You right that "such a thing is the fruit of abiding in Jesus in truth and righteousness and true holiness." This is only true to a point, because the church is a body. That is, the body of Christ depends upon the church as a whole contributing. This is why Christ hasn't come. As EGW puts it, there have always been a few in each generation which have been faithful as Enoch was, but this isn't enough. There needs to be a Corporate work. So when a message is sent by God, and that message is rejected, the church as a whole suffers. The message which prepares the harvest to present the final message mentioned in COL 415 never is given a chance to do its work, so the revelation of God's character mentioned never takes place.



True. Even when the concepts are perfectly communicated, there is still confusion, so it behooves us to be as careful as possible. Recently I've been referring to "Christ's assumed human nature" which seems like a pretty clear phrase.

3.Yes, it seems possible, reading over the description. She refers to Peter having "so far overcame his natural prejudice," which looks to be indicated he failed in this regard at the meeting where he left the Gentiles.



It looks like she's talking about the same thing as in the previous sentence. She says all will "will through faith in the atoning sacrifice of Christ become a partaker of the divine nature". I think she's talking about this.



It looks like she's saying all believers have this. It's not something they reach, but something they have when believing in Jesus.

She communicates the same principle here:



I think this is saying exactly the same thing as the other quote, and is easier to understand.



Because people aren't aware of what they are doing. They need to be shown that a motivation they have is self-centered, or, more likely, has a self-centered aspect to it. It's not likely that a converted person would be doing something which is totally self-centered. However, a person could do something thinking his motives are 100% pure when they're not. This isn't a willful sin, of course.

For example, desiring to go to heaven because it's better than being here smacks of an ego-centric motivation. One hears these sorts of prayers all the time "Come soon to take us away from this sin-cursed earth in clouds of glory." As opposed to praying that Christ may come so that He may receive *His* reward, and be crowned King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

If a person believes God will torture and kill you if you don't do what He says, it seems inevitable to me that such a person will have egocentric motivations creeping into the picture. I don't see how this could be avoided. That doesn't necessarily mean the person is not saved, or not abiding in Jesus, but his perception of God's character would be contributing to unknown sin and egocentric motivations.



These are the things we've been discussing in a number of threads. For example, your idea that no one can commit a sin of ignorance which involves the last 6 commandments, or that a properly indoctrinated SDA cannot commit any known sin at all. Or the idea that being born again involves a prolonged process of confessing all one's sinful habits, and when one gets to the last one, only then is one born again.

1. Everyone is born with an instinctive knowledge of what is morally right and wrong (as defined by the last six commandments). This is not to say everyone can recite the last six commandments. People naturally know it is wrong to dishonor their parents, to murder someone, to cheat on their spouse, to steal, to lie, and to want something that is not theirs to have. Thus, there is no such thing as a sin of ignorance so far as the last six commandments are concerned.

2. Properly indoctrinated SDAs who are abiding in Jesus, who are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, who are partaking of the divine nature, "doth not and cannot" commit a sin, that is, any kind of sin. They must first neglect to abide in Jesus and then all they can do is sin.

3. People experience the miracle of rebirth the instant their old man (cultivated sinful traits and habits) is crucified. It is the result of a "long, patient, protracted process" which involves confessing their cultivated sinful traits and habits in light of the cross as the Holy Spirit reveals them. The moment they finish confessing the last cultivated sinful trait and habit revealed to them by the Holy Spirit, their old man dies and they are resurrected, as it were, with the sinless mind of the new man which comes complete with all the righteous fruits and attributes of God's character. They then begin the lifelong process of maturing in the fruits of Spirit. Eternity isn't long enough to exhaust their ability to become more and more mature in the fruits of the Spirit.

Again, it is clear in the Bible and the SOP that people who experience real rebirth, the genuine article, are reborn dead to sin and awake to righteousness. They are born again without their former old man traits and habits. Should they die before the Second Advent, Jesus will not need to change their character. This is true of everyone from the thief on the cross to the apostle Paul. Nor will He need to change the characters of the 144,000. Everyone who experiences the miracle of rebirth is born again without their former cultivated sinful traits and habits. They are new creatures in Christ. The old is gone, behold, everything is new.

Romans
6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

2 Corinthians
5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

1 John
3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again (RH April 12, 1892). {6BC 1101.1}

The old sinful life is dead; the new life entered into with Christ by the pledge of baptism. Practise the virtues of the Saviour's character. Let His wisdom dwell in you richly in all wisdom; "teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him." . . . The sins that were practised before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man. With the new man, Christ Jesus, are to be put on "kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering." {SD 300.3}

This is true to some extent. It's also true for the first four commandments. The Sabbath is a special case in regards to which day is the Sabbath, but that one should take time to rest, and contemplate God is something people have an intuitive or instinctive knowledge about. One sees this principle in virtually every religion.



