now I have found one text in the Bible that explicitly tells us the purpose of reasoning. I haven’t really applied myself to study this yet. I came across this text when studying some other stuff.

Ps 47:7 “For God is the king of all the earth: sing ye praises with understanding ”(sakal, intelligence)

I’m sure there’s more but I haven’t digged them out yet. One additional thing I would like to mention regarding for the reason why God gaved us the ability to reason, is God created the Heavens and the earth. In Heaven, God created the angels to be His witness in heaven and to establish things there via the angels. To do that, he gives certains Angels authority. However, their authority is not beyond the King of King and it is always to be used to be an extension of God Himself in them serving others and to establish His Laws and ways in the Kingdom. The same applies for the Kingdom on earth. God gives authority to men to rule and establish God’s ways and rule on earth. God does not give authority to angels to establish things on earth, or men to establish things in heaven. So for the kingdom of God to be establish on earth, trusted matured men are needs to be given the authority. In Gen 1:26-28 we have God giving Adam this authority when He said “

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. ”

This was the first authority given to man and this authority was always passed down to a son of God’s choosing. So it is God’s purpose that man can mature into “sonship of God” and be an overcomer having the fullness of God dwelling in them so that they can be an extention of God’s mind and will on earth to rule and subdue the earth according to God’s Laws. This is another purpose of God giving us the ability to reason, for if we have God’s ways and mind inprinted in our minds thus become an image of God, then we can rule this earth in Righteousness and Justice. But this to be an ability, we need to know His Laws first, and God’s mind and God’s Heart so we can recognize His voice and His ways when He speaks to us in that small still voice.


Is 1:18 “Come now, and let-us-reason-together, saith the Lord: ” let-us-reason-together is one Hebrew word Yakach H3198. The literal translation of this word should be “and-we-shall-correct”.

You can see that the Hebrew word Yakach was mainly translated as reprove, rebuke, and correct. It was only translated twice as reason. Reason somehow needs to come in the definition of being rebuked, as I recalled looking at these texts, I could see the primary meaning of reprove in the contexts. But I need to review these to have a better grip of extracting the proper definition and come to know God’s definition of this word.

So the Lord’s invitation here is not ‘to come and reason together’ but according to the Concordant literal translation Is 1:18 “Go you! Please! and we-shall-correct saith Yahveh…”

I discovered this just 2 months ago when I made an attempt to study the purpose for our reasoning abilities. I decided to start with Is 1:18 and look at all the occurences of Yakach in the Bible. When I started to note down in my study journal Strong’s word definition, I was totally stunned. It was not what I expected and since I had already written everything out in the journal, I decided to just go ahead and finish that word study. Then after I got distracted with others studies since there are always so many coming to the surface. So I never got to tackle this study yet.

Many times by studying specific words and deriving the meaning from the context, has changed my view quite a bit. What I discovered that our meanings of words in the english (or French) language has the world/pagans definition embedded in them. I saw that I had to redefine words according to the Hebrew philosophy which I believe it is in harmony with God’s thinking and language.
So from this word study I found a gem text that I use quite often. It is Hab 1:12.

We’re Ordained for Judgment and Established For Correction

Hab 1:12 “Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction(YaKach)”.

God’s plan of salvation is layed out very clearly here in perspective of time, in perspective if any of us will die, in perspective how he will deal with his children. He has ordained us for judgment. Currently, I’m studying God’s judgment. Just like any other words, we can have the world perspective in our definition and we could have an incorrect view and understanding of God’s judgment. So, we need to always seek God’s view and definition. Currently the North America’s justice system is geared up to be a punitive system where the judgment is a punishment and afterward the criminal’s is put in prison where there’s no true restorative aid for him available, and the criminal didn’t have the chance to pay for the damage according to the law of Moses therefore the victims never received proper restitution for the wrong commited to them. Our society defines that justice is served if the criminal is put to prison or put to death. True justice is only serve when restitution is given to the victim and the criminal is restore. This is God’s way to bring true justice. All His Laws given to Moses defines the proper restitution for an offence. Where there is stoning it spiritually means the law.

Satan Temptation at the Tree & Freewill


The illusion that decisions or the will comes from us is very persuasive and very hard to see God behind the scene. God chose it this way, to be invisible. Accepting the possibility that our thinking was ‘our will’ was by ‘design’ very persuasive for we were incredibly wonderfully made. So that’s how Satan could ‘tempt’ us. I don’t believe Satan was tempting us at all, he believed this himself. He really believed that we could figure out how to lead our own life by knowing what was good or bad and we didn’t need to be under God’s authority.


It is not over NJK. There’s still lots of time ahead and God’s plan has steps. Soon we will enter in the millennium age where the Kingdom of God will be given to His Saints.

God’s Will vs. Us breaking God’s Laws


It is true that God ultimately allows everything that happens. But that doesn’t means that what is happening is in harmony with His laws and His ways. He allowed it because He’s merciful and longsuffering and is Wise and all powerful. He understands our immaturity state and has taken charged to teach His Children and to bring them in harmony with His Ways and Laws. This is His will. So things are moving along according to His will despite that we are still not full grown yet, and are breaking His laws. Since He is Sovereign He is ultimately responsible for everything that happens since He allowed this from the beginning, and has the control to stop everything and anything.

If God is Sovereign over our Will, what’s the point of convincing about the Truth?


Our function is to teach God’s ways and mind according to the Laws of Moses. As part of the Holy Priesthood, we are to eat the sin offering which means to bear the sins of our fellowman in intercession prayers and teaching them God’s Laws and to instruct them how to make full restitution for their sins. When we do that and teaching them about the ways of God in His Kingdom, we unite with God’s effort to teach His children and get that brain properly wired to know and to trust God.

Cruise Control Analogy



Since when does a car drives itself? Your error is assuming that the car can drive itself, just as you are assuming that we can drive ourself. That’s the whole point of the fatality of the “freewill” concept error. We cannot drive ourself anymore than a car can. The one that put on the cruise control, presses on the brakes and the accelerator is God, not us. Plus, cruise control needs electricity, and a mechanic to maintain it when it wears off.


:+)
Is there a Good Hebrew Literal Interlinear Bible Available Anywhere?


Oh! My interlinear is not English based it is a Hebrew literal translation done by Concordant and is available for free at scripture4all.org I had checked a few verses with the Tanakh and they seem to agree. It’s a very nice software and very good literal translation.

BTW. Would you know if there’s available a good Hebrew literal English translation of the OT with the Masoretic text and the Strong codes available? I have here Green’s 4 volume set and it’s just junk. There’s some good literal translation, but most is the same English incorrect translation that he seems to follow KJV translation.

Does the Bull Turn Himself?


I’m glad you agree that God initiate the turning, and it is true that the person/bull does turn, but it is not they that completes it alone. The Bible and Jesus said that there’s nothing we can do without God. Absolutely nothing and that includes all the chemical reactions that happens in our body and muscles activation to make that turn.

Nothing is Automatic in this Universe

I agree with EGW in her statement that there’s nothing in this universe that is automatic. I am quoting EGW to spare me some typing and her writing is better than mine, but there’s lots of scriptures that says that God guides all things and I can bring Biblical support if you would like.

So God is behind the bull’s turning also in every tiniest possible step that orchestrates the turn. That is why it is truthfully written “For it is God which worketh in you BOTH to WILL and TO DO of his good pleasure. ” Phil 2:13


God knows when it is time to give the command to turn. God will not issue a command out of season and He never ‘miss the mark’.

Mat 28 and God’s way to Teach


The command that Christ gaved in Mat 28:20 was to “teach” them to-be-keeping all things “I-direct”(g1781) to you. So this is our commission. We are to teach others not in the fashion of the evangelistic seminars SDAs do today. This was never Jesus fashion of teachings. But to work side by side with his disciples in going town to town to relieve the sufferings. In doing that, the student learns very fast and much by example. Plus the heart of the student is bonded to His teacher which facilitate the learning and the teacher can correct them more efficiently. The teacher opens up Scriptures and teaching them God’s moral Laws, how God defines sins, how God rule the land and nations, how God corrects the people, how God will Restore His people, Nations, His Kingdom on Earth. In this way the teacher reveals God’s heart and mind in His Plan of Salvation. All these things are shown via the teachings the Laws of Moses – the Type – the foundation of All TRUTH, and the prophets – the Application of the Type.

Why Many today Leave the Church and Where is God’s Church


As explained in the Natural Man section in the post above, God left us to the subjection of our heart, so to humble us when we can see that there’s nothing good in it. That’s how he corrects us. He overrule our “will” when it is contrary to His grand plan.

Since God worketh all things and has established all authorities on earth, then we can say that the Church we are in right now and its existence was God’s will despite that it is so Laodicean. He can use the Church pathetic state to show us further the nature of our heart.

The reasons people leave the SDA Church is because they don’t have the message, it is a man-led organization, they are only a form of godliness, they do not know nor reflect God’s mind and heart, and they are a business oriented organization. I do believe God has a real Church who are simple people connected to Jesus directly who he is preparing/training them to be one of the overcomers/144K that will rule with Him in this coming Millennium/Tabernacle age. I believe these people are scattered in all different denominations and are not denominationilized.


I forgot to put decision in quotes. As stated in details here under the “Natural Man” title the decision that is executed in our minds is the desires/will that came from whomever we are married to. It is not ours, but we agree with it and have an affinity towards it. Actually, the wicked or immature believers won’t always agree to their hard slavemaster called sin.

Jesus Evangelistic Method via the Elected

God is first preparing His saints. That’s is His focuss, just like Jesus didn’t focuss on training everyone when He came. His focuss was on the 12 disciples by teaching them personally. They worked together and ministered to the people; however, the disciple’s training was God’s main objective. After His resurrection, there were 40 assembled at the upper room who receive the Holy Spirit. Then afterwards thousands were convicted daily and was added to their numbers.
God has a plan and it doesn’t entails to reach everyone at once. There are 3 harvests depicted in the feasts(Barley/Overcommers, Wheat/believers, and Grapes/unbelievers) which are Types of the order of which God prepares the people.

Sovereignty Means Ultimately in Control of Everything


Could you specify my sub views if you still see it after reading all of this. Basically, God is ultimately in control of everything including Satan. Satan cannot do anything unless God allows him. The Bible is clear that Satan is not allow to touch one hair out of head unless he has the permission.


