I must say that I am troubled by this discussion, just as I was equally troubled by the very same discussion over on TRO. After some pondering the topic I identified what I think is the root of the problem that has caused this perplexity. I believe that the problem is the limited scope of the premise of the topic. The end result has been a conflict of semantics. The word study is far too restricted and tends to diminish the ultimate message about God's love that those using the phrase "unconditional love" fully intend. The focus has been primarily on one aspect of the meaning of the word "unconditional", namely "without condition". It has not taken into account the full meaning of the word, nor some very illuminating synonyms that are frequently used in Scripture and by EGW to describe the quality of God's love.

The Oxford English dictionary defines the word as "Not limited by or subject to conditions or stipulations; absolute, unlimited, complete." The highlighted words illuminate what I believe is the root of the problem with this discussion. To suggest that God's love is not unconditional is to actually say that it is quite the opposite, that it is conditional, less than absolute (less than perfect or pure), limited, incomplete. The end result is to put a limit or restriction on God's love, to put it in a language box into which it clearly does not fit.

Pulling out my handy Roget's Thesaurus I find there are 3 basic categories of synonyms that flesh out the full meaning of the word "unconditional". They are words expressing "completeness, no qualification and no restriction." Under the first category are words such as: complete, thorough, exhaustive, intensive, comprehensive, all-encompassing, radical, pervasive, utter, absolute, total... Under the second: unqualified, unrestricted, unlimited, unhampered, unreserved, unequivocal, unmistakable, positive, absolute, definitive, complete, final... And under the third category: unconfined, uncircumscribed, unbounded, unmeasured, unlimited, limitless, perfect, full...

Now I think if we just broaden our word search to include even a few of these words that express the same or quite similar concepts as "unconditional" we will see that Scripture and EGW both use them frequently to describe God's love. Speaking of EGW, it seems clear to me that by her usage of the word "unconditional" most frequently in conjunction with "surrender" she is ascribing its full meaning, especially the concept of complete and absolute surrender. Certainly God's love cannot be described as conditional any more than our surrender can be conditional.

Tom

What's TRO?

I had trouble completely following your line of thought, but I believe I was thinking along the same lines as you are suggesting when I posted about unmerited love. I don't see a distinction between unmerited love and uncondional love, and the SOP does use the expression "unmerited love."

Daniel,

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Originally posted by danielw:
This doctrine of "unconditional love" was not generally known when i was growing up in the 1960-70s. It is possible some "scholars" were already promoting it, but it was not generally known until the middle 1990s or so.

It seems to have come largely from the "peace, love, sex, drugs, rock n roll" movement of the 1960s.

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This observation highlights a very significant flaw of the apparent initial premise of this topic that Ellen White never used 'unconditional love' as an expression of God's love, therefore it must be a false idea. Well, she did not use the phrase because it was not a phrase that was used by anyone in her time. As you pointed out, you had never heard it when you were growing up, for good reason. The phrase was first used by psychologist Eric Fromm who was merely a teenager when EGW died. The phrase was not linked to God's love until sometime later. Saying EGW never used a phrase that originated after her death proves little and largely ignores the parallel and synonymous concepts that she does frequently use.

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What is the end result of "unconditional love"? It is of course Universalism. This is the natural result of such teaching.

Just try googleing "unconditional love". Other than the movie and song of that title, it mostly brings up pagan, yoga, and homosexual sites...

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These extremist examples really do not reflect the ideas of anyone I know of who has described God's love as unconditional and unfortunately misdirect the fundamental concept presented by the phrase. The fact that new agers, universalists or homosexuals have distorted a valuable Christian idea does not make the idea false.

I continue to see that the danger of the direction of this topic is to put God in a box and somehow putting human parameters on His love. While understandably we can only vaguely understand His love in the familiar terms of human emotion and logic, in the end they are inadequate.

One of the consequences of that limiting approach is to assume that if God loves he would act and respond toward the objects of his love as we would do. And we further limit God by assuming that if his love is rejected that he would have to respond in familiar ways that humans do.

It is sadly a normal human reaction to such rejection to stop loving and to those who further act against us to retaliate, punish and get our revenge. We feel justified because the evil person got his due. We have a hard time feeling any compassion toward evil people. (How many of us actually felt sorry for Sadaam after he was dragged from his pathetic little hole in the ground?)

