Stop and think what this means; let the full force of the announcement impress itself upon your consciousness. "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law,"--from not continuing in all its righteous requirements. We need not sin any more. He has snapped asunder the cords of sin that bound us, so that we have but to accept His salvation in order to be free from every besetting sin. It is not necessary for us any longer to spend our lives in earnest longings for a better life, and in vain regrets for desires unrealized. Christ raises no false hopes, but He comes to the captives of sin, and cries to them, "Liberty! Your prison doors are open. Go forth." What more can be said? Christ has gained the complete victory over "this present evil world," over "the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life," and our faith in Him makes His victory ours. We have but to accept it. (The Glad Tidings)

T: MM do you think a born again person is perfect? (i.e. has no sin, does not sin) I don't mean knowing doing something contrary to he knows is right, but unknown sin. That is, if a person is properly indoctrinated, do you believe such a person, being born again, will have no sin?

MM: Here's how Peter described babes in Christ: "Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, as newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: if so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious." (1 Peter 2:1-3)

"Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God." (1 Peter 4:1, 2)

"And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; and to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins." (2 Peter 1:5-9)

Here's a list of sins Paul says newborn believers do not commit while walking in the Spirit: "Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Gal 5:19-21)

I believe these descriptions describe believers who have been properly indoctrinated in the way of righteousness and true holiness. There is nothing they are ignorant of, no sin which they might practice ignorantly. They are without spot or blame in the sight of God. But, of course, this is only true of them while they are abiding in Jesus. "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not." (1 John 3:6)

Colin, you agree with MM's ideas on this? That is, it is impossible for a properly indoctrinated SDA to commit a sin of ignorance, if abiding in Jesus? MM distinguishes between properly indoctrinated SDA's and others. So a non-SDA, or an improperly indoctrinated SDA could sin ignorantly. Do you agree with this? He also believes that no person anywhere can commit a sin of ignorance which involves any of the last 6 commandments, whether born again or not. Do you agree with this?

Peter committed the same basic sin as he did earlier when Paul rebuked him.

I don't think the 144,000 will be ignorantly sinning.

Do you think a properly indoctrinated SDA can commit any sin (including unknown sins) while abiding in Jesus?

Do you think a properly indoctrinated SDA can commit any sin (including unknown sins) while abiding in Jesus?

The point is there is no such thing as unknown sins in cases involving properly, thoroughly indoctrinated SDAs. They cannot, while abiding in Jesus, commit a sin ignorantly because there is no sin they are not aware of. They are, in this sense, like the 144,000.

Yes, they are full of defects and imperfections, but possessing them is not the same thing as cherishing them in thought or acting them out in word or deed.

In the same way Jesus inherited and possessed fallen traits and tendencies, so too they possess them.

Like Jesus, they rein them in and keep them under the control of a sanctified will and mind.

I'm not saying they will never make a innocent mistake. For example, they might, when asked, accidentally pass the salt instead of the pepper. Such mistakes are laughable. They in no way constitute a sin.

T: Do you think a properly indoctrinated SDA can commit any sin (including unknown sins) while abiding in Jesus?

M: The point is there is no such thing as unknown sins in cases involving properly, thoroughly indoctrinated SDAs. They cannot, while abiding in Jesus, commit a sin ignorantly because there is no sin they are not aware of. They are, in this sense, like the 144,000.

T: I disagree. I think we, even you, commit sins all the time of which we, and you, are not aware.

M: Yes, they are full of defects and imperfections, but possessing them is not the same thing as cherishing them in thought or acting them out in word or deed.

T: These defects and imperfection must not involve sin, right?

M: In the same way Jesus inherited and possessed fallen traits and tendencies, so too they possess them.

T: Are you saying that Jesus had defects and imperfections?

M: Like Jesus, they rein them in and keep them under the control of a sanctified will and mind.

T: This refers to temptations, not sins. Temptations are not defects or imperfections.

M: I'm not saying they will never make a innocent mistake. For example, they might, when asked, accidentally pass the salt instead of the pepper. Such mistakes are laughable. They in no way constitute a sin.

T: I guess you don't think it's possible that a person could do or desire something with a wrong motivation without knowing it? For example, desire that Christ come to take us away in clouds of glory so our time in this sinful world could be cut short.

Peter committed the same basic sin as he did earlier when Paul rebuked him.

I don't think the 144,000 will be ignorantly sinning.