Ultimately means, God is in control over all things and “who worked all things after the counsel of His own will”. Ep 1:11. There’s no being’s “will” that is above God’s. God will overrule any individual “will” if and when it obstructs with His plans. God has all the powers and authority and He gives to whom He pleases according to His Wisdom and plan. Right now Satan has some power and anything the Devil does, God gave him permission first. We see this clearly in the book of Job. Even God brought Job to the attention of Satan(Job 1:8). God knew Satan was going to jump on the occasion and God set up the limits on what Satan could do. God often will bring many hardship to His saints and the nations so they may learn to forgive. Often Christians blames God or fight Satan for their troubles, when their hardship was given by God for their own growth. Satan is God’s servant(Job 41). We need to have the attitude of Joseph who understood that God is behind everything and works things out for their good. This is what I mean by “Ultimately”.


Approval of whatever ways our imagination’s(of our idols) pursuit may be whether of the lust, the hatred, the envy, the bitterness, or etc. That means wherever our minds leads us, or whatever events or influence we get, by which our current “choice” reflects these. Our reasoning formulated some “cognitive persuasion” that we need to do this or that. This “persuasion” is a product of the ruling of ignorant and vulnerable corrupted heart filled with vanity and lot’s of imagination. God leaves us to do what our imagination dictates as long as it’s not in the way of His grand plans. However, He also watches over us and will work with where we are at so the consequences of these “choices” can humble us by showing us our natural/wild and vulnerable and ignorant heart.

Summary

I’m sure this conversation would of taken a different direction, if you had read my first reply of your long and well appreciated 3 part post before writing the two last one. Most likely some of your objections would have been answered in my first reply. So please forgive the redundancy of the replies since your questions was a little redundant also in nature because of what you didn’t know at the time.

I really do appreciate your time in reading and replying thoroughly all my points. Also I appreciate your concern to me that you express in the first sentence of your summary.

I have supplied solid scripture basis and I believe I have been consistent in my presentation and I am not lacking harmony. However, if you see some lack, I would appreciate that you would point them to me. I have maintained the true definition of the Sovereignty of God within the context of sinful man in this GC. Whereas your belief is dualist in nature by saying God is Sovereign on one side and Man’s choice cannot be over-ruled on the other. You are making man’s will above God’s. Thus you’re making man sovereign also. You haven’t given any solid argument up till now to disprove what I’ve presented. Anything you want to add, I’ll be happy to discuss this further.

Okay Elle. As per your original request, as I better understand it now, I’ll focus on one section at a time. (Not necessarily in posted order).

First the Greek term elko “drag #1670. While the lexical comparison you make is telling of what its pointed meaning is, indeed “to drag” there are a couple of exegetical issues that challenge your “no free will” view here.

-As it appears in John 6:44 it is in the Greek subjunctive mood. That is the mood of “probability” The other Greek Moods, listed by degree of certainty, are: “assertion/certainty” (indicative mood); “possibility” (optative); “(volitional) intention” (imperative). (See e.g. Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, 748-751). The Subjunctive mood depicts an action (or state) as uncertain but probable.

My scholarly approach when faced with a subjunctive is to ask where is the ‘(probable) uncertainty.’ So in this case in John 6:44, where God to do the “dragging”, is it that:
a. God may or may not do the dragging
b. the targeted people may or may not be drag

I think that Jesus knew that the Father would do His part, so I see choice (b) as the area of uncertainty.

Then if as you say, these people have no freewill but what God commands, then why the uncertainty? Even if this is been seen as a probable, it manifestly is ‘uncertain’ because these targeted people may not allow themselves to be dragged. Indeed God is going to “target” some people for this dragging and not clearly everyone, therefore the question indeed is why is it still uncertain that these chosen/targeted people may not be drawn? I can only see because they have free will and therefore can choose to be dragged or not.

-Indeed I believe that the early pioneers of the Church, being “choice people” were handpicked by God as “firstfruits”. However I see they had a choice to fulfill this “election” or not. Jesus had first done this by selecting the 11 (Judas volunteered his “services”) from a larger groups of early followers, and here Jesus was speaking to that larger group of followers. Indeed Jesus was pointedly addressing the fact that some of his supposed believer/followers started to grumble amongst themselves at his saying (John 6:41, 42) and Jesus thus told them that they should not be surprised that they were grumbling. Meaning that they should not be surprised that they were expressing doubts about Him.

I think given this exegetical Biblical context DA 391.2-392.1 provides interesting insight on this episode. In DA 392.1 she speak of these disciples having made a “choice” to not continue to follow Jesus here.

-Not in John 12:32* the word “drag” is used again. This time in the most certain of moods (indicative) and in the future sense. Now does mean that Jesus will “certainly” force everyone to believe in Him, and even if they do not want to? I have never seen so, as it should have occurred, at least by the resurrection. Does this instead mean this will surely occur by the end of time? If so then that “all” (Greek “pas”) did not mean “all” as billions of people died in most evident wicked states. So I can only see that even if a ‘dragging of God/Jesus’ occurs the dragged ones still have a choice. Therefore the “dragging” that took place at the Cross was merely in drawing the attention of all, somehow to the cross where they could make a knowing choice for or against it. And that global drawing/dragging work was to be tangibly done through Christ’s disciples. As Jesus had described earlier on this ‘lifting up’ issue, only those who believed would be save (John 3:14, 15). Thus that drawing on the Cross was indeed in Jesus, when He would be uplifted, becoming, like Moses serpent, the only focal point for life. So all who wanted to be saved, would have to look at Him and believe.

*By the way, I understand the “if” in that verse to be in relation to whether Jesus would go through with that grueling ordeal or not. (Luke 12:49, 50). He indeed had to ‘“constrained Himself” so that it may be accomplished (by God) ((passive) subjunctive mood.

I’ve edited this post as I found I didn’t express myself clearly enough. I did added 3 small paragraph clump together in the middle of the post entitle (1)God is The Lord(Sovereign) our God,(2)How our Minds got Corrupted. and (3) Whosoever shall Exalt Himself shall be Abased. Otherwise nothing was taken out or added just edited for clarity sake.



Thx.


I’m glad you agree that helkuo means drag.

With respect to Mr. Wallace, I read in a linguistic forum about the Ancient Greek subjunctive aorist, and it looks like there’s much debate and much uncertainty about this mood. Someone knowing his Greek quite well, fluent in Spanish, make the point that in the Spanish language this “is obsolete, and was subsequently discarded through ordinary people’s sense of logic.” So it makes me suspect the practicality of the one who translated the NT into Greek in the first place. Just like any field of knowledge, people can complicate unnecessarily anything because there are so caught up in all the details of it.

Was the NT written in Hebrew originally? Some claim that. We also need to acknowledge the fact that the Greek NT manuscripts(over 4000 which were copies of copies of copies of copies…) used for the translation were copies from after 700 AD. That 600 years after the Pentecost phenomena. Already, it is not far fetch to suppose that already some doctrinal errors was in the people’s pre-conceived thinking. Also, Its inevitable to do some errors during all the copying that was done. Errors was sought to be eliminated via comparing manuscripts. However, to be realistic, some errors must of remained in the manuscript used for today’s translations including the KJV. However, we’re talking about the NT above. I hear that the OT is more reliable because of the Masoretic dependability. I’m not saying this to cast shade of the inspiration nature of Scriptures and I believe God knew this and that’s why God repeated His truth enough in different books that we can still find it. Thus, often we need to draw a conclusion on the bulk of the evidences that God provided throughout His word and test all doctrines against the foundation by which the Law of Moses provides.

I view your point quite weak because the Aorist subjunctive is a much debated, uncertain and unpractical linguistic tense and mood which could be a linguistic vanity of a translator. However the word helkuo stands on its own merits of its meaning and it does challenge by itself the conventional Christians false Doctrines.


I see a (c.) and I have listed as a (d.) the plain text as it reads. If I would put time in thinking, I’m sure I can come up with some other possibilities in your list, so your deduction doesn’t work.

c. you may or may not be dragged to me(Jesus) in this age.
There is 3 other ages to come that I know of (1) the Millenium (2) after the Millenium (3) after the Judgment of the Great White throne.

D. to me the subjunctiveness you are seeking for is found where I underline in the text “No one can come to Me(Jesus) unless the Father drags Him”. As plain as that. I see this same meaning is express in the other translations too. Below I have listed 4:

KJV : “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.” Jhn 6:44.

NIV : “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. Jhn 6:44.

Young “no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day;” Jhn 6:44.

NLT : “For people can't come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them from the dead..” Jhn 6:44.

Considering the Context of John 6:44

I find the context is where John 6:44 eliminates any argument of exactly what this text says is meant to say. Here’s a bullet of the context:

- People Make Jesus King : The people were looking for Jesus to make him king(v.15) after Jesus had fed the 5000(v.10). These people wanted a king after their own flesh that could solve all their present temporal problems(v.26).
- People seeking Physical Bread : So Jesus addresses their present spiritual problems “Verily, verily, …you seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled” Jhn 6:26
- Jesus is the Spiritual Bread : Jesus tells them what they need is “the true bread from heaven” v.32 “that he that cometh to me to me shall never hunger” v. 35
- People Saw, but didn’t Believe : Then Jesus state the current fact that despite they saw the miracle and sees Him they still didn’t believe him Jhn 6:36 “But I said unto you, that ye also have seen me and believe not.”
- Jesus tells them the reason why they couldn’t believe: John 6:37 ”All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.”
- Comparing v.37 with v.44 are same statements: Both of these verses talk about who can “come to Jesus”, and both says that it is done via the Father. These are statements that gives the reason for their unbelief. Basically V.37 says “All the Father giveth me shall come to me”, in v. 44 gives a little more detail by stating “No one can come to me, unless the Father drags him”

God is The Lord(Sovereign) our God
Both v.36 & v.44 states the basic principle that first the Father does the work to bring people to Jesus. This work is the preperation of the minds through the trials the Father has tailored for each individuals. All our trials has the same objective, it is to bring us to the realization that God is The Lord our God. There are nearly 200 texts in the Bible stating the purpose of these trials which is written similarly to this fashion “ye shall know that I am the Lord your God” . Our sanity depends on us knowing our place in our relationship with God and not to elevate ourself beyond reality and steal God’s glory. Basically we are to come to realize that we are nothing but dust – highly organized dust. With this understanding we would humbly speak as Abraham did in Gen 18:27 “And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which [am but] dust and ashes:” .

How our Minds got Corrupted

The fall of Lucifer was due that he elevated himself(Eze 28:17 “Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: ”) which is how his mind got corrupted. This principle of the origin of sin is stated in Rom 1:21 “Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. “ We continually elevate ourself too and we are ignorant of how God works in us. Ep 4:18 “Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:” ).

