Kland, yes, I see Jesus doing things in the OT that He didn't do while He was here in the flesh. For example, in the OT He created a planet inhabited with plants, animals and people. He also employed the forces of nature and caused a wolrd-wide flood. He commanded Moses to stone people to death. Etc, etc, etc. Jesus did none of these things while here in the flesh.

What is it exactly about my summary of your view do you disagree with? I based it on things you posted here and elsewhere. Also, what about it do you agree with?


On this we disagree. Please, in the future, do not quote this passage as if your view is right and mine is wrong and then try to prove something based on it. It is obvious Jesus did not reveal everything there is to know about God. He said so Himself.


Are you suggesting we must look at each case individually to determine what God's "will and purpose" is, that one-size-fits-all does not apply?


Can full-cup sinners repent and be saved after God employs the "withdraw and permit" method of killing them?


Please include everything I said about it.


God employs His enemies and the forces of nature to punish full-cup sinners. He manages the outcome of their choices to ensure a favorable end of the GC. Nothing is left to chance or Satan or sinners.

You have yet to explain why. Will you ever?


On this we disagree.


That's the problem with leaving out aspects of the discussion.


Thank you for answering my question.


I don't care one iota about the old timers you named above. Mentioning their names mean nothing to me. Nor do I believe God causes people to make evil choices or to evil things. What I do believe is that God manages the outcome of the choices they make to ensure the GC ends favorably. He establishes and enforces limits beyond which His enemies cannot pass.


I don't understand your answer. Do you believe the word "jealous" means something different in the case of God?


Thank you for answering my question.


Thank you for answering my question.


Interesting.


Interesting.


You tell me.


Interesting.


I agree.


God establishes and enforces limits beyond which His enemies cannot go. Did the way they die exceed those limits?


Everyone dies. Did they die in a way that exceeded His limits?


Why didn't God ensure that they (the people named above) died according to His "will and purpose"? Or, did He? Did He intend for them to die some other way? He intend for them to die of natural causes?

Why?

Why, when He had good reason and was urged by others, did He not maim, kill, and torture men, women, and children?

You keep bringing up creation. He finished and rested. Why would you bring that up that He didn't create more -- that doesn't make sense to bring that up.

The world had already been flooded by removing His protection. Since the water had already reached its lowest point (the ocean), it would not flood again -- just like He promised. I don't know why you would you bring that up, either.

I mean, He didn't talk to Adam and Eve, either. But wouldn't you think that is non relevant to the topic being discussed?


But, why do you not think there was good reason for Him to stone people? In fact, He quite contradicted that idea.


WHY?


We're not talking about specific instances any more than all specific instances need be explicitly detailed in order to apply similar instances to His character. If Jesus was to represent His character, why do you see the apparent contradiction (contradiction based upon your responses)?

Your mindset. You view God as destroying and doing destructive things. I read in the SOP that Satan is the destroyer and the Lord is the restorer. I would not say something like, "God employs the 'withdraw and permit' method of causing death and destruction." I would say that others cause God to withdraw His protection, and then calamity follows. For example:



Instead of "Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will" other unfortunate results could be included.



I agree that the angels misunderstood God's intentions, and were not expecting Christ to come.



I'll agree with this request if you'll agree not to quote the following passage as if your view were right:





No, I'm not suggesting this. To even address this, one would need to address what God's "will and purpose" is. In a general sense, God's will and purpose is that all repent and be saved. Also in a general sense, God's purpose is to bring an end to sin. If one accepts this latter principle for what God's "will and purpose" is, I would agree that a one-size-fits-all approach would work. That is, God works in such a way as to bring sin to an end as quickly as possible.



I'm asking you're disagreeing with. You shouldn't need to see everything you've written on this to know what you disagree with, I wouldn't think. If you think this is necessary, you can do this task.



You seem to have an Augustinian perspective. Let me ask a simple question to clarify this. Do you believe that whenever anything happens, it happens because it is God's will that the given thing should happen? (By "God's will" here, I do not mean "God's permissive will").

To clarify, I would agree that God permits certain things to happen. But I believe there are things which happen which are contrary to God's will, meaning that He would prefer that something else happened than what He permits to happen.

I'm sent you many pages in reference to this question. You don't agree with the explanation, which is your prerogative, but you needn't suggest no explanation has been suggested.



MM, I don't recall any apology. If you've made an apology, I'd like to hear it. You can repeat it from memory; that would be fine.



A famous quote says:



Regarding what you say you believe, the last two sentences, I don't know anybody (i.e. any believer) who doesn't believe these things.



You asked, "Does this mean you believe God sins every time He manifests jealousy?" Since God never sins, the conclusion is moot. This is a fundamental principle of logic.

"Jealous" has different meanings. For example, I can say I jealously guard my time. This has a similar meaning to what we see in Scripture where it says God is jealous.



Please return the favor. How could this not be the case?



You asked the question, MM! Why did you ask it? Do you think it's possible Satan could exceed the limits established by God? (not that you think this does happen, but that it could happen)



He intended that they repent and live. God is not willing that any should perish but come to a knowledge of the truth.

I don't see how we can talk about it without naming and comparing specific instances. Either Jesus demonstrated every aspect of God's kingdom and character there is to know or He didn't. What do you believe? Did He or didn't He? I believe it is obvious He didn't.

Jesus did indeed give the order for someone without sin to cast the first stone at the women caught in the act of adultery. He did not do it Himself because the law of Moses specified that the person who caught them was supposed to be the first one to cast a stone. However, I do not believe it was in His heart to do so in this specific case. He understood the situation perfectly, and the circumstances did not lend themselves to capital punishment. Besides, Roman law disallowed it.

God does not want sinners to make sinful choices. Nor does He sit around hoping they do so that He can punish them. He does not delight in punishing sinners.

In reference to 107592

Tom, you have never explained why God commanded Moses to kill sinners. Never!

I apologized for assuming you think 3SG 80 describes Satan, instead of God, using the forces of nature to cause death and destruction.

The last question was in reference to Peter, Paul, John, and Jesus. Your answer seems off topic.

1.Regarding God's commanding Moses to kill sinners, I sent many pages dealing with the father/hunter, and stated I could not present the concept more clearly than the author did there.

2.Thank you for 3SG 80 explanation.

3.Regarding last question, it is not God's will that people be killed. The people you listed were killed because evil being inspired (e.g. angels) or evil beings killed them(men). God would have preferred that the evil men repented in response to the preaching if His messengers as opposed to killing them.