Now that you've made it clear what you don't believe, please explain what you do believe. You sort of left me hanging. I seem to remember you saying somewhere that people do indeed sin while abiding in Jesus, that abiding in Jesus does not mean they do not sin, that people regularly sin and repent while abiding in Jesus. If this is what you believe?


Did I state your position correctly? If not, please explain it. Thank you. It's not clear to me what you believe.

I do seem to remember you saying the Holy Spirit waits to reveal certain sinful habits and practices until sometime after a person is reborn for several reasons, but I'm not sure I understood them all. It sounded to me like you were saying one reason is because it would be too painful or overwhelming for people to deal with confessing and giving up certain sins, and, so as not to blow them away, the Holy Spirit allows them to remain in ignorance until the time is right to reveal them. I also seem to remember you saying another reason is because they are too hard-hearted to give up certain sins.


So, besides truths like the Sabbath, what else would the Holy Spirit purposely overlook and wait to reveal because people would be blown away if they were told too soon or before they died? IOW, which sins would not count as "self" or the "attributes of Satan" and would not cause "perplexities" in the church?


Tom, you did not answer my questions at all. Please address them straight forwardly. I asked very specific questions. Thank you.


What is it about those specific quotes which lead you to believe she didn't mean exactly what she wrote, that she intended for us to interpret what she wrote to mean something different? Why would she write something so plainly if she didn't intend for us to take it as plainly as she wrote it? It seems rather reckless to state something so strongly, so plainly and yet not mean it.


As you know, Ellen testified that rebirth was rare in her day. Would you say rebirth is more common nowadays? Do you know of any place in the Bible or the SOP where it plainly says rebirth will be more common in the lasts days?

You seem to believe people are born again ignorant of certain cultivated sins, that they are reborn practicing some of the same sinful habits and practices they did prior to accepting Jesus as their Savior. You seem to believe quotes like the following one should be interpreted to agree with this position: "The sins that were practised before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man." (SD 300)

Is this what you believe? Or, have I misunderstood your position? You have yet to answer this question plainly enough for me to know precisely what you believe. I would appreciate a definitive answer. Thank you.

What do you mean by "abide in Jesus"?

Regarding what I believe, I believe people sin in ignorance regularly. I believe the Holy Spirit educates people, and that the process of leaning one's sins of ignorance takes time. I believe the 1888 message accelerates this process, which was simply the beginning of the latter rain. Later messages, which are not simply the beginning, should accelerate it even more.



On this specific point, it should be clear, as both Rosangela and I have explained it clearly. A person may not understand that a given thing is sin, not because of any lack on the part of God, but because of the person's one shortcomings.



The principle one is that it does not good to tell someone something they can't understand.



The first one seems possible, but not the second.



The Sabbath is fine as an example. Any other sins of ignorance would be another example.



MM, you're trying to put words in my mouth. I can't answer your first question as stated because it's a FOTAP question (fallacy of the assumed premise.)

Regarding your other questions, I do not disagree with the EGW said, so no, I would not put things in the way you suggested.

What I said is how I would put things.



I think the problem is not that the didn't mean exactly what she wrote, but that you are not understanding what she meant by what she wrote. In the Nicodemus chapter, from DA, that I have quoted several times, she asks the question, "What, then, must one do to be saved"? She describes the love of God revealed by the cross, and points out that one will be saved if one does not resist this drawing. I believe this description to be accurate, and not missing anything (like long lists of confessions).

Your conception of God's character is much different than mine, in the fact that you even think that God would be interested in what you're suggesting. I look at Jesus Christ's dealings with the Pharisees, and see a completely different picture. "The Kingdom of God is within you." Being born again involves a change from within. It's not something that can be obtained by a protracted, prolonged experience of confessing wrongdoings. Being born again involves Christ; believing Him, and receiving Him as one's personal Savior.



These are FOTAP questions. I've not said anything about rebirth being more common now than previously.



What I have said is that people when they are born again are not instantly perfect. There are still sins of ignorance that they have to learn about. In particular, sins regarding misrepresenting God's character, or one's motivation for following God are sins of ignorance which seem very common to me.

Is there a sin that you know of that does not misrepresent the character of God? If not, why, then, does it seem like you are setting it apart as distinct and unique? Also, do you know of a sinful reason for following God, reasons or motivations that require repentance? Would such reasons and motivations exclude a person from entering the kingdom of God should they die before progressing to sinless reasons and motivations for following God?

Finally, the thing that I am having the hardest time understanding, the one thing you have yet to plainly explain, is why you interpret insights like the following one to mean the Holy Spirit does not reveal to people all of the sins they practiced before rebirth, that insights like this one mean the Holy Spirit waits to reveal certain sinful practices until some time after they are reborn:

"The sins that were practised before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man." (SD 300)

It would be extremely helpful if you would supply inspired quotes from the Bible and/or the SOP which plainly say people who experience genuine rebirth are born again with some of their sinful practices unrevealed, unconfessed, and uncrucified, that they are born again in certain ways no different than they were before they experienced rebirth in that they still practice some of the sins they cultivated before they accepted Jesus as their Savior.

