1. The son knew his father's will very well and chose to hunt anyhow. This does not depict the Jews. They had no idea what to do in the cases of the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer so they asked Moses to inquire of God. Why didn't God take the opportunity to explain His will? Or, did He?

2. You are welcome.

3. Are you saying it was not God's will and purpose for Jesus to die the way He did? And, are you implying He wanted the others to die of natural causes instead?

1.The purpose of the father/hunter analogy is to illustrate how the counsel of someone taken out of context can give a false impression. In the case of the hunter, the false impression is that the father approves of hunting. In the case of God, the false impression is that God approves of killing.

In Christ we see what God's true views are, detached from the constraints the COI imposed. We see how Christ acted when given the opportunity to stone one guilty of breaking the law of Moses. Your insinuation that Christ did not stone the woman because the Israelites were under Roman rule has a hollow ring.



On another occasion, Christ was urged to destroy, and He responded in a similar manner:



When we see God revealing His character unshackled as the father in the hunter story was, we see Him consistently acting and counseling in a non-violent way. Christ never suggested using force or killing someone as the way to solve a problem.

3.I originally spoke in terms of Peter and other disciple's deaths. I said that it was not God's will and purpose that they die, but that evil being inspired and caused their death. God would rather that they repent. The case of of Jesus is more involved, since our redemption is involved, although similar principles apply. If you wish to pursue this further, that's fine, but please separate questions regarding Jesus' death from those involving Peter or other disciples.

I guess it would follow since you apply only a specific application to the following although I don't know under what specific conditions:
God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. (GC 35-37)

I know some evolutionists who reject the Bible because they don't know who Cain married. Since the Bible doesn't specifically say Adam and Eve had other children near Cain's age, it didn't happen. Even though a man an woman lived almost a thousand years, since the Bible doesn't specifically say they had sex more than at most three times (if even then), then it didn't happen.


Perhaps you could do a search in Ellen White's writings for the phrase, "general principles". Here's one to get you started:

This doesn't answer my question why God commanded Moses to kill the sinners.


But the apostles named above did die. Are you saying God's will and purpose was not served in the way they died? If so, did His enemies exceed His limits? If not, how did God intend for them to die? Did God intervene and ensure they died in a way He was willing to permit? Or, did they die in a way differently than He was willing to permit?

PS - I'll be away on assignment until 5 Feb.

I think it does. Let's get a third opinion. kland, what do you think?



If you're talking about the fact that they died, no, it wasn't God's will that those who heard them preached kill them. His will was that they respond to their preaching and repent.



You're asking if those who killed Peter and the others did something which God did not permit? This looks to be what you're asking, but this is clearly a pointless question. Or did I misunderstand your question?



Of old age, peacefully.



No.



You're asking if they died in some different way than they died? I don't understand this question.

Well, that's what I've been saying and also have been saying that you've been saying. Which is exactly what MM has been rejecting as having never been explained. And some of my first comments addressed the concept which were also rejected.

But, I think MM is wanting something more specific. Perhaps something from Ellen White along the lines of:
Mountain Man, this is for you. The general principle of the hunter story fits with God/Jesus.

Maybe.

But then, maybe it wouldn't answer it for him. I can hardly wait for his answer to my above comment. It seems he previously responded that the location of Jesus determines His character. Then in the punish thread, his last comments appeared more definitely to support that viewpoint. It is interesting he used the phrase, "every aspect", but does seem to imply "every instance".

MM, I await your reply when you get back. What differences do you see between aspect and instance or general principle and specific instance?

I'm going to piggy back on this a bit. I'm going to repeat something I've brought up a number of times, but I don't I've done so since kland has been here. It has to do with two approaches when can be taken to understanding the Scripture texts where God does "bad" things. By "bad" I mean things we wouldn't ordinarily associate with God, given how Jesus Christ revealed Him to be, such as violent, destructive, killing things.

One approach is to consider every incident on a case by case basis. The other approach is to look for general principles which can be applied to any case.

Consider, for example, God's sending fiery serpents upon the Israelites. From the SOP, we learn that the serpents had always been there, but God withdrew His protection. How would we understand this incident apart from the SOP? If we use a case by case approach, we would understand the incident incorrectly, since it says God sent these creatures upon the Israelites. Using a general principle approach, we would get it right, even without the SOP.

Kland, I didn't see where you addressed the following question:

Either Jesus (while here) demonstrated every aspect of God's kingdom and character there is to know or He didn't. What do you believe? Did He or didn't He?

In what way was God shackled when He commanded Moses to kill those two guys? Was Jesus ever shackled in this way when He was here, that is, did He ever command anyone to kill a sinner?


So, yes, you are saying God's will and purpose was not served in the way they died. Why, then, did they die in the way they did? Did Satan or sinners pass the boundaries established by God? Did they do something prohibited by God? Or, did God allow them to die in the way they did, that is, He did not intervene because it was within His established limits?