You are wrong, Tom, dead wrong. There is more I disagree with than what you say. I do not believe God finds pleasure in punishing people. Circumstances forces Him to do it, but He is not willing that any should perish. Yes, He is pleased law and justice are served and satisfied, but not pleased sinners neglect heaven-sent opportunities for learning the way of peace and righteousness, not pleased they reject Jesus.

Even God refers to these kinds of things as His "strange act". I do not pretend to understand everything there is to know about why God punishes and destroys impenitent sinners. That He does, is clear in the Bible.

Isaiah
28:21 For the LORD shall rise up as [in] mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as [in] the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.

GC 627
God's judgments will be visited upon those who are seeking to oppress and destroy His people. His long forbearance with the wicked emboldens men in transgression, but their punishment is nonetheless certain and terrible because it is long delayed. "The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act." Isaiah 28:21. To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked." Ezekiel 33:11. The Lord is "merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, . . . forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin." Yet He will "by no means clear the guilty." The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked." Exodus 34:6, 7; Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. The severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor may be judged by the Lord's reluctance to execute justice. The nation with which He bears long, and which He will not smite until it has filled up the measure of its iniquity in God's account, will finally drink the cup of wrath unmixed with mercy. {GC 627.2}

PP 628
The forbearance that God has exercised toward the wicked, emboldens men in transgression; but their punishment will be none the less certain and terrible for being long delayed. "The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act." Isaiah 28:21. To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live." Ezekiel 33:11. The Lord is "merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, . . . forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin." Yet He will "by no means clear the guilty." Exodus 34:6, 7. While He does not delight in vengeance, He will execute judgment upon the transgressors of His law. He is forced to do this, to preserve the inhabitants of the earth from utter depravity and ruin. In order to save some He must cut off those who have become hardened in sin. "The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked." Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. And the very fact of His reluctance to execute justice testifies to the enormity of the sins that call forth His judgments and to the severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor. {PP 628.1}

I was just going by what you said. I asked you specifically to name something different about the view, other than the duration, and all you mentioned was the duration.



Ok. Glad to hear this. She was commenting on this portion:



I recall you're saying something similar to this earlier (i.e., similar to what I've quoted here, about their being praise happening when the wicked are being burned alive). I'm understanding correctly that you are now disagreeing with this?

Shakespeare said it first. I must give credit where it's due.



Is your argument here that God was cruel in flooding people, so it's OK for Him to be cruel in burning people alive? I have no idea why you're bringing up the Flood here.

Mike,

You've provided some excellent quotes here. It is obvious to me that God can do what He chooses to do, and that we, being sinful subjects of His, should not be trying to say that God cannot punish us because it would be too cruel. He is, after all, so great, that Ellen White was also inspired to write the following:



Regarding the "everlasting" portion of the punishment which will come to the wicked, the Bible is clear. The fire is eternal. But death is the reward for sin, so the sinners are not immortal.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Thank you, GC. Indeed, God is holy, and whatever He does is holy - even if it doesn't make sense to us even if it is a "strange act".

Revelation
4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about [him]; and [they were] full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

They will praise the justice of God. They will not find pleasure in the fact the wicked are being punished according to their sinfulness.

Revelation
16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous [are] thy judgments.

Revelation
18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong [is] the Lord God who judgeth her.

I asked you a question. Please answer it.

1. Do you think God was being cruel when He drowned alive millions of men, women, and children in the Flood?

2. And, do you think God was being cruel when He burned alive hundreds of men, women, and children in the fires of Sodom?

I asked you a question. What does the flood have to do with this? Why are you bringing it up?

Rather than answer my question, you bring up something else. Why are you bringing up Sodom and Gomorrah?

If you're out of the blue going to ask questions about subjects other than what we are talking about, you should provide some sort of motivation for doing so.



Ok, so you're agreeing with the following?



(except for the duration).



Certainly God is holy, but if we see Him as acting completely contrary to Jesus Christ, doing things like burning people alive to "punish" them, we need to seriously question *our* ideas of God's character, not God's holiness.

It sounds like what is being suggested is that since God is holy, He can do whatever He wants, including cruelly punishing people. Who are we to question His burning people alive? After all, He is God; He can do whatever He wants.

I don't believe either that God is like this, nor that He desires that we view His activities in such a way (i.e., that He can do whatever He wants because He is God.) It's certainly true that God is powerful enough to do whatever He wants, but God does not desire a slavish obedience. He desires that His creatures have an intelligent appreciation of His character, the main feature of which is that God is love.

Would you be bringing up the flood as saying that what God did during the flood is the same as what God will ultimately do to those who reject him?



But, it seems like you are reasoning that you would drown the people in the flood, so therefore God would do so, too? How is what you are claiming God would do to those who reject Him any different than what a dictator would do to those who reject him? A dictator may say,





I too am wondering why you did not answer the question of why you brought up the flood and Sodom and Gomorrah. Another thing missing is why you did not address what "punishment" means. Here is what it sounds like you are saying to me:

• God would like people to accept Him.
  
• He gives them opportunities to learn about Him and accept Him.
  
• However, if they still reject Him, He punishes them even though it is too late to teach, correct, or lead them in the way they should go.
  
• God then takes great pleasure in His "strange act" of ..... (I'm not sure what you would put here)

So, it appears, the purpose of this punishment is to satisfy some "vengeful" feelings of God being right. What is "torture", if not satisfying some personal sense of "justice" with no hope of teaching?

Is it possible to allow that God, who is currently sustaining life in spite of sin, will bring to pass His strange act in finally allowing sinners to experience what happens when they separate from the source of life? Through their own choice and no direct act from God other than allowing them that choice?

Again, what is your definition of punishment and how does that fit in with what you think God does to those who reject Him?