Whosoever shall Exalt Himself shall be Abased

God needs to bring us back to our proper place and teach us the truth on how things really works(Hos 2:8-13)) and come to know to what extend that God is Sovereign by which He “worketh all things after the counsel of his own will” Ep1:11. Only then we will regain our reason just like he did with King Nebuchednazzar. We are all guilty of the same sin of King Nebuchednazzar’s in taking God’s glory(Dn 4:30). Jesus said “whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased” Mat 23:12 There’s many other texts stating this as in Is 2:12 “For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low.”

We need to stop putting ourself above God and acknowledge that God’s Sovereignty includes dragging someone to Christ against their “natural man” ‘will’.

God’s Sovereign work include Opening our Spiritual Ears

We know that “faith come by hearing and hearing by the word of God” (Rom 10:17). Just because we naturally can hear sounds and can make up its meaning very intelligently, doesn’t mean that you really understood(spiritually heard). It is merely a carnal or “natural” mind persuasion to the validity of a particular fact or view. Intellectual persuasion is not the same as faith nor can it produce it.

The people fed in John 6:36, and the Jewish leaders in John 8:43 both couldn’t hear(understand) Jesus speech. Jesus said the reason was “… because ye cannot hear my word.” Jhn 8:43 So since we know that their natural or physical ears did hear Jesus speak, therefore Jesus must be referring to a spiritual ear that was closed.

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.” 1Cr 2:14

This closed spiritual ear is what unable us to believe(Jhn 6:36). And it is due to the fact that the Father hasn’t given them to Jesus yet (Jhn 6:37) by the means of “dragging”(John 6:44).

Then how can we have our spiritual ears open?

(1) God first shows mercy on whom He wants(Rom 9:15)
(2) God “drags” that person to Jesus, (John 6:44)
(3) then Jesus speaks the word of God in your mind(Prov 8)
(4) And you hear(in Hebrew -shama’ H8085 - hear or obey is the same word. They make no distinction between the two.)

So the ability to hear depends First on the Father when He exercise His Sovereignty over man’s will to bring them to Jesus, and only then Jesus voice can be heard. The “dragging” are the trials we go through that soften our heart which prepares our minds to hear Jesus voice when it is time. So it depends 100% on the Father’s will to open/prepare someone’s spiritual ears or not. Let’s see if we have other scriptures that supports that:

-Moses acknowledge this fact to the Israelites before they entered the promise land : Deut 29:4 “Yet the Lord hath not given you and heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day. 5. And I have led you forty years in the wilderness…”.

-God states this fact to Isaiah to tell Israel before their destruction : Is 6:9 “And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.”

-Isaiah confirmed this in his prayer by putting the liability on God for making them err : Is 63:17 “ O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

-Paul confirms this by restating Is 6:9 in his own words : Acts 28:26 “Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: 27. For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.



There is no uncertainty with God. God is All powerful. ”With God all things are possible” Mt 19:26 His word “shall not return unto me void”(Is 55:11). Plus God never misses the target!


No one will be force but rather God will influence(woe) us and will subdued everyone to His Power as written in Scriptures. Here are the following reason why everyone will respond to God :

1- We are created in His image : This means that are cells and whole being are design to respond to him and to know his voice. The only part of our body that is not in harmony with God, is our mind. This is what needs to be rewired.

2- Our desires becomes the same as the one we are married to : Gen 3:16. It will take time for God to woe us back, and when all is done, we will respond like a typical woman respond to her husban(Hos 2:16,23).

For more information about force is not God’s way, see previous post #132621 under the tiltle Sovereignty & FreeWill & Force & Sevanthood” and #132516 title “Does God Rule by Force or by Influence”. .

Could you give me support where it says that in the Bible?


You are implying this and I have in the past before I came to study about this. There’s many gaps in the Bible concerning the futur after Jesus 2nd coming that we tend to fill them with speculations. The truth is found in understanding the Jubilee Laws which is the most important Type of the plan of salvation. We SDAs have not been studying these and that’s why we are as ignorant as other denominations concerning these question. EGW and AT Jones where coming to realize the importance of studying the Laws of Moses. These are the only foundation(the Types) that God provided for us to know the Truth about His plan of Salvation and what is there to come.







According to the definition of the word Pas it means “all, any, every, the whole”. All means all and would include all people that were ever born on earth. When God said all, he means all.

“And so all Israel shall be saved as it is written “ Rom 11:26; Is 59:20

“Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” 1Ti 2:4

Elle, I appreciate your expanded response however I see that it is important to start with and have a proper exegetical foundation, or else we will be only stating personal opinions. Therefore I will first only focus on these foundational exegetical aspects, and that first vers of John 6:44.

Unfortunately I can only “afford” succinct answers here:

-You’ll need to provide a link to and/or the text of that linguistic forum statement. That person’s comparison to what has occurred in Spanish with the subjunctive mood is not at all determinative of what might have occurred in New Testament Greek. Case in point, the subjunctive is still used in many modern languages, such as French. I have not checked, as it is still not determinative to 1st century NT Greek, but it may still be used in modern Greek.

-All of the published NT Greek grammars that I have consulted do not say anything about a loss of meaning for the subjunctive. They only suggest that the optative mood, the mood of possibility may have come to be included within the subjunctive. So there is no debate about the subjunctive mood. (The aorist tense is inconsequential to the mood)

-Also argument of “dead/deponent” grammatical forms are entirely and purely subjective, because one cannot ask the author if they meant to have a actual meaning in its use or a empty one. My question is always, why go through the trouble of composing that form if that’s not what you meant. It is like me saying: “I may run in the Olympics” when I actually meant, knowing as a certain fact that: “I am going to run in the Olympics”. I only use subjunctive if there is some sort of uncertainty involved.

-The argument that NT Greek manuscripts date from the 7th century on is false. I have a copy of the Nestle-Aland Greek Bible (27th Edition0 (UBS 4) and it lists in the back the hundreds of principal MSS that they used for their work, and most of them are dated before the 7th century, going as far back as the 2nd century A.D.

-You do realize that I can make the same completely unsubstantiated ‘mal-translation’ argument for the text which you claim prove your view. I.e., the Church switched the meaning of those text to say what you are implying.

-And if that ‘mal-translation’ was really done to MSS then why did it not occur for the verses you claim that support your view. Why is it only the ‘probable case’ for e.g., John 6:44?? That sound way too subjectively convenient for me.

-only the book of Hebrews and Matthew have ever been said to have had an Aramaic (and not Hebrew) origin. The rest of the books were intended for Gentile audiences, including John’s works (i.e., in that probable order: 3 Letters, Revelation, Gospel) which are all probably the latest written works in the NT.

-the fact that Greek and not Latin was used, with the Greek Empire having been defeated over 200 years before, shows that Greek was the entrenched language in the Roman empire then, even for Jews, and especially for Gentile Christian. Hence why the NT is written in that language. Indeed Luke, Paul, John, Mark (transcribing Peter), were either Gentiles themselves or writing pointedly to Gentile audiences and these did not either speak or understand Aramaic.

-the word translated “unless” is from Greek particle “me” (not, lest) #3361 and not the Greek subordinating conjunction for conditional clauses “ean” (if) #1437.

-conditional clauses are normatively introduced by the “if not” = #1437 & #3361, but the two terms are distinct.

-John 12:24 & Acts 8:31 are examples that the subjunctive does not always have to be used in a conditional statement. In fact it is when the main action is sure to (indispensably) occur that the subjunctive is not used. E.g., ‘fallen grain (though not necessarily dead)’ John 12:24 & ‘a guided blind man’ Acts 8:31.

-If the “dragging” case in John 6:44 was something that God would “certainly” be able to do, then I exegetically see that this theological notion would have been expressed similarly
as in John 3:27, 6:65 where the Father must first “give/grant” something so that ‘it might availably become the case with a man’. Hence, the subjunctive there is on the stative verb focusing on man (eimi - “to be”) and not on what God has to do (give/grant). So the uncertainty is whether or not this state of being given/granted will become the case.

-In the case of “dragging” in John 6:44, as this will depend on whether or not the acted upon subject will “believe”, and that pointedly, the Spiritual Expressions of Christ (cf. John 6:63, 64), which, when they are deciphered meant this would be done by obedience of them in faith (John 6:47-66) thus indeed ‘eating and drinking them’, then the uncertainty is similarly pointedly on if that verbal action would be accomplished. It is not saying as in John 3:37; 6:65 that the “dragging” action itself is certain. Again, as I see it, and more analysis from a large corpus of text may confirm this, that goes back to the issue of not if God is going to do this, but is this action will be successful.

-John 12:32 speaks only to the 31 A.D. crucifixion event. It is only by sermonic license and not proper exegesis that it can be said to be speaking of a future event. “Drag all” there clearly does not have the ‘only eschatological/future age meaning’ that you are eisegetically imposing on it. It meant merely a drawing of the attention of all, with these drawn ones still have the free choice believe or not as Jesus clearly points out in John 3:16.

I think these passages, especially John 12:32 is crucial to your view as it is a theological expression of Christ and exegetically clearly implies free will, as do other statements in the Bible.

Hi NJK,

Once again, thank you for your respond and your time.

I should have been more accurate in my statement, the information I provided stated that all the current modern English translation we have today including the KJV used manuscript which are made from those 4000 copies of copies of copies…. Greek Manuscripts. My source did state that the name of 2 or 3 manuscripts(don’t remember exactly) that dated in the 2nd century however I believe they are not originals and those are not the Manuscript sources the translators used for the english translations which I don’t know why they prefer the others.

Concerning the info on Subjunctive Aorist, I was surfing in all kinds of places to find that info, but the forum link is the following : http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=797348

Oh, I was aware of the word ‘unless’ was not an ideal English translation of the ‘If’ #1437. I didn’t raise it up because I perceived it as a non issue and didn’t want to complicate things. So I underline the standard ‘unless’ translated word as it is more easily readable in my example.
The ean by which occurs 333 times and eantiep by which occurs 3 times, these has been translated in the KJV in 12 different English words. I don’t see any “if not” in the KJV translation, there is “if” (200 times) but no “if not”. The Concordant here has translated it as “if ever” for the ean written form from the manuscript.


“John answered and said, A man can receive nothing; except it be given him from heaven” John 3:27 and the similar text stated in 6:65 ; I See them all stating the same principle as 6:44 and 6:37 and it can be read as plainly as it was written.

