There ARE conditions to receiving the mercy of God Mike-san. You may want to read my 2004-08-12 03:55 AM post.

I do not merit my dad giving me a new car, but if it is unconditional, then he has to give it to me.

God actually kills the wicked with the 2nd death. It is not just that he reveals his love which the wicked cannot stand so they die.

A Word to the Little Flock:

quote:

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...the Almighty breathed from his high throne, on the City, a breath of devouring fire, which came down on them, and burnt them up, "root and branch."
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This will not take place, until Jesus has finished his priestly office in the Heavenly Sanctuary, and lays off his priestly attire, and puts on his most kingly robes, and crown, to ride forth on the cloudy chariot, to "thresh the heathen in anger," and deliver his people.
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Jesus raised his mighty glorious arm, laid hold of the gate and swung it back on its golden hinges, and said to us, You have washed your robes in my blood, stood stiffly for my truth, enter in.

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Does he thresh the heathen in love, or in anger?

Hi Daniel

I have no problem with there being conditions to receiving God's mercy, recieving mercy would be the same as receiving salvation. But I asked for some references to the conditions for God loving us. Are love and mercy the same thing?

Are love and receiving love the same thing? I don't think so. Think of the story of the prodigal son. While he was in the far off country did his father love him? Yes, he was watching for him every day. Was he receiving that love, experiencing the benefits of it? No? Why? He had cut himself off from his father's love. When did he receive it? When he went back home. So there father loved him at home or away but he had to choose to place himself in a position to receive that love. So the reception of love has conditions. We must choose to place ourselves in a position to receive God's love which is already there.

So, again, what are the conditions for God loving us, not for our reception of that love?

The fact that God will destroy those who ultimately refuse to receive His love does not mean He does not love them. Since God is love all that He does is a manifestation of that love, including His "strange act" of destroying the wicked.

Mike Carner

Just had another thought on this subject.

If God's love is conditional that means He would love us in response to our meeting those conditions. This is the basis of pagan worship. The idea that we must do something to make the gods loves us. If my god is angry I must do something to appease him, if its bad enough I may need to offer my child as a human sacrifice.

In paganism the human is the actor or initiater and the god is the reacter in the relationship. I have done abc and now my god will do xyz.

In Christianity God is the initiater and we are the respondants. We love Him because He first loved us. Not the other way around.

Mike

"This [the destruction of the wicked] is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them." DA 764

1. The destruction of the wicked is not an arbitrary act of God.
2. The wicked reap that which they have sown.
3. They have cut themselves off from life, by separating themselves from God.
4. God's presence is a consuming fire to the wicked.

God does not change Himself and reveal Himself one way to the wicked and another to the rightoues. He is who He is (Jehova).

"The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil" (Isa. 33:14, 15)

"The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: 'O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;' 'for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity.' Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will." GC 35

1. The sufferings of the Jews (which are typical of the final destruction of the wicked) are often represented as being by the direct decree of God.
2. This is how Satan seeks to conceal his own work.

"We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan."(continuation of the above quote)

1. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression.
2. God leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown.

"It is not the fear of punishment, or the hope of everlasting reward, that leads the disciples of Christ to follow Him. They behold the Saviour's matchless love, revealed throughout His pilgrimage on earth, from the manger of Bethlehem to Calvary's cross, and the sight of Him attracts, it softens and subdues the soul. Love awakens in the heart of the beholders. They hear His voice, and they follow Him." DA 480

1. It is not the hope of reward that caused Christ's followers to follow Him.
2. Nor is it the fear of punishment.
3. It is the matchless love of Christ revealed at the cross.

John-san, In re-reading the posts i see where i did not answer one question of yours:
I also wonder about the usage of the word "hate" in the Bible. Does it always means "hate" the way we think of it?
No it doesn't, which is why i left out the obvious different usages, and even the borderline usages. I tried to be careful to quote only those instances where the meaning is too clear to be misunderstood - that God does hate sometimes.

Didn't God send his angel to kill 185,000 Assyrians once, and send his Spirit on many different OT people like Samson, who promptly went out and killed 1,000 heathen? Didn't God send judgements on the Egyptians and kill all their first-born? Where did fire and brimstone come from to burn up some cities given over to homosexuality? And in the most amazing instance of God killing, he was sorry that he even made us humans, and killed probably hundreds of millions, perhaps billions, only saving 8 in the ark.

Their time of probation was past, and they perished. In the same manner, there will be another close of probation soon, and this time it will be for the whole planet again.

Most everyone who believes in "unconditional love", also tends to play down God's attribute of justice. It is nice to see a few posters here that still uphold the justice aspect of God. What i'm trying to show, is that taken to its logical conclusion, "unconditional love" leads to universalism. I've met this again and again.

It may not be news to viewers of this post, but there is determined work going on now to bring all the world's religions into one. Two years ago the evangelical representatives and Catholic representatives came to an agreement that Jews do not need to believe in Jesus Christ to be saved, basically because the promises made to them in the OT are unconditional. Of course if that is true, then there is no reason for Muslims, Hindus, Evolutions etc. to believe in Jesus either to be saved.

Even some Adventists are caught up in this. The head of Adventist/Muslim relations uses this "unconditional love" meme to give support to his belief that the Muslim god - Allah, is the same as the Christian god - the Father/Son/Holy Spirit. If you wish, you can see our email exchange here:
Is the Muslim God and the Christian God the Same?

The story of the prodigal son is very touching. But does it teach unconditional love? Please allow me the liberty to change the parable a bit:
The son went out from his father, and beat up some of his servants. After awhile, he came back and harassed and beat up some more. Then another time, he wounded some and drove them off. Finally one day he caught the father's other son, and killed him, thinking to get the entire vineyard for himself. Luke 20:15

quote:

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"...What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?" (him in this instance)

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What will he do?

Hi Daniel

When a parent punishes a child do they stop loving them at that time?

What about family members that have turned someone over to the police for there crimes, do they not love the person? An example: the brother of Ted Kazinski, the Unibomber. Did he hate his brother and so turn Him in? No he still loved his brother but turned him in to protect others and see justice done.

What if you had an 18 year old son that was being a bad influence on younger siblings or abusive to other family members. And nothing you tried got him to change. You would likely tell him he had to move out. Why, because you hated him? I would hope not. But because of your love and concern for the rest of your family. Would you still love your son? I would hope so.

In the same way God's love will cause him to remove the finally impenetant from the Universe by destoying them to protect the rest.

Pastor Mike

Nice thoughts Mike. The Spirit of Prophesy points out that it is also in the best interest of the lost themselves that God allows them to be destroyed.

Some personal empirical evidence:

I first believed in the unconditional love of God when I became a for-real Christian (in the Methodist church) in 1978. Long before the middle 1990s that DanielW mentioned earlier. Then when I became an SDA in 1979 I still believed it. Then later I left the church for a number of years, and still believed it during that time. (I was one of those who left not over doctrine, but over personalities, behaviors, etc.) Now that I'm back I still believe it.

But not at any time has this belief pushed or drawn me towards universalism! Not that I can tell, anyway.