Your last sentence is a claim I've never seen before (besides by you). I'm not aware of any evidence that this is the case. I can think of many counter-examples to this idea. For example, someone asked:



These are good questions, which rightly bring out that people can cohabit ignorantly.



Of course this is self-contradictory, since neglecting to abide in Jesus is of itself a sin. It seems to me that you have a limited view of sin, and that this is the only way one could make an assertion like this.



This is backwards! Being born again is what comes first. The old man is crucified when one is born again. Being born again means to be converted, which is a transformation of mind and heart, motivated by the love of God shining from the cross. Only as one responds to that love can the old man be crucified.



Not at all! This isn't what the SOP statement says at all.



The patient, protracted process has nothing to do with confessing cultivated traits of character! It has to do with the soul surrendering itself to Jesus as a response to a direct appeal of the Spirit. The patient, protracted process refers to the preparation of the Spirit to prepare the human heart to be as susceptible as possible to its appeal.



I really don't have any idea how or why you have this idea of how conversion works. The way conversion works is just as the above quote describes it. Here's another description:



Here's another one:



This one is great! This is exactly right, exactly what happens.

Regarding your next post, I agree with the SOP statements that rebirth is a transformation. I think a large part of our disagreement has to do with our conception as to what is important. You seem to have a very rules-based orientation, viewing sin as having to do with a rather limited set of behaviors. You don't present sin as having to do with motivations or with conceptions of God's character.

When one is converted, one's desire is to serve God. When I was first converted I knew nothing about theology. I studied Calvinism, and agreed with its ideas. By the way, one of the reasons I'm sensitive to Calvinism entering into Adventism is because of this background. I had to "unlearn" what I had learned as a Calvinist in becoming an Adventist. It is very odd to come across these same ideas in Adventism that I had left behind in becoming an Adventist, but I digress.

As a Calvinist, I unwittingly presented false ideas about God's character. In one sense, this is sin. If I claim that God will have people tormented for all eternity to pay for sins they have committed if they do not accept Christ, I am misrepresenting His character, which certainly isn't a righteous thing to do. However, in another sense, this isn't sin, if I do so ignorantly:



This is the essence of unknown sin, or sins of ignorance. Now surely the thief on the cross did not understand perfectly God's character. We know from the parable of Lazarus and the rich man that the idea that the soul would immediately go to heaven upon death was commonplace, so it is not unlikely that the thief on the cross had the very misconception I had before becoming an Adventist.

However, he had surrendered his heart to Christ, and this was enough.

This is not enough for the for work of the 144,000. For that work, it's necessary to have a mature understanding of the character of God.

As you very well know I was the one who asked those questions, and you also know I addressed them later on in a totally different way than you did here. I said sin always pays its wages. People who shack up feel a sense of emptiness. There is a God-sized hole in their heart that they cannot satisfactorily fill while living in sin. It matters not whether they live in sin ignorantly or intentionally. Sin always pays its wages.


Not so. It results in sin. A&E were not guilty of sin until they actually ate the forbidden fruit. Separation results in sin.


I believe people are born again without their former sinful old man traits and habits. "The sins that were practised before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man. With the new man, Christ Jesus, are to be put on "kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering." {SD 300.3} They are dead to sin and awake to righteousness. Not one single sin survives. They are resurrected, as it were, without their former sins.

You seem to think people are ignorantly born again with certain old man traits and habits in tact. Do you have any Bible or SOP passages to back up your assertion?

I also believe that those "who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ." {6BC 1101.1} IOW, all of their habits and practices are in harmony with the will of God. Not one habit or practice comes short of the glory of God.

You seem to think people ignorantly retain some of their sinful habits and practices after they experience rebirth. Why are they ignorant of them? Do you apply this to people who have been properly indoctrinated in accordance with biblical and SOP counsel?


What a curious thing to accuse me of, especially since I just said I believe people are born again without any of their previously cultivated sinful habits and practices. This view is completely comprehensive. It is not limited in any way.


This is also a curious accusation in light of what I have been repeatedly saying. "The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies." Abiding in Jesus is everything. It is the key to glorifying God in all we think, say, and do. Focusing on Jesus is the fountain of faith, hope, and love. There is a thorough searching of mind and heart that happens when people know God. Nothing escapes His attention to remain as a source of darkness and sin.

"One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

I agree!



Before I asked you if it was a sin, and you said it was.

Ok, let's leave that aside, and go with the idea that neglecting to abide in Jesus Christ is not a sin. I think it's easy to demonstrate this is false. Let's make the following assumptions:

a.When one is abiding in Jesus, one has communion with God through the Holy Spirit.

b.Before one can cease to abide in Jesus, one must resist the Holy Spirit, who warns the believer not to sever this connection.

c.Resisting the Holy Spirit is sin.