Also, I realize you are loathe to name concrete examples of sinful practices the Holy Spirit waits to reveal until some time after people are born again, therefore, please simply quote the examples used in the Bible or the SOP. If there aren't any examples in the Bible or the SOP, then please explain why? Thank you.

PS - I hope I have stated my question adequately enough for you to answer it adequately.

Any sin would misrepresent God's character of course, but one could misrepresent God's character without doing something outwardly wrong, which the Pharisees demonstrated.



Yes. Judas is an example.



I think this question presupposes an invalid way of looking at things. The love shining from the cross draws us to Christ. If we do not resist this drawing, we will be in the kingdom of heaven.

When a person is born again, they lay aside the sinful practices of which they are aware. Any sinful practice of which they are not aware, such as breaking the Sabbath, or ignorantly living in sin, or ignorantly smoking or drinking, impure speech, to name a couple, would be an examples of sinful practices a born again believer could have after conversion.

What did you mean by it when you wrote those things about it? My goal here is to understand what you are saying about it. Did I represent your view correctly above? If not, please plainly explain your view.

Now, as for what I think it means. I believe it means being died to sin and awake to righteousness, it means being transformed, it means walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, it means partaking of the divine nature, it means being like Jesus. God does not share the throne of our soul-temple with sin, self, or Satan. We are either all of His and free of sin or we are none of His and full of sin. "Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Rom 8:9) There is no neutral ground. Listen:

PS - Tom, I see that you posted a response while I was writing my last one. I assume you are going to finish addressing it. If not, then please do so. Thank you.

At first glance, your description of what it means to "abide in Jesus" seems to be in harmony with what I think. I would express "abiding in Jesus" as simply continuing in the process of being justified by faith.

Regarding people sinning while abiding in Jesus, since justification by faith means in terms of the definition of the terms being used, "obedience to the law by faith," and using the definition that "sin is transgression of the law" (i.e. knowingly doing so), it wouldn't be possible to both obey and sin at the same time. However, if one considers sins of ignorance, it is possible to commit a sin of ignorance while one is being justified by faith. These sins do not bring condemnation, however:



Regarding #106706, I don't know what you're referring to.

I'm referring to this portion of #106066:

Finally, the thing that I am having the hardest time understanding, the one thing you have yet to plainly explain, is why you interpret insights like the following one to mean the Holy Spirit does not reveal to people all of the sins they practiced before rebirth, that insights like this one mean the Holy Spirit waits to reveal certain sinful practices until some time after they are reborn:

"The sins that were practised before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man." (SD 300)

It would be extremely helpful if you would supply inspired quotes from the Bible and/or the SOP which plainly say people who experience genuine rebirth are born again with some of their sinful practices unrevealed, unconfessed, and uncrucified, that they are born again in certain ways no different than they were before they experienced rebirth in that they still practice some of the sins they cultivated before they accepted Jesus as their Savior.

Also, I realize you are loathe to name concrete examples of sinful practices the Holy Spirit waits to reveal until some time after people are born again, therefore, please simply quote the examples used in the Bible or the SOP. If there aren't any examples in the Bible or the SOP, then please explain why? Thank you.

PS - I hope I have stated my question adequately enough for you to answer it adequately.

The definition of sin you quoted includes sins of ignorance. Sin is the transgression of the law whether a person knows it or not. The difference is God does not count people guilty when they sin ignorantly. Nevertheless, death still has to happen in consequence of sins of ignorance. Sin cannot be simply ignored or dismissed as if it never happened or doesn't matter.

Jesus paid the sin debt of death for all the sins of the world which includes sins of ignorance. No sin is innocuous or immune. God earned the legal right not to impute guilt and condemnation in cases involving sins of ignorance by virtue of the fact Jesus paid the penalty for all sins including the sins of ignorance.

On a different note, I agree with you that people can abide in Jesus while also unwittingly committing some of the sins they practiced and cultivated ignorantly before they experienced rebirth. But this isn't saying much since we disagree greatly as to what constitutes or qualifies as sins of ignorance.

I have a sneaky suspicion you have the ability to logically argue, to your satisfaction, that any and all sins can, under the right situation, qualify as a sin of ignorance. Let me ask you a question to verify my suspicions: Can you name a sin that under no circumstances qualifies as a sin of ignorance? By "under no circumstances" I am including Paul's Gentiles and Ellen's savages who effectively live in harmony with the law of God without ever having read or heard about Jesus.

I thought we agree that there were too many sins for God to reveal all of them, that what He does instead is to reveal certain representative sins.



She makes the point that known sins are put away. Of course this is the case. She is counteracting the idea of some that because one is under grace, it is OK to continue with known sins. She has statements that make it clear that she didn't believe in instant sanctification, that there were things, sins, that God would need to reveal to us during our growth as Christians. I know Rosangela has cited some of these to you.



