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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION
[Re: Colin]
#106421
12/23/08 04:44 PM
12/23/08 04:44 PM
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Oops! Yes, Colin, you're correct, thank you. However, IMO the strongest argument she was post-lapsarian is the historical setting in which she wrote and lived. There, that's better!
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION
[Re: Colin]
#106422
12/23/08 05:53 PM
12/23/08 05:53 PM
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we are thus sinners by nature, not only by choice. Are we selfish by nature or by choice or both? Is it possible to be selfish and not be a sinner?
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION
[Re: Colin]
#106494
12/24/08 09:55 PM
12/24/08 09:55 PM
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Did He ever have an unregenerate nature to struggle against?
Was Christ's humanity of lower moral worth than Adam's humanity?
Is this "sinful nature" that "could not keep the law" the same "sinful nature" that Jesus had? Jesus did things that were expected of people who experienced rebirth, namely, He got baptized - "to fulfill all righteousness". He also inherited "sinful flesh", in spite of the fact it "flesh lusteth against the Spirit". Nevertheless, He was "not in the flesh, but in the Spirit". He reined in His fleshly lusts and kept them under the control and dominion of a sanctified will and mind, and He did it in the exact same way born again believers do it - by partaking of the divine nature and walking in the Spirit. None are contaminated by the unholy clamorings of fallen flesh while they are doing what Jesus did - abide in God! Listen: "Jesus revealed no qualities, and exercised no powers, that men may not have through faith in Him. His perfect humanity is that which all His followers may possess, if they will be in subjection to God as He was. {DA 664.4}
"And only those who live the life of Christ are His co-workers. If one sin is cherished in the soul, or one wrong practice retained in the life, the whole being is contaminated. The man becomes an instrument of unrighteousness. {DA 313.1}
"The sin of evilspeaking begins with the cherishing of evil thoughts. Guile includes impurity in all its forms. An impure thought tolerated, an unholy desire cherished, and the soul is contaminated, its integrity compromised. "Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." If we would not commit sin, we must shun its very beginnings. Every emotion and desire must be held in subjection to reason and conscience. Every unholy thought must be instantly repelled. {5T 177.1}
NOTE: none are contaminated by unholy thoughts, emotions, or desires so long as they are abiding in Jesus and cooperate with the agencies of heaven and hold such unholy thoughts, emotions, and desires in subjection to reason and conscience. Thus it was with Jesus! Ellen's argument is convincing: "For four thousand years the race had been decreasing in physical strength, in mental power, and in moral worth; and Christ took upon Him the infirmities of degenerate humanity. Only thus could He rescue man from the lowest depths of his degradation. {DA 117.1} Her argument does not in the least imply Jesus participated in sin like a sinner. "Assuming human nature" does not imply Jesus sinned any more than it implies humans are guilty of sinning the moment they inherit sinful flesh nature. Having sinful flesh is not the same thing as sinning. Sinning is a separate set of dynamics. Yes, people sin because they have a sinful flesh nature but having a sinful flesh nature is not a sin. God does not count us guilty of sin simply because we have a sinful flesh nature. Sin is the stuff of choice and character. Also, it is clear to me in the Bible and the SOP that sinful flesh tempts us from within. It would continue to do so even if evil angels were dead and gone. Sinful flesh is the seat and origin of all such internally generated temptations. Yes, we become aware of them through the sinless faculties of our mind but they originated in sinful flesh, which has, as it were, a mind and voice of its own. Sinful flesh produces unholy thoughts and feelings in the form of electrical impulses which are passed on along the normal lines of communication between the body and brain. The faculties of the mind convert these electrical impulses into conscious thoughts and feelings. The mind makes no attempt to pass moral judgment on the communications it receives and translates, that is the office and function of reason and conscience. The process by which we are tempted from within is neither sinful nor sinless - it just is. It is the same process by which we receive communications from God. It's merely a tool, like a computer, a telephone, or a television, and as such it is neither sinful nor sinless. It is merely the means God designed whereby we may receive messages internally and externally. What we do with those thoughts and feelings determines our guilt or innocence, our failure or success. Ellen addresses this aspect of mankind in the following passage: The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. The love of God must reign supreme; Christ must occupy an undivided throne. Our bodies are to be regarded as His purchased possession. The members of the body are to become the instruments of righteousness. {AH 127.2}
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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION
[Re: teresaq]
#106495
12/24/08 10:03 PM
12/24/08 10:03 PM
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T: i have a question.:) where in the bible does it say that Jesus struggled with, say, covetousness, or lustful thoughts, etc? what are the exact temptations Jesus suffered that are recorded in the scriptures?