Because they don't know about them. I realize this is just rephrasing your question other words, but you're asking why people don't know something they don't know. There's no way to answer this other than by saying they don't know what they don't know.



Of course. There's no way a person could be indoctrinated on every possible sin. It would take many centuries to complete such a course. We'd have no new SDA's, because all prospects would die before they could be baptized.



T:The fact you think this is possible is evidence if the view being limited. It's like thinking that's it's possible to count the sands of a beach. If someone said, "I believe a people are born again when they confess every grain of sand on a beach" that would indicate a limited view as to how many grains of sand there are on a beach.



This is a passing reference. You spend hundreds of times more effort and time dealing with behaviors than motives. For example, you ask over and over and over for lists of sins which fall into certain categories. I don't recall you're bringing up sin in terms of misconceptions of God's character at all. It could just be faulty memory on my part, but it's certainly not a common theme of yours.



I took the liberty of underlining the last sentence here. This is certainly true.



I agree with this too, but this takes time. This isn't completed the moment one first comes to Jesus.

Consider an alcoholic who gives His life to Christ, and is cured of his addiction. There are many accounts of this happening. Do you think such a fellow is lost? Do you think he has he no sinful habits? I don't know which of these you would throw out, but one moment the fellow is a destitute bum, the next he is a Son of God, and has just started learning what "proper behavior" for a Christian is. Do you think all of a sudden this person no longer swears? Do you think 100% of these people gave up smoking? Do you think they immediately broke up with any girlfriends they may have had to whom they were not married?

This view just isn't realistic. It doesn't fit either reality, or the description in inspiration as to how a person is converted. Consider the story of the publican:



There's no procession of sins to confess. There is an overwhelming sense of guilt, and a plea for mercy. That's it!

This fits exactly my conversion. *After* I was converted, the Holy Spirit began to draw my attention to different things. But the conversion itself took a moment (even though the process leading up to it was a protracted, prolonged process, as the SOP points out). I saw I was lost, and asked God for help. Actually I didn't even ask God for help, I just expressed my hopelessness. God presented the cross to me, and said, "This is all you need." I was amazed. I responded, and was converted, just like the publican.

True. But neglecting to abide in Jesus does not require consciously resisting the Holy Spirit. Thus, it is not in and of itself a sin. Consciously resisting the Holy Spirit constitutes a willful, deliberate, intentional, premeditated sin. This is not happens when a born again believer neglects to abide in Jesus.


It is the office and duty of the Holy Spirit to convict people, in light of the cross, to confess and crucify the sinful habits and practices they have cultivated throughout their earthly sojourn. “He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness.” (John 16:8) “To convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed.” (Jude 1:15)

It is logical, therefore, to infer from these inspired passages that it is the Holy Spirit who makes people aware of the sinfulness of their sinful habits and practices in a new and fresh and saving way. Consequently, all the sinful habits and practices people confess and crucify when they experience the miracle of rebirth is a direct result of the work of the Holy Spirit.

But you, Tom, believe people are reborn with certain sinful habits and practices in tact. You also seem to believe they are ignorant of them, that they continue practicing them unaware of the fact they are sinning. When asked why you think they are ignorant of them you reply – “There's no way to answer this other than by saying they don't know what they don't know.”

On the flipside of this issue, I assume you understand why they know what they know, that is, I assume you know it’s because the Holy Spirit revealed it to them. Wouldn’t make it sense, then, to deduce they don’t know what they don’t know because the Holy Spirit has not yet revealed it to them? If this is the case, then it begs another question – Why didn’t the Holy Spirit reveal it to them along with all the other sinful habits and practices He revealed to them? Why wait to reveal it to them after they are born again and baptized?


If it takes “many centuries” to finish confessing and crucifying our sinfulness, how, then, will the 144,000 be able to stand before God spotless and without blame?

Also, does this insight imply we will finish confessing and crucifying our sinful habits and practices in heaven? If so, doesn’t this also imply will be sinning in heaven until we get around to completing confessing and crucifying the last of our sins?