This is like a bad virus that won't go away. You've asked me this question probably over 50 times, and I've responded many, many, many times. You can use the search utility to find some answers.



No it doesn't.



Also this is verifiable by actual experience. Christians do commit sins of ignorance after being born again. Smoking, drinking, and not keeping the Sabbath are examples I've given.

I disagree with your whole conception of the problem of sin, and the solution. I see the problem being that outlined by EGW in the first chapter of "The Desire of Ages."

In the beginning, God was revealed in all the works of creation. It was Christ that spread the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth. It was His hand that hung the worlds in space, and fashioned the flowers of the field. "His strength setteth fast the mountains." "The sea is His, and He made it." Ps. 65:6; 95:5. It was He that filled the earth with beauty, and the air with song. And upon all things in earth, and air, and sky, He wrote the message of the Father's love.

Now sin has marred God's perfect work, yet that handwriting remains. Even now all created things declare the glory of His excellence. There is nothing, save the selfish heart of man, that lives unto itself. No bird that cleaves the air, no animal that moves upon the ground, but ministers to some other life. There is no leaf of the forest, or lowly blade of grass, but has its ministry. Every tree and shrub and leaf pours forth that element of life without which neither man nor animal could live; and man and animal, in turn, minister to the life of tree and shrub and leaf. The flowers breathe fragrance and unfold their beauty in blessing to the world. The sun sheds its light to gladden a thousand worlds. The ocean, itself the source of all our springs and fountains, receives the streams from every land, but takes to give. The mists ascending from its bosom fall in showers to water the earth, that it may bring forth and bud.

The angels of glory find their joy in giving,--giving love and tireless watchcare to souls that are fallen and unholy. Heavenly beings woo the hearts of men; they bring to this dark world light from the courts above; by gentle and patient ministry they move upon the human spirit, to bring the lost into a fellowship with Christ which is even closer than they themselves can know.

But turning from all lesser representations, we behold God in Jesus. Looking unto Jesus we see that it is the glory of our God to give. "I do nothing of Myself," said Christ; "the living Father hath sent Me, and I live by the Father." "I seek not Mine own glory," but the glory of Him that sent Me. John 8:28; 6:57; 8:50; 7:18. In these words is set forth the great principle which is the law of life for the universe. All things Christ received from God, but He took to give. So in the heavenly courts, in His ministry for all created beings: through the beloved Son, the Father's life flows out to all; through the Son it returns, in praise and joyous service, a tide of love, to the great Source of all. And thus through Christ the circuit of beneficence is complete, representing the character of the great Giver, the law of life.

In heaven itself this law was broken. Sin originated in self-seeking. Lucifer, the covering cherub, desired to be first in heaven. He sought to gain control of heavenly beings, to draw them away from their Creator, and to win their homage to himself. Therefore he misrepresented God, attributing to Him the desire for self-exaltation. With his own evil characteristics he sought to invest the loving Creator. Thus he deceived angels. Thus he deceived men. He led them to doubt the word of God, and to distrust His goodness. Because God is a God of justice and terrible majesty, Satan caused them to look upon Him as severe and unforgiving. Thus he drew men to join him in rebellion against God, and the night of woe settled down upon the world.

The earth was dark through misapprehension of God. That the gloomy shadows might be lightened, that the world might be brought back to God, Satan's deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it known. Upon the world's dark night the Sun of Righteousness must rise, "with healing in His wings." Mal. 4:2. (DA 20-22)

I quoted more than usual. Even in inspiration, there are high points. For example, John 3:16, Isa. 53, 1 Cor. 13. For me, this is such a high point in the SOP writings. The first chapter of "The Desire of Ages" is just an amazing piece of writing. It's beautifully written, and the principles are profound. I love the "circuit of beneficence" concept, the way she illustrated it, and how she fit it into the Plan of Salvation. This chapter has strongly influenced how I look at things.

To summarize in my own words what she outlined here:
a.There is a law of life for the universe, which is characterized by self-sacrificing love. This is the "circuit of beneficence" she speaks of, where one receives from the hand of God to give to others (including back to God Himself).
b.This law was broken, by Lucifer, who sought to exalt himself, which is the essence of sin.
c.Satan, in order to exalt himself, misrepresented God. This is how he deceived both angels and men.
d.The world became dark with misunderstanding in relation to God. In order to set things straight, God sent His Son, with healing in His wings, to reveal the truth about God.

In ST 1/20/90 she says this was the "whole purpose" of His mission on earth.

I understand the atonement in this context. I understand all the statements you quote from her in this context.



Actually I think this is an important clarification. You agree that 1 John 3:9 does not mean that a Christian cannot ignorantly sin, a point I have been stressing. If we are simply disagreeing as to what constitutes "sins of ignorance," that's a much small difference than if we are disagreeing as to what the text is saying.



Romans 1 speaks of no one being without excuse for acknowledging God and giving Him thanks, because He has made Himself known, so that would be an example.