For the example of John 3:27,
...- it is not saying that -- some man from the earth is going to received something, and other’s are not.
...- Nor does the text say -- that all the man from the earth is going to received something.
...- It is stating a principle how things work that -- a man cannot receive nothing unless given from heaven.

The same applies for 6:44( and 6:65; 6:36),
...- the text is not saying that only some men are being “dragged”
...- nor that -- all men are being “dragged”.
...- It is stating the principle that – a man can only come to Christ ”unless”(or "if ever") the Father “drags” him.

By your deduction in over simplifying it to 2 possibilities of the subjunctive mood on 6:44 you’ve concluded that this text implies whether they chose it or not when I have listed you 2 others possibilities which would negate your point. To properly derive to the meaning of these texts we need to look at the context they came from and consider other scriptures. And that’s what I have done. However, you only stick on the mood and base your deduction by which you used 2 possible options to come to your bias when actually there are other possible options.

To me your deduction based on a mood is weak especially when context is ignored and other scriptures too. I do understand that it is not to your best interest as you have invested lots of time in building your doctrinal conclusions on the typical assumption that individual have a freewill. So the cost is too great for you. You are not alone and most assume that we have the freewill and it is such a common assumption we don’t even see the necessity to even consider this as a valid question. I wouldn’t of consider it myself if the Lord wouldn’t of brought me there in the first place. Have you even ever really asked yourself sincerely if man had a freewill or not and studied it seriously with your heart?

Regardless of your cost, I personally believe that forums are not the place to be convicted. Real conviction can only come from personally studying the subject with the Lord. If a person don’t engage in the study, well the Father didn’t want it to happen right now. So I’m not expecting anyone to even bother studying this question seriously for themselves.


Oh no, I’ve been studying this question for over a year now and have collected a mass of texts. The word helkuo including John 12:32 is only a new discovery and it was an opportunity to bring it out so to have some feedbacks. I do like to discuss in the forum things I currently am studying, so since I wanted to revise my notes on this, and saw your invitation, I couldn’t resist.

NJK, I personally don’t want to go back and forth on one thing too long. I have expressed my thoughts and so did you. We can move on to the other points, if you like too. However, feel free to express anything else you want to stress about the subjunctive mood before we move on. I’ll give you the last words.

Oh, BTW, What’s MSS?

I appreciate your efforts and desire to arrive at concrete truth here, however, and as I have told you before in other discussions, I also see here several obstacles to having an objective discussion on this topic:

-proper exegesis is a deal maker/breaker for me, and you are not taken in all of the key exegetical contributions here.

-That forum rightly says that there is no future subjunctive, as my written Greek textbooks also emphasize. That is because the subjective is not focusing on an uncertain of whether something will take place in the future, but if the action itself will be done. So e.g., if I say: ‘I may run in the Olympics’ I am not uncertain of whether the Olympics will take place in the future to allow me to run in them, but if, as their happening is a “given”, I will run or not.

-by your view on Manuscripts, we cannot depend on anything written on the Bible since we don’t have an original copy. So what then is the standard here, your view on what is genuine or not??

-I also find your refusal to include EGW on this issue to be unbiblical. I think she makes several key, theologically independent, statements which help to arrive at the proper meaning here, and that does not include any “free will” belief expressions. EGW prophetic gift has been attested and thus is contributively indispensable to Biblical exegesis for me.

-Regardless of when you discover John 12:32 or not, it is still intrinsically, exegetically foundational to this topic. And to me, free will is clearly involved here.

-Taking all of the clear experiential episodes of the Bible into consideration for this topic, I do not see a prima facie case that man does not have free will nor that God is acting to force people to eternal condemnation. If that was the case, the He would be greatly wasting time, since he could have created Adam and Eve to be forced to remain faithful. Frankly speaking, your view does not begin to make any Theological, Biblical, Exegetical (i.e., your interpretation of individual texts), Prophetic, nor Logical sense to me.

Therefore, for all of these reasons, I do not see that the continuance of this discussion as being beneficial and it indeed will be too “costly” for me, not in ideological terms, but in terms of the needed tangible, various resources needed to continue it. I will however take it up later when/if I readily have the various needed resources to do so. Hope you understand!

-MSS is an abbreviated term for Manuscript(s).

As foundationally crucial/determinative.... In your view Elle, why is it Biblically important that people today, especially Christians, ‘understand and believe’ that: ‘we do not have free will, but instead are being irresistibly forced by God to either be good/obedient/faithful or evil/rebellious/faithless?

Thank you NJK for your kind question and considering my thoughts.


Having no Freewill doesn’t mean God Forces us
Before addressing your question, may I address your persistent underlined “force” word. I have explained this several times with biblical support why it is not forced in the following titles and posts#

[1] God Sovereignty in Influence, #132448
[2] Does God Rule by Force or by Influence #132516,
[3] Sovereignty & FreeWill & Force & Sevanthood. #132621.
[4] The Turning of the Farmer’s Ox #132383 ,
[5] Does the Bull Turn Himself? 132622
[6] The Conversion is like a Seed Sprouting #132516,
[7] Why does it take Time to Mature Man? #132621,

There are so many Biblical reasons why the understanding that we have no freewill is important. This concept changes your whole perspective on your outlook of the plan of salvation and does make God Sovereign over all things. Of course what’s important is to have a Biblical perspective which is in harmony with the Laws of Moses and the Prophets. I will state and expand on the most important one and finish this post by providing a list of the others with Biblical support below.

Acknowledging we have no Freewill reverse the Fall of Lucifer and Man

Thinking that we have the inherent abilities is the heart of Lucifer’s fall. This led into the belief that we can govern ourself as gods which he promoted at the tree of knowledge to man(Gn 3:5-6).

How Lucifer fell & Vanity of the Mind

Eze 28:17 "Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness".

Lucifer’s heart was LIFTED UP because of his amazement of his beauty/capabilities. We are wonderfully created and what we think, and what we say, and what we do, appears to come from us. God works secretly within us, and everything we will and do comes from God even our reasoning abilities comes from Him(Dn 4:34,36).

Scriptures doesn’t say here that Lucifer made the "CHOICE" to be Vain. It was a phenomenon that resulted as a product of considering his brightness by which his reasoning got corrupted and darkened his mind and brought on Vanity.

Satan “ hast corrupted” his “ wisdom by reason of” his “ brightness" Ez 28:17 Let’s paraphrase this. Satan became “vain in” his “imaginations” by reason of his brightness which he started to believed this “brightness” came from him as stated in Rom 1:21.

Rom 1:21 "Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became VAIN in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened"

We know that we do not control most biological processes that happens in our body(eg cell divisions, healing, digestion, growth, hormonal cycling(reproductive, day/night, etc..). Today, most people including most Christians say it is an inherent automatic with biofeedbacks mechanism that the body knows what to do. They do not glorify God as God and do not understand that nothing in this universe is on automatic and all is govern by God at all time. This denial of God’s personal involment in all things, including our thoughts and reasoning, is what darkens our minds, and consequentially we put our trust in the suppose “inherent” qualities that is within ourselves or created objects that is around us.

Rom 1:22,25 “ Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools… who changed the truth of God into a lie”

Eph 4:17 “This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk , in the vanity3153 of their mind,
18. Having the understanding DARKENED, being alienated from the life of God through the IGNORANCE that is IN them, because of the BLINDNESS of their heart :
Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

Our Inherent Qualities : Darkness and Impotence

Notice v.18 this vanity (1)darkens our understanding, (2)alienates us fron the life of God, (3)brings on an ignorance that is IN them. One thing we do inherently possess is ignorance. Without God continually enlightening us, we are inherently totally in darkness. That’s why the Bible says that God is light. This is true in regard to our intelligence and only God can bring us light/understanding in our minds.

Plus inherently we cannot do anything without God which includes, leading our thoughts and reasoning in the correct path. That’s why scriptures say it is God that worketh in us both to will and to do(see Does the Bull Turn Himself? #132622).

Faith -- Freewill -- Salvation

This freewill concept is a product of this vanity thinking and it’s very egocentric and is a fabrication of our imagination. The most destructive results of this vanity-- in believing in one’s own abilities-- brings on that we lose our faith in God. You cannot have faith in both. That’s why God will bring us back to the dust and humble us through tribulations so we can regain our senses as God did with King Nebuchednezzar in Dn 4.

In having faith in our suppose inherent thinking abilities leads on the assumption that we have a will, by which we then put above God’s Sovereignty by concluding God cannot do anything unless we agree(or allow him). It is a very arrogant behavior towards God besides being ridiculous. To come to agree, we need to know the truth before hand to properly evaluate and come to an educated analysis. However, to know the truth, we first need to have our minds open to be able to hear and only God can do that(Deut 29:4; Is 6:9,10; Jhn 8:43). Should we also give God that permission beforehand too? Let’s assume that a “natural man” can hear of his own will. Then how on earth are we going understand what we hear, if we cannot even understand the spiritual things?(1Cor 12:14; Rom 8:5-7; 2Pet 2:12; Jud 1:10; Dn 12:10) To begin with the “natural man” is not even drawn to God(Rom 3:11) and won’t even consider what God has to say because from the start we think it is totally foolishness(1Cor 1:18, 23; 2:14). So the premises that we first need to agree or “allow God” makes absolutely no sense as it is impossible for a “natural man” to come to God and be able to understand the things of God.

Man Agreement or a Respond

However, it is true that a “spiritual man” will agree/respond to all of God’s will, but it is not a by-product of our intelligence and our understanding by which requires our inputs before God does anything, but rather a phenomenon of an establish marriage like relationship based on trust. God has describe his relationship with his people as a marriage. So therefore the law of desires written in Gn 3:16 applies. The wife’s heart desires becomes her husband’s desires . This is how the law of trust and desires works by which God details it further in Hosea 2 on how he will bring us into this type of marriage relationship.

In addition, there is the fact that we are made in His image and our most fundamental being is made to respond to His voice and resonate His will. It is like a flute design to resonate beautiful sounds when the right pressure of air flow is blown into it as the melody is played by the musician at His will. God is the one that knows how to blow His Spirit into us by making those notes according to our design. Our intellect is just an additional layer of functionality he has created us with. Just like anything else in this universe, it needs to be blown into to produce the desired sound/thoughts. The flute cannot blow itself, nor our intellectual faculties is able to produce any soundness without God’s small still voice blown between our ears and His influencial hand in our life.