I’m not talking about confessing the thousands of sins people have committed by the time they experience the miracle of rebirth. I’m talking about the resulting traits of character, what you (or Waggoner) refer to as “representative sins”. When boiled down to their lowest common denominator all sins fall under the same heading – Selfishness. Yes, there are subtitles and groupings of similar sins, but these are not so many that they cannot be confessed in a relatively short period of time. Again, listen:

One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}


Neither do people experience rebirth the instant they begin responding to the wooing of the Holy Spirit. Some people spend time meditating on Jesus, reading the Bible, and listening to sermons in church before they are born again and consent to be baptized and join the church. Others, unfortunately, get baptized and join the church before they crucify their old man habits and practices. These people and their sins become a source of perplexity in the church. Listen:

By an agency as unseen as the wind, Christ is constantly working upon the heart. Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through meditating upon Him, through reading the Scriptures, or through hearing the word from the living preacher. Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus. By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process. {DA 172.3}

The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ (MS 148, 1897). {6BC 1075.7}


Thank you for sharing your testimony. I know how you must have felt when you finally gave your heart to Jesus. I have fond memories of the day I gave my heart to Jesus. Like you, though, I didn’t understand everything. Unlike you, I suppose, my coarse and callused ways became a source of stress for many of the members at church. Newcomers saw me and judged the church unworthy of their time and attention. They reasoned within themselves, “If this wretched man is an example of the fruit of this church and its doctrines, well, thanks, but no thanks.” Like a bull in a china shop, I was. Oh dreadful days of my life!

Before you said it was a sin. I think your original version was correct.

You agree on the one hand that resisting the Holy Spirit is a sin, but then turn around and say that it isn't, because you can do it unconsciously. So you seem to think it's not a big deal, neglecting to abide in Christ. At the very least, the Holy Spirit seems not to think it's a big deal, since He allows you to neglect to do so without conscious effort.



Since the Holy Spirit doesn't reveal every sinful habit before a person is born again, it's clear this isn't necessary for conversion. Here's a description of conversion:



Here's another one:



We are converted when we recognize our need for Christ, and surrender to the appeal of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does not require that every sinful habit we have be confessed before He makes an appeal to us. If there is some particular sin or sins which prevent us from giving our hearts to the Lord, He makes us aware of that.



As soon as a person believes in Christ, He is born again. The DA 172 text, speaking of the protracted process, is dealing with preparing the soul so that it will respond to the appeal the Holy Spirit make to accept Christ, as described in the two quotes I provided. The text itself that you quote from in DA 172 explains this. It says nothing about confessing every sin before being able to be born again. It speaks about responding to the appeal of the Holy Spirit in relation to Christ.

We need Christ to be saved. Not a works program of confession.

Tom, you skipped over so much of what I posted that I hardly understand what you're responding to. You did not do justice to my post.

You seem to be saying people sin when they unconsciously fail to abide in Jesus. If so, which commandment do you think is violated?

You also seem to agree the Holy Spirit waits to reveal certain sinful habits until sometime after people are born again. But you didn't explain why? Why does the Holy Spirit wait to reveal them?

If a person dies before the Holy Spirit finishes revealing all of their old man habits of sin what will Jesus do about it when He resurrects them? Will He simply raise them without their uncrucified sinful habits? Or, will they rise up and resume where they left off ignorantly sinning?

Given your understanding of rebirth, that is, since you believe people are born again with certain cultivated sinful habits unrevealed and uncrucified, how would you explain and apply the following passages? For example, would you point out that the sinful habits people retain after they are born again do not count as "self" or "attributes of Satan" and do not cause "perplexities" in the church? Would you also explain that rebirth happens more frequently nowadays?


Finally, taking into consideration what you believe about rebirth and uncrucified sinful habits, how would you reword or paraphrase the following quotes to plainly state your position so as to avoid any confusion? For example, would you clarify or replace the word "every" to make it clear that not every sinful habit is revealed during the process that leads to rebirth? And, would you explain it is possible to reveal Jesus "in all their habits and practices" while at the same time retaining some of "the old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits . . . their natural defects of character and disposition"?

It is your idea that a person must stop abiding in Jesus before he can sin. This is not something I am saying. Please, don't ascribe this to me!

Originally *you* said ceasing to abide in Jesus was a sin. Then apparently you changed your mind and say it isn't. I said what you originally said made more sense than what you are saying now, but neither what you said before nor what you are saying now is my idea, or something I am saying.

I already explained my logic. If you want me to pick a commandments, how about the first one! Please note also that I did not say this was something they did unconsciously, but this was your idea too.



Both Rosangela and I have spent a great deal of time dealing with these questions. Both she and I have explained why.



The truth will be explained to the person, and that will take care of the matter. Think of the Sabbath as an example.



When self dies, one lives to serve Christ, and does not willfully rebel against Him, but seeks to please Him. The converted person begins a new walk, where he beings to learn new things including behavior, the character of God, his own motivations.



One could add "that one is aware of" at appropriate spots. I, myself, wouldn't think this to be necessary, as it seems obvious to me, but in regards to how you are reading her statement, that would be my suggestion.

I really don't understand how you can have the theory of conversion that you have. We have complete descriptions of it which I provided for you. They say nothing of lists of sins to confess. The description that she gave is both my experience, and the experience of other believers I have met.