M: Jesus was in "all points tempted like as we are". You name it and He was tempted with it either in particular or in principle. But not once did He ever waver between sin and righteousness; not once did He struggle with wanting to sin. He resolutely resisted temptation unto the honor and glory of God our Father. Satan and sinful flesh tempted Jesus at every step He took toward the cross but not once did He stammer, stumble, or yield. Indeed, it was repulsive to Him. He "suffered being tempted", that is, even the thought of digressing from the will of our holy, heavenly Father was disgusting to our sweet and sinless Savior. His sinless, sensitive soul recoiled at even the mere mention of misrepresenting God. So it may be with us if we will abide in Jesus in the same way He abided in the Father.
T: well thank you but i think the 3 recorded temptations might give us an understanding.
Satan summons all his forces and throws his whole power into the combat. Why is it that he meets with no greater resistance? Why are the soldiers of Christ so sleepy and indifferent? Because they have so little real connection with Christ; because they are so destitute of His Spirit. Sin is not to them repulsive and abhorrent, as it was to their Master..... {GC 507.3}
if sin was repulsive to Jesus how could it be a temptation? i am not tempted by what i find repulsive. i am tempted by what i find attractive. Which one of the three temptations you mentioned above did Jesus find attractive?
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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION
[Re: Mountain Man]
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12/25/08 01:22 AM
12/25/08 01:22 AM
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T: i have a question.:) where in the bible does it say that Jesus struggled with, say, covetousness, or lustful thoughts, etc? what are the exact temptations Jesus suffered that are recorded in the scriptures?
M: Jesus was in "all points tempted like as we are". You name it and He was tempted with it either in particular or in principle. But not once did He ever waver between sin and righteousness; not once did He struggle with wanting to sin. He resolutely resisted temptation unto the honor and glory of God our Father. Satan and sinful flesh tempted Jesus at every step He took toward the cross but not once did He stammer, stumble, or yield. Indeed, it was repulsive to Him. He "suffered being tempted", that is, even the thought of digressing from the will of our holy, heavenly Father was disgusting to our sweet and sinless Savior. His sinless, sensitive soul recoiled at even the mere mention of misrepresenting God. So it may be with us if we will abide in Jesus in the same way He abided in the Father.
T: well thank you but i think the 3 recorded temptations might give us an understanding.
Satan summons all his forces and throws his whole power into the combat. Why is it that he meets with no greater resistance? Why are the soldiers of Christ so sleepy and indifferent? Because they have so little real connection with Christ; because they are so destitute of His Spirit. Sin is not to them repulsive and abhorrent, as it was to their Master..... {GC 507.3}
if sin was repulsive to Jesus how could it be a temptation? i am not tempted by what i find repulsive. i am tempted by what i find attractive. reflecting on the first temptation Christ suffered, turning the stones into bread to relieve His hunger, i can understand as being a massive temptation. He could do that....i cant..... but i can be tempted to eat/put in my mounth what is not good for me. Jesus was starving, He had legitimate reason to turn the stones into bread. eve was not starving... ive never suffered the hunger Jesus has... It is impossible to take in the depth and the force of these temptations unless the Lord shall bring man where He can open these scenes before him by a revelation of the matter, and then it can only be but partially comprehended. Satan's assaults were prepared for the circumstances in accordance with the exalted character with which he had to deal. If he [could] gain the victory in the first temptation, he would secure Him on all the rest. Satan had never aimed his darts at so strong a mark. {16MR 181.2}
Our Lord's trial and test and proving shows that He could yield to these temptations, else the battle was all a farce. But He did not yield to the solicitude of the enemy, thus evidencing that the human nature of man, united with the divine nature by faith, may be strong and withstand Satan's temptations. {16MR 181.3}
Christ's perfect humanity is the same that man may have through connection with Christ. As God, Christ could not be tempted any more than He was not tempted from His allegiance in heaven. But as Christ humbled Himself to the nature of man, He could be tempted. He had not taken on Him even the nature of the angels, but humanity, perfectly identical with our own nature, except without the taint of sin. A human body, a human mind, with all the peculiar properties, He was bone, brain, and muscle. A man of our flesh, He was compassed with the weakness of humanity. The circumstances of His life were of that character that He was exposed to all the inconveniences that belong to men, not in wealth, not in ease, but in poverty and want and humiliation. He breathed the very air man must breathe. He trod our earth as man. He had reason, conscience, memory, will, and affections of the human soul which was united with His divine nature. {16MR 181.4}
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION
[Re: Tom]
#106513