We are free beings in the sence that we are easily moved by His Spirit at God’s will and not pre-programmed. But never the reasoning faculties were design to govern ourselves, nor to give God permission to run the show. We are His creatures and His servants and always will be as so like anything else that is created to serve God. He did endow us with higher reasoning abilities than any other creation on earth so we can dominate the earth and to subdue all things therein, but in doing so by having God’s presence abiding in our soul and therefore being an extension of His will and mind and not our own.

Freewill and Trials to bring us to Maturity

God in His Wisdom allowed this “freewill” allusion by which he will use it to bring us to maturity(Rom 8:18-23; Job 34:11; Is 26:9; Hab 1:12; Hos 2). It is through trials(Deut 28 & 29; Lev 26) that He humbles us and will show us Himself as God the Almighty(Sovereign -- El Shaddai). As our understanding of His Sovereign works increases, the less free our “will” will seem to be.

List of Biblical reasons why it is important to increase in realizing that we have no “freewill”. I’m sure there’s more that you can see.

1- So we can “know that God is the Lord our God” (Over 200 Biblical texts—a good exercise to read them to get a sense of what God is telling us when He makes that statement.)

2- So we can know that God is Sovereign over all things including us (Gn 14:19,22; 1Ch 29:11-17; Is 55:11; Rom 9:15,16,18; Dt 29:4; Job 41:11-14; etc…)

3- So we come to realize that all power comes from God(Jn 3:27; Mat 28:18; Jh 17:2; 1Co 15:25,27; Jn 19:11; Col 1:18; 1Co 11:3; Heb 1:3) by which this implies that we have no inherent powers and there’s nothing in this universe that is set on automatic (MH 417.1) including our thoughts/understanding(see#18)

4- So we can come to realized that God “worketh all things after the counsel of his own will” (Ep 1:11)

5- So we can acknowledge that God created evil (Is 45:7) and gives the power for their actions, allows what evil to bring(Jdg 9:23; 1Sa 16:15,16, 23; Jer 35:17; 39:16; 40:2; Eze 6:11), and even takes full responsibility for all evils by saying he has done all these things.(Job 42:11; 1Kg 9:9; 17:20; 2Ch 34:28; Neh 13:18; Jer 32:23,42; 42:10; 44:2; Eze 14:22; Deu 32:39; Is 45:7; Ams 3:6; Is 19:22; etc…)

6- So we can learn that it is God that wounds us and then heals us.(Ps 68:20; Job 5:18; 1Sm 2:6; Has 6:1; Deu 32:39; Jer 30:17; etc..)

7- So we come to realized that “every good gift and perfect gift is from above” (Jm 1:17; Jn 3:27; 1Co 4:6-7; Heb 5:4) including any good thoughts, reasoning, and “decision”.

8- So we can know that God moves us from within by the means of His Spirit abiding(tabernacles) in us always(1Jo 3:24; 1Pet 1:23; 1Jo 3:9; 1Jo 2:27; etc..)

9- So we can know that it is God that gives “an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear” (Deut 29:4; Is 6:9,10; Jhn 8:43; Acts 28:26, 27; Ep 4:18; 2Thes 2:11,12)

10- So we can give God all the Glory and stop stealing it(Rom 1:21, 22, 25)

11- So that we don’t take any credit for our conversion or for following God and acknowledge that it is 100% the work of God (Jer 31:18,19; Jn 6:37; 44; Jn 12:32; Phil 2:13; Eph 1:11; etc… )

12- So we can know that we are saved through grace and not by our will(decisions) nor by our works(Eph 2:8; Rom 9:15-16; Rom 11:29, 31; etc…)

13- So we come to realized that “without me(Jesus) we can do nothing” (Jhn 15:5)

14- So we can come to realized that God does indeed “worketh in us Both to Will and to Do” . (Phil 2:13).

15- So that we know that being born again doesn’t come from the will of man (Jn 1:11-13; Jn 3:5,6,8; 1Jo 5:18; Jm 1:17; 1Pe 1:23)

16- So we can know that God is Agape, and it is Agape that moves all things (1Jn 4:7-8;16;19; 5:11-12, 18; 1Co 11:3; Col 1:18) and not by intellectual persuasion(Jer 10:23; Ps 37:23; Prov 20:24; Prov 16:1).

17- So we can know that our “natural” intelligence, which is only flesh(Prov 16:2; 21:2) cannot understand nor discern spiritual things (1Co 2:14; Rom 8:5-7; )

18- So we can know that any understanding comes from God (Prov 16:1;Job 33:14-17; Job 32:8; Job 28:12-14)

19- So we don’t elevate ourselves above another thinking we have some type of “inherit” virtue (e.g. “we seek truth”) that makes us deemed to be elected or to be saved (Rom 3:9-18, 8:20-23; 9:11-26, 11:1-36)

20- So we can realize that it is God that puts the desire in us to seek truth to begin with because God has made us vessels of honor for His purpose in this plan.(Rom 9:11,21,23)

21- So we can acknowledge that the wicked were made vessels of dishonor to also serve an important purpose in His plan(Rom 9:11,17,21-33; Rom 11; Lev 27:28,29;)

22- So we don’t judge others (Rom 14:10-13; Jm 4:11-12)

23- So we can stop blaming the Devil for all evils or others for they’re inability to hear, and accept our current situation as God’s will so to bring us into maturity of belief.

24- So we don’t think we’re better than another(Rom 3:9-18;) and can esteem others better than ourselves. (Phil 2:3)

25- So we can give “supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men; for Kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peacefable life in all godliness and honesty” (1Tim 2:1-3)

26- So we can recognize that all authorities and powers are ordained by God and we can better submit to them. (Rom 13:1-2; Titus 3:1; 1Pe 2:13-16)

27- So we can honor all men (1Pet 2:17; Rom 12:10; 1Pet 5:5)

28- So we can walk humbly(1Pet 5:5; Mic 6:8) like Abraham did and truly believe that we are but dust and ashes(Gen 18:27) or a lump of clay(Rom 9:21) between God’s hand that is totally dependent on His will.

29- So we can forgive others that do us wrong(Mat 6:12; Luk 11:4) as Christ did to those who crucified him(Lk 23:34; Jer 31:34; Ps 103:14)

30- So we can “know that all things worketh for good” (Rom 8:28)

31- So we can learn to trust God and not ourselves(Rom 11:33-36; Is 41:21-29; etc..)

32- So we can realize that God created man with a blank mind that required time to have His Laws written in our mind. In the process, the creatures(the Angels and Man) were subjected by the vanity of our mind(Rom 8:20) unwillingly.

33- So we can realize this long inculcating, correcting, and chastizing(judgment) process that God has ordained from the beginning(Hab 1:12) comes from God so we can be more accepting of the tribulations that arises permitting us to grow so to have His laws written in our hearts(mind) (Jer 31:33; Eze 11:19-20; 36:26,27; Zep 3:9; 2Cor 3:3; Heb 8:10 ) forever.

34- So we realize that it is through the laws of afflictions that come as a result of God’s judgments(Lev 26; Deut 28 &29) that we actually learn righteousness by which we do not learn it through grace. (Is 26:9-10). When God grants grace and does not afflict those who have sinned they continue in their sin, even in the very presence of God.

35- So we can be amazed that God’s judgments and His ways past finding out! (Rom 11:33) who worked on all, who know how to bring people to Jesus(John 6:37; 6:65) by the means of “dragging”(helkuo, John 6:44) in His time and His ways.

36- So we can be releaved that our nor others salvation doesn’t depend on our will but on whom God shows mercy. Rom 9:15

37- So we can be assure that God know how to correct His children’s (Pro 3:12; Ps 94:10; Hab 1:12; Mic 4:3) and His word will be fulfilled (Is 55:11) “who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth”. (1Tim 2:4)

38- So we can come to understand the importance in learning and teaching God’s Laws given to Moses which is the expression of His mind and heart. So we can have them written in our heart and in the heart of others, so we can come to know and recognize God’s small still voice and can differentiate it from the voice of our reasoning.

39- So that we can understand that Trust(Belief/faith) in God, and distrust in self is what predispose us to hear God’s small still voice by which worketh to will and to do in us the great wonders of God(Heb 11).

40- So our outlook of this world, sin, our being, how God works, and His plan of salvation can take a drastic turn and be able to speak with a similar spirit as “Jesus answered, “Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.” John 9:3

I’ve read your post and the prior references you cited again, but, sincerely Elle, your view continues to be completely Theologically|Biblically|Spiritually|Exegetically incongruous and self-contradictory to me. I could pick it apart point by point, and may in the future, however I currently do not have the resource of time to do this. Your attempt to make “force” be merely “influence” is an example of a futile attempt to justify your view. E.g., a policeman does not have to use deadly force with every person he pulls over. Just flicking on their lights and then making a few commands usually accomplishes precisely what he wants to do in compliance with the Law. In a similar way God using “influence” vs. “force” would just be Him using a lessor decree of reasonable force. I say “would be” because I do not see that you’ve shown that your view that God uses any type of constraining force to make people fall in line with His will is in any way Biblical.

The “elephant in the room” element in your view is how come millions of people, even those who God had supposedly ‘allotted much time to become mature through his corrective means, dies as complete heathens. What happened here, God misjudged the time needed, or the “level of force’ to use??? Clearly the only issue here is that these people freely decided to spurn these corrections and maintain their rebellious state.

God does humble the proud, however he does not do so, so that they will then believe in him. They have the free choice to either accept this as a correction from God or continue living a life without acknowledging God. However, and only when GC significant, God will not let them again have the former power and influence that had priorly achieved.

So I still do not see that your view has Biblical support. And the many texts that you are citing are factually proof texts. Not in that they do not address the issue in some part, as most proof text do, but because they do not imply the conclusion that you want them to have. Indeed most of the texts you cite where God is shown to be in control of a person’s life are in regards to those who have chosen to be ruled by God and not to everyone in general. The “Farmer’s Ox” is an example of this as this praying person had asked God to once again guide his life, just like the farmer guides his bulls so that they could do a productive work (Jer 31:18b).

The main issue here is not that man’s believe of freewill is causing all this wrong in the world, because a belief in something that is false does not make it so, but that they do have the freewill to obey or rebel against the will of God, however utterly futile this GC will prove this to be.

My beliefs in God’s sovereignty is that He has the power to overrule anything, and has, and will continue to do so, whenever something or some action by man causes the playing field in this GC to become unfair towards those who have chosen to do God’s will. And interestingly enough, when the wayward actions of His own professed people come to endanger His potential great work, as Ancient Israel repeatedly did when they acted more corruptly than the surrounding pagan nations around them.