I think we need to step back and carefully consider our presuppositions and the ultimate direction this discussion is taking us. I am not so sure that it is leading us to a higher and more positive appreciation of God's love.

One thing that I see repeated is the presupposition that God's anger, wrath, hatred of evil are the same as we humanly would feel and act on such emotions. We naturally assume that hate is the antithesis or opposite of love. However just as John has pointed out, the true opposite of love is really apathy. Think about it. When we cease to care, become indifferent and feel nothing toward another, their life or death means nothing to us. We don't even feel anger toward such a person. Love is truly absent.

I cannot see God as apathetic, even toward Satan. Why? Because His love never ceases. Whatever actions He must take to end sin once and for all are not the actions of an apathetic God but are the actions of a God who cares more deeply than any of us can comprehend. An apathetic God would not take matters into his own hands, absorb the ultimate consequences of sin to save a pathetic little planet in his vast creation. He would step back and just let humanity ultimately destroy itself into extinction, no matter how long it would take. If he exercised hate and wrath as we humans know those emotions, he would have wiped out the devil, rather than just throwing him out of heaven. And if he hadn’t done that he would have turned Adam and Eve back into a lump of clay and started over.

Tom

Tom,

quote:

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Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
What's TRO?

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TRO is The Remant-Online forum from where I assume Daniel imported some of the ideas he is now putting forward in this topic on this forum. That forum had an extremely long-winded and very tedious "discussion" of this whole notion.

Tom

I have never seen any discussion on TRO of this subject.

"Unmerited" is not closely related to "unconditional".

Suppositions and conjectures are not what this subject is about.

This subject is about the worst error to creep into the church in the last 100 years. It has also been shown how this doctrine, or a derivative of it, will be THE major false doctrine in the last days.

Let's uplift the righteousness of God, showing his mercy and judgment. When Jesus came the Jews focused on the law to the exclusion of mercy, and here in the last days we are in danger of making the opposite mistake - focusing on mercy to the exclusion of the law.

Daniel W,

I'm not under any delusions about God saving everybody unconditionally; far from it. I reckon that somewhere along the lines of 95% of all people now living will end up in the lake of fire when all is said and done. Probably more than that. But God loves those people, and will continue to love them until their last moment of life, even as they're being destroyed because they refused to avail themselves of the remedy for sin.

Even in light of the facts of eternal damnation I believe the Bible and SOP teach that God loves unconditionally. He loves all of His created beings, no matter what they might do. Otherwise He wouldn't have set into motion the plan of salvation before man even took the first step back towards God, as Tom E. has mentioned.

But God won't unconditionally save those who have sinned, certainly not. There are strict conditions attached to the gift of eternal life for humans who have fallen. (The angels who fell are beyond saving.)

Yes, it is true that God loves us so much he gave us his only begotten son, even while we were sinners. Praise God!

So while his love is an attribute flowing out of himself, regardless of our response to it, it will finally be cut off from all those who reject him. This will happen soon at the close of probation for all living then, and has occurred to individuals thruout all history, starting when Lucifer made his final rejection of mercy in heaven.

Original Great Controversy:

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It was impossible for the plagues to be poured out while Jesus officiated in the Sanctuary; but as his work there is finished, as his intercession closes, there is nothing to stay the wrath of God, and it breaks with fury upon the shelterless head of the guilty sinner, who has slighted salvation, and hated reproof.
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The last tear for sinners had been shed, the last agonizing prayer offered, the last burden had been borne. The sweet voice of mercy was no more to invite them.

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The doctrine of unconditional love is diametrically opposed to this. It says there are no conditions to receiving the mercy of God. But those who "make no effort" for their own salvation, will be eternally lost. Follow the logic in this erroneous doctrine to its logical conclusion, and you'll see it is universalism in 21st century garb.

Let us be busy spreading the 3rd Angel's Message warning people to get ready for the Time of Trouble soon to come

Dan

If God's love is not uncondtional then it must be conditional and so must have conditions. What are these conditions? Are there any Bible or SOP references to conditions of God's love? Not conditions of salvation which we most likely all agree exist.

Mike Carner