12/25/08 04:54 AM
12/25/08 04:54 AM
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One of the interesting temptations is the last one. Satan showed Jesus the kingdoms of the world. The SOP tells us that Christ immediately turned His head away. It's interesting that the kingdoms of this world would hold any appeal to Christ, yet He turned His head away, lest He be tempted. Why? Because He took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature, with its tendencies. He had to keep that nature in check, just like we must. He took Jesus up into a high mountain and showed him the kingdoms of the world, spread out in a panoramic view before his eyes. The sunlight lay on templed cities, marble palaces, fruitful fields and vineyards, gilding the dark cedars of Lebanon and the blue waters of Galilee. The eyes of Jesus, so lately greeted by gloom and desolation, gazed upon a scene of unsurpassed loveliness and prosperity. Then the tempter's voice was heard: "All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them; for that is delivered unto me, and to whomsoever I will, I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine." {2SP 95.2}
Satan brought all his strength to bear upon this last inducement, for upon the result of this effort depended his destiny. He claimed the world as his dominion and himself to be the Prince of the power of the air. He promised to put Christ in possession of all the kingdoms without suffering or peril, if he would make one concession, and that was to acknowledge Satan his superior, and pay him homage. This last temptation was designed to be the most alluring of all. Christ's life was one of sorrow, hardship, and conflict. Poverty and privation attended him; even the beasts and the birds had their homes, but the Son of Man had not where to lay his head. Homeless and friendless as he was, there was offered him the mighty kingdoms of the world and the glory of them for a single consideration. {2SP 95.3}
The eyes of Jesus rested for a moment upon the scene before him; he then turned resolutely from it, refusing to dally with the tempter by even looking upon the enchanting prospect he had presented to him; but when Satan solicited his homage, Christ's divine indignation was aroused, and he could no longer tolerate his blasphemous assumption, or even permit him to remain in his presence. He exercised his divine authority, and commanded Satan to desist, saying, "Get thee hence, Satan; for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." {2SP 96.1} It is impossible to take in the depth and the force of these temptations unless the Lord shall bring man where He can open these scenes before him by a revelation of the matter, and then it can only be but partially comprehended. Satan's assaults were prepared for the circumstances in accordance with the exalted character with which he had to deal. If he [could] gain the victory in the first temptation, he would secure Him on all the rest. Satan had never aimed his darts at so strong a mark. {16MR 181.2}
Our Lord's trial and test and proving shows that He could yield to these temptations, else the battle was all a farce. But He did not yield to the solicitude of the enemy, thus evidencing that the human nature of man, united with the divine nature by faith, may be strong and withstand Satan's temptations. {16MR 181.3}
Christ's perfect humanity is the same that man may have through connection with Christ. As God, Christ could not be tempted any more than He was not tempted from His allegiance in heaven. But as Christ humbled Himself to the nature of man, He could be tempted. He had not taken on Him even the nature of the angels, but humanity, perfectly identical with our own nature, except without the taint of sin. A human body, a human mind, with all the peculiar properties, He was bone, brain, and muscle. A man of our flesh, He was compassed with the weakness of humanity. The circumstances of His life were of that character that He was exposed to all the inconveniences that belong to men, not in wealth, not in ease, but in poverty and want and humiliation. He breathed the very air man must breathe. He trod our earth as man. He had reason, conscience, memory, will, and affections of the human soul which was united with His divine nature. {16MR 181.4} if Jesus had not been willing to come to this earth as a human being, but little lower than the angels, yet how much lower than absolute, all powerful God, to not just live as one of us, but to live as the poorest of us, where would we be? then on top of that, to suffer such strong, degrading temptations that He might have failed on....... to have never sinned even as a child, when being taunted....but to go even further than that and to love those who taunted Him..... what if He had decided He didnt want to suffer all that? what if, after He got here, He had decided we werent worth it after all? merry christmas to all.
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION
[Re: teresaq]
#106515
12/25/08 05:46 AM
12/25/08 05:46 AM
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Wonderful thoughts, teresaq. Brings this to mind: Three times has He uttered that prayer. Three times has humanity shrunk from the last, crowning sacrifice. But now the history of the human race comes up before the world's Redeemer. He sees that the transgressors of the law, if left to themselves, must perish. He sees the helplessness of man. He sees the power of sin. The woes and lamentations of a doomed world rise before Him. He beholds its impending fate, and His decision is made. He will save man at any cost to Himself.