If you can logically and Biblically explain why billions of people have died unsaved under this supposed “maturing plan of God” then you’ll begin to defend your view as Theologically viable. Hopefully your view is not that they will all be saved any way. Clearly to me, what happened here is that they died as a result of their persisted free choices. And by the way, God disciplined Nebuchanezzar, as he would his own people, because he was acting against great knowledge of God as seen in Dan 2 & 3. That however does not mean that God will do so with every heathen person. Most of these will suffer the natural results of their life which in most cases will be natural death and then the Second Death. It is only when their actions becomes high handed and threatening that God steps in to “level things”. Case in point, Nebuchanezzar who had previously publicly proclaimed throughout his kingdom that there was not greater God than the God of the Israelites (Dan 2:47ff; 3:28-30; 4:1-3) until he let his pride try to regain that acknowledgement and belief (Dan 4:25b, 26) and in doing so was knowingly shaming the name of God amongst those heathens. Whereas before those earlier revelations, he would have done so out of pure ignorance, as literally tens of thousands of other earthly rulers have done so, simply in worshipping other Gods or even themselves, he was now doing it against clear evidence to the contrary. So I here, as with many other examples that you have advanced, see that you are making an over generalization from specific examples in the Bible and indeed when all the exegetical points in a passage are also taken into consideration, they do not lead to the over applications that you are making.

So in summary, my view is that we all have free will and through this we can frustrate and delay God’s will since He needs people to have faith in him so that he can act in their favor to help them win this GC, even if, as it was the case with E.g., Moses, Ezekiel and Jesus, if He can genuinely find one man who will allow themselves to be an intercessor and/or bear the sins of others so that this favoring work can proceed. For him to do this against people’s will and/or without a genuine intercessor/sin-bearer would give the Devil the same opportunity to force people to do evil, and great overwhelming evil at that. And then this GC will become a full blown, active, physical angelic conflict, and since God and the Heavenly host would easily win this fight, as they had in Heaven at the beginning of this GC, then this is actually being done at Satan’s benefit. So, as with all other aspects of this GC, God’s methods always prove to be the fairest and the best for all parties implicated/involved, i.e., the Godhead, Angels, Unfallen Beings, Fallen Man Satan and Fallen Angels.

If I'm understanding correctly you to say we have no free will, it does sound from what you say that Lucifer had free will.

Hi Kland, I appreciate your interest in this topic. I think you read too quickly or not entirely what I posted for you are saying something I've never said. Read the section under the title How Lucifer fell & Vanity of the Mind in post #132871. Hope that will clarify things.

Yes, that was from what I concluded my comment. I realize you didn't intend to say such, but that's what it came across and comes across to me. Unless you are saying God caused Lucifer to have pride? Which I don't think you are saying either.

Maybe, give an example of free will.

Sorry Kland, I’m the one who didn’t read your post properly. I now see your point and I’m glad you’ve expressed it. That might help to make a clear distinction if I can find the proper words.

Just because we have the ability to think and reason, doesn’t equate we have freewill, nor does it mean we are capable or design to govern ourself. If we acknowledge that all things come from God including our thoughts and our will; then God is indeed Sovereign over all including over our own minds, then the reality is there is no freewill.

However, if you believe that “you” are the one that govern your own mind and thoughts and can come to reason and some understanding on your own; then you believe that you have inherent abilities that is independent from God and can come to your own decisions by your own abilities of your own mind. Therefore God is not the Sovereign God over your mind and has design man to govern his own thoughts and make his own choices.

Sadly, most Christian do believe that they can govern their own mind(heart), because God did subject us to our corrupt mind(heart)(Rom 1:24, 26, 28; 2Ch 30:7; Ps 81:12; Act7:42) at the fall. However, it still doesn’t prove that we can govern our own mind, nor that we have a freewill just because God, in His wisdom, let us learn reality through this subjection of our vanity (Rom 8:20) so we can come to learn righteousness(Is 29:6; Hab 1:12) through the judgments of God.

Ok, I re-read that section and I just can't see where it might come across as Lucifer has some freewill. Could you give me exactly the sentence(s) where it gave you that impression. I do acknowledge that I'm not skilled in writing and can see that it is possible. So I would appreciate you could show me where.



OK. Let’s do define what is freewill.


Maybe we can take as an example our freewill in regards to our salvation. Most Christian believes that we are the one that choose to follow Jesus and come to Jesus by our own freewill. However, is this biblically correct? It doesn’t matter what we think, what’s important is what is the truth in all of this.


Here’s are some quotes I got from another SDA forum in a freewill discussion that I partook. These are words from SDAs defining their perception of their freewill in regards to salvation :

1. God has given the "choice" to serve him to every being in His vast universe. This was what Adam and Eve did in the Garden of Eden. Eve "chose" to listen to and then believe satan over God. Then Adam "chose" to suffer the fate of doing so with Eve.


2. "Unfortunately, most individuals choose to follow their carnal nature, instead of denying themselves for the greater good of others.


3. "They(the disciples) already had a love for the truth, and a hatred for the injustice of the superstitions, and traditions and the authority of men."


4. Meaning they either choose God or their own sinful ways


5. I personally believe that everyone gets on the right path, at some point. But most of them don't stay on for very long. That is not God's choice. It's their choice.


6. It's a whole lifetime of choices, that makes us who we are. The more you choose to sew to the spirit, the stronger your faith will be to endure temptation.


7. The iniquity came from Lucifer. It started with him, because of his decisions, not Gods:


8. If we don't make the choice, and are not willing to do the works, then we will be lost.


9. Every action has too parts. Choice and action.


10. The bible is very clear that there is NO EXCUSE for sin and that God will in nowise clear the guilty.


11. That question is: "Which authority will we obey?" That is the bottom line. This is the choice free moral agents are faced with. The smart choice is to obey the source of all wisdom


12. The individual's final choice of whether they will obey God or not, lies with the individual and the individual alone."


13. You choose now who you will serve God or satan? Its still your choice my friends."


14. God created we human beings with a free will, He does not force any to accept the gift of salvation. ….They are lost because they chose not to be saved.


15. The Bible says that Christ, if He is lifted up will "draw" all men to Himself. All will be drawn, but all will not be saved because many "despise" the gift freely given.


16. We "accept" the free gift and become "reconciled" to Him. He always initiates salvation.


17. So we choose to accept or reject God's grace.


18. It's a very sobering time, we live in. We have to make the right choices.


19. He said before the foundations of the world were laid he knew his elect. That does not mean that he hand picked them out of a list of people. It simply means that he knew who would choose to serve him. Just because he knows who will obey does not mean that he in anyway affects who will choose him. Eventhough he knows that people will not obey he still allows them to make that choice.


20. People set their own destinies, by the choices they make, and the paths they choose to follow.


21. God has granted each one of us a free will and we therefore choose whether we accept Christ, whether we stay with Christ and whether we die in Christ - whether we listen to the pleadings of the Holy Spirit. So, God's intention is that all should be saved - all humans are predestined to salvation in that sense - it is just down to us to make the decisions.


22. He chose us, all of us, to be saved - if we desire it.

Elle, it seems to me that without free will, we cannot love. How would we be able to love without free will?

Hi Tom, I appreciate you bring your perspective to this important question of freewill.

First, your question assumes we have some inherent ability to love. Do you believe that man has an inherent ability to Love? Could you quote me from the Bible, how it defines love and what is man's true ability to produce this?

Elle, you showed what others thought was free will. Is that what you believe such as, choosing to serve God or choosing their own sinful ways?

??????


Kland you ask me for an example of freewill. I gaved you what people like yourself believe. I gaved you 22 example statement of freewill. I never said that I believe these are true. ???


I’m not following you? I hope we’re not going to go through what we went through the last time we had a discussion together!?! If you have something to say, please just be straight forward and as clear as possible.


Here is the quotes of our conversation.



Now are any of my examples statement any good? Can you define what you believe freewill is for us?

Also could you please reply to my question bolded and underline below:

If you're talking about agape, I don't believe man has an inherent ability to do that, but that agape comes from God as a gift. However, ordinary love, like a man loves a woman (or vice versa), or loving one's parents or one's children, I think it's obvious we have the ability to do that. I don't think we need to prove that from Scripture. Or do you disagree?

Elle, I was a little confused by your response as well. I think you misunderstood his question, which I'm not blaming you for; it's very easy to happen. What kland was asking was for you to define what you think free will is, but rather than a technical definition, he wanted you to give an example. He wanted to know what *you* think free will is, and to give an example. Obviously you didn't understand he was asking for your own opinion on this, so that's where the misunderstanding took place.

Kland can correct me if I got this wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's what was happening here.

Tom, that is correct. I am familiar with what I believe free will is, and what some others believe free will is, but do not know what Elle's definition of free will is. That's why I asked her to give an example. Intending for her to give an example which demonstrates what she thinks free will is.



Elle, let me be more straight forward and clear, if I can.

I would like to know what free will means to you. If we have different definitions of what free will is, it would be non-conducive for a coherent conversation. Could you give an example of what free will means to you. Include only what you believe is true and leave out what you don't believe.

I’m glad you view that Agape is a gift. The Bible says God is Agape(1Jo 4:8,16). So Love(Agape) is really a person. It is not a feeling like this world has defined it by which everyone is accustomed to relate to it. Just because they have some biological processes that make their brain feel “love”, they easily assume it is something they possess and can produce at will. That is “if” the other party is loveable. Because of course they can “love” and many view themselves as a very “loving” person and the reason they don’t “love” at times, well it’s because of the other persons or some incidence. How silly we often are!

I believe there’s only one love and is Agape. All the other “love” we might feel or experience that the Greek language defined these in 3 different words, are only different expression of love that comes out of a man depending to the object(wife, brother, or children). However, all these different expressions all originated from God’s Spirit dwelling in you. So if a man “loves” his wife, the “love” expressed to his wife is an extension of God(Agape) dwelling in you. The same phenomena when that man “loves” his children and this expressed is again an extension of God(Agape) dwelling in you.


There are much “love” that is expressed today that was not originated from God, and therefore is not genuine. So just because you are feeling some feelings of “Love” for your wife or your children, it doesn’t mean you manufactured all this “love” all by yourself. Nor does it mean that the feeling your mind is processing as “love” for a woman is actually real Love. It could be just a pure hormonal process with a touch of “imagination”. How many in this world experienced “love” for an individual by which within a few years or even months down the road, this “love” is totally vanish. I’m sure I don’t need to expand on that well known phenomenon.

It is easy to “love” when all goes well and your wife and your children benefit your own personal interest and pride. However, when things goes not well by which the list of possibilities is quite long; then you can end up losing all these nice little feelings of “love” you once experienced. Then you find yourself wanting to dispose of your wife if you could. History has shown twice that a very moral society like the Israelites has lost their “natural love” to the extent of eating their own children when starving. History shows clearly the heart of man’s natural ability to love another. Current marriage statistics including the SDAs shows the reality of our ability to love our spouse. Abortion rates and public school rates shows our own ability to love our children.



With what is all around us and what history shows us; yes, I definitely do disagree with you Tom. And yes, it’s always good to check in scriptures despite if we would of both agreed.

I am currently studying this question(freewill offerings) in scriptures you brought up(well indirectly). I think it is a very good question Tom and I appreciate it. If you want to join me in opening your heart to know what the Lord think of all of this, and the reality of our ability to love according to Scriptures; please do let me know your findings. I am very interested in it.

I'll just comment on this part for now.



You're disagreeing that it's obvious that human beings have the ability to love? Really?

It seems to me that all that is around us, and what history shows, supports the idea that it's obvious that human beings have the ability to love.

I'll comment more later.

The Bible says that “God is....” many different things/actions/characteristics/feelings. That does not make them “persons”.

Love is just as much/equal a ‘Spiritual “gift” from God’ as: “joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control (Gal 5:22, 23). And these only become a completed gift when the potential receiver chooses to be swayed by this blowing Divine influence of God and “exercise” these Divine, Spiritual options (vs. their exact opposites) in a pertinent situation. Indeed I don’t see “love” as a feeling or Person, but a decision.

Regarding love, my thinking is that God created beings to love and to be loved, which required free will. Free will opens the possibility of love being rejected. Another way of stating this is that love entails risk, which is an unfortunate experience that most of us go through at one time or another.

In our world, God's love was rejected, which led to the mess that we have. All the evil there is in the world is the result of man's choosing his own way over God's way, which he is able to do, because of free will.

The Great Controversy is an examination of God's part in what has happened, which will show that God has been consistently acting in harmony with the principles of agape, principles embodied by Jesus Christ.

This is a short synopsis of my thinking.

Even the ultimate “loving” act of Christ (cf. e.g., John 3:16; 15:13), still required a “decision”, and a most resolute, counterintuitive one at that (Luke 12:49, 50; cf. Matt 26:36-46|DA 689.2-693.1).

Christ indeed ‘‘decided to’ (DA 693.1) “accepts His baptism of blood” (DA 690.3)’.

Elle,

I understand what Tom's idea of free will means because it seems to agree with mine. However, I would like to know what free will means to you. Would you be able to either define it or give an example of what free will means to you?

Sorry for not replying yet Kland. I'm just a little overwhelmed with many priorities. Will try to get to you and the others this Sabbath.

Tom I appreciate much that you laid down as clearly as you could a short synopsis of your thinking. Thx, it helps a lot. I hope you don’t mind me going through it for the purpose of reflecting/studying and checking its validity according to Scriptures.

Does a Heap of Dust have the inherent ability to Love?

I agree that we are created to be loved, but I disagree that we have inherent ability to love. Do you agree with me that we are but dust? For sure God highly organized the dust(atoms) to a very sophisticated being, but reality is we are still just a heap of dust. Would you say that a heap of dust can love? I’m sure you wouldn’t say so. So what makes you say that organized dust can more so?

Freewill allows Love to be Rejected?

This Freewill logic implies that God’s Words through the Spirit of Christ has no power on man and man abilities to reject His Words when heard in our minds is greater than the power of His Words itself. This is a total contradiction of what we say in regards to His creative power. We say that God’s Word is bidding and whatever He speaks it happens.

By having 90% of mankind burning in the Hell fire is basically also saying that God’s Love is impotent and has no influence and is not stronger than “evil”. Hasn’t God created us in His image? Shouldn’t we be capable to recognize***(see note below) and respond to His Love? What does this has to say about God’s workmanship? Quite a failure I would say and there’s not much glory at having 10% saved or less at the end of the GC.

***Note: When I say we should be capable to recognize God’s voice, I mean here the basic elements, not the carnal mind. The carnal mind/logic/reasoning think God is foolish, but our basic cells and even the genes do recognize and respond to God’s voice/Love. The normal cells are selfless and do demonstrate God’s character in all their activities and working together selflessly for other cells and for the sake of the body. They are truly in harmony between them and with God. It is the mind(heart) of man that is corrupt -- not in harmony with their body and with God and is demonstrating selfishness characteristics.

Freewill Logic and Risky Love

Love entails “risks”? So, are you implying that God didn’t know that so many were going “to decide to reject His Love” and it was a risk He took when He created them?

But if you do believe that God knows the end from the beginning as the Bible indicates, then God surely did put His creatures in a high risky unfortunate experience. It makes me think of something like Russian roulette by giving them a gun(freewill) however, in this scenario you tell them which chamber have a bullet inside and they chose it and deliberately reject God’s love = suicide. Would you give birth to children knowing that 9 out of 10 are going to shoot themselves and suffer greatly before doing so? If God knew that 9 out of 10 are going to die terrible death and have a hard life, then it does portray God very irresponsible and cruel.

Freewill Logic attempt to Make Sense with Mass Annihilation

I understand that this logic attempts to make some sense out of this Hell doctrine and its mass annihilation that has been passed down to us and our forefather for the past 1700+ years. By putting the blame on the creatures, it claims to leave God’s hands clean so He can remain “righteous” in all of this. But sadly this logic still leaves God’s hand quite dirty for :

(1) When God created beings with free will, did He not know that they would start doing evil things?
(2) Is a Creator not responsible for that which He creates?
(3) Why would a good and all-knowing God create either spiritual or physical beings with a poor ability to respond to Him and to His Love?

Freewill Logic, Annihilation, and Justice

Also this logic does not make God righteous for a real Righteous God will bring True JUSTICE. True Divine Justice has two purposes in the Laws of Moses (1) Restitution to the victim (2) Restoration of the offender. Divine Justice is not accomplished until these two purposes are achieved. Annihilation of any creature is a punishment and does not bring any Divine Justice. Annihilation doesn’t bring restitution to the victim but only revenge. Plus definitely there’s no restoration of the offenders through annihilation. It only eliminates those that disagree like a dictatorship (or any man who wants control).

Freewill Logic at the Expense of God’s Sovereignty

Worst is this Freewill logic is at the expense of God’s sovereignty.
(1)It makes God incapable of creating any being without making them with a free will (for what purposes? so to govern themselves? So we can be little gods? Remember, there’s only One God).
(2) It makes God an innocent Bystander in history.
(3)It makes God a helpless impotent god in the sky who has all the power to stop evil, but is too much of a gentleman to do much about it.
(4)It makes God an irresponsible weak ruler.


Freewill Logic vs. Quality End product vs. His Sovereignty and Wisdom and Glory

Also this Freewill logic suggest that it is the only way God could end up with a quality product in the end of time, and that God knew ahead of time that only a tiny percentage of men would "pass the test" and be saved. Of course God did not like this result—that He grieves over it—and yet this All-Wise God could find no other way to achieve His goal of bringing forth children.

The bottom line is that God's sovereignty and wisdom are greatly diminished by this logic. To start it suggest that beings do things according to their own will, independent of God and that God is largely pushed around by His own universe. Also, it suggests that God wasn’t wise enough to make a plan that would save everyone and that He was just incapable.

Plus where is God’s glory in having 1/3 of the angels and 90% of man burning in hell? Doesn’t it paint God as a failure in His creation plan and in His Saving powers? Wouldn’t you say by this high failure end result that God has greatly missed the mark? Not much “glory” in that.

What led to this Mess : The Rejection of God’s Love or a Puffed up Head?


Let’s read what the Bible actually says about the Fall of Lucifer and man more carefully. It was not a question of rejecting God’s love that led to this mess.



God and Evil
Hmmm…. all the evil there is in the world is because God created evil! I’m starting to see that “evil” is another of these words in our vocabulary that needs redefining according to God’s perspective and not according to man’s limited view.

Here is some of the things the Bible tells us about evil :

1. That God created evil (Is 45:7)
2. That God gives the power to evil creatures for their actions (Dn 8:24; Rev 17:17; Jer 27:6; etc…)
3. That God calls servants the evil creatures(e.g. Satan(Job 41:4), King of Babylon(Jer 25:9; 27:6; 43:10)) to execute His Judgments(Jer 25:9; Job 41:4;etc… )
4. That God allows what evil to bring(Job 41:4; Jdg 9:23; 1Sa 16:15,16, 23; Jer 35:17; 39:16; 40:2; Eze 6:11; etc…),
5. That God even takes credit of all evils by saying that he has done all these evil things.(Job 42:11; 1Kg 9:9; 17:20; 2Ch 34:28; Neh 13:18; Jer 32:23,42; 42:10; 44:2; Eze 14:22; Deu 32:39; Is 45:7; Ams 3:6; Is 19:22; etc…)

Do we really have the Ability to choose God’s way?

Concerning man’s choosing his own way versus God’s that you assume brought all this “evil” on us, the Bible tells us the following :

1. Fallen creatures there is none that seeketh after God (Rom 3:11), does not understand God(Rom 8:5-7;1Cor 2:14; 2Pet 2:12; Jud 1:10; Dn 12:10), and think God is foolish(1Cor 2:14; 1:18, 23). So therefore in their “natural” fallen state, it is impossible for man to choose God.

2. God hardened whoever’s heart He desires : Rom 9:18 “Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.”

(a) Pharaoh: 7x (Ex 7:13; 9:12; 10:1, 20, 27; 11:10; 14:8) the Bible says that God hardens Pharaoh heart, versus 3x(Ex 8:15, 32; 9:34) Pharaoh hardens himself.

(b) King Heshbon : God hardened King Heshbon heart for the purpose “to put the dread of thee(the Israelites) and the fear of thee upon the nations.” Deut 2:25 God sent before hand a message of peace and asking permission to go through their land(v.26-29), then God heardens the Kings heart (v.30) for the respond He wants, so He can accomplish His purpose stated in v.25. Det 2:30 “But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.”

(c) The Israelites : Jeremiah acknowledge that it was God that caused the people to err and had hardened their heart : Is 63:17 “ O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

3. God keeps peoples heart/eyes/ears closed at His will and will only open them when they are ready to hear (Deut 29:4; Is 6:9,10; Jhn 8:43; Acts 28:26, 27; Ep 4:18; 2Thes 2:11,12; Rom 11:7-12; 25-33; etc…) and for his own purpose in working His plan of Salvation.