He accepts His baptism of blood, that through Him perishing millions may gain everlasting life. He has left the courts of heaven, where all is purity, happiness, and glory, to save the one lost sheep, the one world that has fallen by transgression. And He will not turn from His mission. He will become the propitiation of a race that has willed to sin. His prayer now breathes only submission: "If this cup may not pass away from Me, except I drink it, Thy will be done."
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION
[Re: Tom]
#106603
12/27/08 06:38 PM
12/27/08 06:38 PM
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M: Which one of the three temptations you mentioned above did Jesus find attractive?
T: reflecting on the first temptation Christ suffered, turning the stones into bread to relieve His hunger, i can understand as being a massive temptation. "If Thou be the Son of God." Did the first temptation involve alleviating hunger? Or, did it have to do with doubting His messianic credentials and doing something to prove He is the Messiah? I have the following testimony in mind: Though he appears as an angel of light, these first words betray his character. "If Thou be the Son of God." Here is the insinuation of distrust. Should Jesus do what Satan suggests, it would be an acceptance of the doubt. The tempter plans to overthrow Christ by the same means that were so successful with the human race in the beginning. How artfully had Satan approached Eve in Eden! "Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?" Gen 3:1. Thus far the tempter's words were truth; but in his manner of speaking them there was a disguised contempt for the words of God. There was a covert negative, a doubt of the divine truthfulness. Satan sought to instill into the mind of Eve the thought that God would not do as He had said; that the withholding of such beautiful fruit was a contradiction of His love and compassion for man. So now the tempter seeks to inspire Christ with his own sentiments. "If Thou be the Son of God." The words rankle with bitterness in his mind. In the tones of his voice is an expression of utter incredulity. Would God treat His own Son thus? Would He leave Him in the desert with wild beasts, without food, without companions, without comfort? He insinuates that God never meant His Son to be in such a state as this. "If Thou be the Son of God," show Thy power by relieving Thyself of this pressing hunger. Command that this stone be made bread. {DA 118.3}
The words from heaven, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased" (Matt. 3:17), were still sounding in the ears of Satan. But he was determined to make Christ disbelieve this testimony. The word of God was Christ's assurance of His divine mission. He had come to live as a man among men, and it was the word that declared His connection with heaven. It was Satan's purpose to cause Him to doubt that word. If Christ's confidence in God could be shaken, Satan knew that the victory in the whole controversy would be his. He could overcome Jesus. He hoped that under the force of despondency and extreme hunger, Christ would lose faith in His Father, and work a miracle in His own behalf. Had He done this, the plan of salvation would have been broken. {DA 119.1} The point is - Jesus was tempted in all points like we are in spite of the fact they were repulsive to Him. Satan and sinful flesh tempted Jesus at every step, and at every step He resolutely resisted them by abiding in the Father. So it will be with us while we are abiding in the Jesus. I like How Ellen put it: Genuine faith will be manifested in good works; for good works are the fruits of faith. As God works in the heart, and man surrenders his will to God, and cooperates with God, he works out in the life what God works in by the Holy Spirit, and there is harmony between the purpose of the heart and the practice of the life. Every sin must be renounced as the hateful thing that crucified the Lord of life and glory, and the believer must have a progressive experience by continually doing the works of Christ. It is by continual surrender of the will, by continual obedience, that the blessing of justification is retained. {NL 28.1}
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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION
[Re: Mountain Man]
#106619
12/27/08 09:36 PM
12/27/08 09:36 PM
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" If Thou be the Son of God." Did the first temptation involve alleviating hunger? Or, did it have to do with doubting His messianic credentials and doing something to prove He is the Messiah? I have the following testimony in mind: there may be some validity in your point, but according to the bible and egw the first temptation of Christ had to do with appetite. satan tried to instigate Jesus to use His divine powers to alleviate, and avoid, His suffering, to fail on the issue of appetite. With Christ, as with the holy pair in Eden, appetite was the ground of the first great temptation. Just where the ruin began, the work of our redemption must begin. As by the indulgence of appetite Adam fell, so by the denial of appetite Christ must overcome. "And when He had fasted forty days and forty nights, He was afterward an hungred. And when the tempter came to Him, he said, If Thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. But He answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." {DA 117.3} the temptations presented to Jesus seem to be about avoiding suffering on our account.
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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