4. Scriptures says plainly that it is God that “worketh all things after the counsel of His own will“ Eph 1:11. It doesn’t say that things are worked through our own will like you suggest with the freewill logic. Plus it says very specifically that “it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure” (Phil 2:13). Plus see these other texts which I will quote for convenience sake.

The Purpose of the Great Controversy Revised


Tom, I used to share the same view as you concerning the GC. But now, I don’t see the GC as “an examination of God’s part” for the sake to see if God is consistent. For sure God’s works and the way he’s handling this GC is highly examined by all his creatures. Plus God is consistent for He is Agape and His Laws are His character. However, I now view that the GC is primarily for our sake for the following purposes :

1. To write all His Laws into our heart (Jer 31). At creation and largely at birth our heart was/is initially blank, but now the work is even harder because our heart has become corrupt. However, it is not impossible for God--for with God “all is possible”. Right?

2. God in His Wisdom allowed this “freewill” allusion by which he will use it to bring us to maturity(Rom 8:18-23; Job 34:11; Is 26:9; Hab 1:12; Hos 2).

3. To humble His puffed up amazingly perfectly formed creatures. God will bring us back to our proper place while teaching us the truth on how things really works(Hos 2:8-13; Ep 1:11; Phil 2:13; Jer 31:18, 19 ) and come to know to what extend that God is Sovereign by which He “worketh all things after the counsel of his own will” Ep1:11. Only then we will regain our reason just like He did with King Nebuchednazzar. We are all guilty of the same sin of King Nebuchednazzar’s in taking God’s glory(Dn 4:30). Jesus said “whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased” Mat 23:12 There’s many other texts stating this work of God as in Is 2:12 “For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low.”

4. It is through trials(Deut 28 & 29; Lev 26) that He humbles us back to the “dust”. In Biblical terms this humbling back to dust is termed with the word “destroy” (‘abad h6… which also means “to go astray”. This double/single meaning destroy/lost is exactly the same as the greek word appolumi g622). Only when we are destroyed (realize that we are but “dust”) that we can be found and come to see God as He truly is -- the Almighty Sovereign El Shaddai -- and truly repent “in the dust and ashes”.

5. To build in us the Trust(Belief/faith) in Him, and to destroy the trust in self. Only when Christ is lifted up(and our self abased) that we will be able to hear. Trust in Him is what predispose us to hear God’s small still voice and to differentiate it from the voice of our own reasoning. It is always through faith/Trust that any of God’s great wonders and works has ever been accomplished(Heb 11).

6. To restore all creation back to their original glorified heritage according to His grand Law of Jubilee.

7. To bring All things in subjection under Christ so God can be All in All.

PS. Sorry Kland and NJK, I took too much time replying to Tom. I’ll get back to you next week.

I'll patiently wait for you Elle. But please, please make it much, much more concise than what you did answering Tom. I couldn't follow that. I would be satisfied with a concise and to the point 3-4 line paragraph defining what "free will" means to you.

OK. I'll just cut and copy what I already said instead of saying in a new way the same thing.

"Nothing in this universe is on automatic and all is govern by God at all time. This denial of God’s personal involment in all things, including our thoughts and reasoning, is what darkens our minds, and consequentially we put our trust in the suppose “inherent” qualities that is within ourselves or created objects that is around us", instead of putting our trust in God. (see Ep 1:11, etc...)

I would expand this quote to say that God's involvement includes to work in us both to will and to do according to His good pleasure. PHil 2:13. (see also The Turning of the Farmer’s Ox post #132383 , Does the Bull Turn Himself? post #132622, and The Conversion is like a Seed Sprouting post #132516.

Remember the context here is love of man for woman, or love of children. You don't believe people have this ability to love?



No. This might be the crux of our disagreement. This would make our behavior just complex chemical reactions.



No, we're more than simply a heap of dust. We are sentient beings, with the ability to make decisions that originate from ourselves, decisions contrary to God's will.



One could argue the other way. It's obvious that human beings can and do love each other. Therefore human beings cannot merely be organized dust, since organized dust cannot love.



Keep in mind the context is love of children, and man to woman (and vice versa). I don't see that these things happen because of God's word bidding it to happen. Not all humans choose to love. Isaiah speaks to this, in the comparison of God's love as greater than a mother's love.



The context was loving children and man/woman. I don't see how this applies.



Same comment.



I think God took a risk in creating us, yes.



Love entails risk.



I disagree. According to the SOP, God created millions of worlds. Even with our world in rebellion, this was the only one, so considering the universe as a whole, the risk is very small. Adam and Eve could have chosen to obey, which would have left only the angels. And Lucifer, it's written, almost chose to repent. Then there would have been none.

So there's no cruelty involved here. It's only when we postulate that God was certain that Lucifer would sin (or Adam/Eve) that cruelty comes into play.



Yes, that's the essence of the Great Controversy, that God is innocent.



Correct. God did not expect that free will be used to reject Him.



T:If you choose to have a child, and it becomes evil (but not due to how you raised it), are you responsible for the evil that it does?



I think your concept of "all-knowing" is more Greek than what's in Scripture.



I think we got off the question in relation to free will involving the ability to love one's children or spouse.



I don't know what your point is here. What I said is that free will is necessary in order to love. God created beings to love and be loved is the reason I gave.



This is half right. God is innocent, but He's not merely a Bystander. Jesus Christ makes that evident.

[qutoe](3)It makes God a helpless impotent god in the sky who has all the power to stop evil, but is too much of a gentleman to do much about it.[/quote]

God has worked, and is working, through Jesus Christ to stop evil, and evil will be defeated. Where are you seeing impotence here?



I'm not following your logic here. If you have children, and raise them well, and they choose not to do your will, why would it follow that you are an irresponsible, weak ruler?



This is looking at things myopically, as if only our world was involved. But there were millions of worlds. Well over 99.99% of all sentient beings will be saved, not the tiny percentage you are asserting.



Well, your premise is off, to start with, since very few choose to rebel, considering the universe as a whole. It could well have been none, and almost was, as God did everything He could in regards to Lucifer, and Lucifer almost repented.



It's just one little spot, so I think you're overstating the case here. It's certainly better than the alternative of God's being responsible for evil.



Love doesn't have to do with the wisdom of the lover only, but with the one being loved. If the one being loved chooses not to love back, this does not necessarily speak poorly of the lover.



If only our world were involved, and angels, that might be arguable. But that's not the case. Of the millions of worlds, only one has lost people in it, and the saved of even that one will include a numberless multitude.

What speaks to God's glory is that while He had millions of worlds of faith beings who loved Him, He loved this one insignificant world too much to let it go, and made the ultimate sacrifice to save whosoever would respond.



Not sure what you're asking here. Certainly the rejection of God's love was involved.



Here's another statement on the subject:



This looks to be echoing what I said, doesn't it? Notice the important of love, and the linking of love to free will. And also that Lucifer choose to misuse this freedom.



No, none of the evil there is in the world is because God created evil. God did not create evil. I don't understand how you could so misunderstood what I wrote. Here's what I wrote:



This is very similar to what Ellen White wrote, that I just quoted.

God did not create evil, but created sentient beings with "freedom of will," one of whom chose to misuse that freedom.



"Evil" is that which is contrary to God's will, which is embodied by the 10 commandments, which articulate the principles of agape.



In the sense of permitted. God is often represented as doing that which He permits.



In the sense of giving them life, you mean?



This is the same principle of God's being represented as doing that which He permits.



Of course. Many texts bring this out. In Jeremiah 18, for example, God tells us He will change His actions depending upon what we choose to do. Exodus as well, quite a few times, in the early 30's.



This is true. Left solely to one's own devices, fallen man would not choose God.



These are typical Calvinistic arguments. There are typical Arminian counter arguments that could be adduced.



Doesn't saying God will only open the ears of others when they are ready to hear mean that God gives understanding to people when they want to know the truth?



This doesn't make sense. That we have free will wouldn't imply that God works all things according to our will. Why would that make sense?

For example, if you have a friend, and that friend has free will, would it follow that you work out all things according to your friend's will?



This doesn't say against our will. God works to will and to do of His good pleasure if we our willing. He doesn't overpower us to do so.



I used to be a Calvinist, so I'm familiar with all these texts and arguments. There are counterarguments to these as well.




So you were Arminianist, and became Calvinistic, whereas I went the other direction. That's interesting. But I guess you weren't familiar with the Arminian counterarguments(?) (Since you don't mention them).



It's not possible for God to act contrary to His own character.



Do you mean "illusion"? What about evil? If God is doing everything independent of anyone else's will, why do it in such a stupid way?



If His creatures are simply the way God made them, why did He make them this way? Why not make them not puffed up to start with?



We should already have been in our proper place, if we're simply doing God's will.



This isn't necessary for the millions of other worlds. Why should we alone have to suffer so?



If we view this destruction as being due to God alone, and not due to any choice on our part, it could lead to our viewing God as being responsible for our suffering, and for the evil in the world in general, which might not speak well of God.



I agree with this, but view this as happening when our sinfulness is contrasted to God's goodness. If God is not really good, I don't see how this could happen, and I don't see how God could be good if He does evil.



To summarize a few points:

1.We look to disagree in regards to the future. I think you see it according to the traditional view, where the future is fixed, and God looks forward, like in a crystal ball, to see what will happen. I think the future is more like a web, which is rich in possibilities, and when God looks into the future, He sees all of these possibilities; not just one strand of the web, but the whole web.

2.I think we both see a logical contradiction in an all-knowing, all-powerful, good God and the traditional ideas in regards to foreknowledge, the existence of evil, and the future judgment. We resolve the contradictions we see differently, however, with you going the Calvinistic/Universalist direction, and me in the Arminian/Open Theism direction.

3.In discussing Calvinistic vs. Arminian ideas, I think it would be good to present both sides. This debate is well known, having gone on for several centuries.

4.I had one more point, but I forgot it. If it comes back to me, and I think it's worthwhile, I'll add it.

A couple of quick questions.

A.Do you see that the existence of evil is due to God's will?
B.Do you view God as responsible for the evil that is in the world?

Elle, kland is asking you to explain what "free will" means to you, in your own words. For example, I would answer that question like this: "Free will is the ability to effect an option given two or more viable options to choose from" ("effect" meaning "to bring about"). For example, if I choose "A" then "A" will occur instead of "B," and vice versa.

So what does "free will" mean to you?

Traditionally there are two ways of answering this question in theological discussions. I'll comment further later.