I think you are getting close to where we are having problems of understanding each other. Would you be saying that Ellen White, in the above quote, does not mean it to apply in all situations?

I couldn't help noticing that you left out an important part of my original post. Here it is again for your convenience:


I hope this answers your question. If not, please explain what you're looking for. Thank you.

I don’t see how this passage from DA 22 explains why God commanded Moses to kill the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer. Who “misunderstood” God’s command to kill those two guys? Please explain why the Bible says God “commanded” Moses to kill them. And, please explain why God commanded Moses to kill them. Thank you. BTW, I understand that your humane hunter story explains that God ran the risk of being misunderstood when He commanded Moses to kill sinners, but what your story doesn’t explain is why God commanded Moses to kill sinners.


I agree that God is omnipotent and that the only things that happen are things He allows. IOW, neither evil angels nor evil men can do something to anyone or anything that exceeds what God is willing to allow. The question is – Why does God allow evil angels and evil men to do some evil things but not other evil things? And, how does He prevent them from exceeding His established limits and boundaries without violating their freedoms? What criteria does He use to establish His limits and boundaries?


Yes, I will answer your questions. But please do me a favor and reword them after you answer my original questions. Thank you.


Thank you for answering my questions.


I realize you find this hard to believe but I wasn’t 100% certain what you believe about it. I didn’t want you to rebuke me for assuming something. Hopefully you can appreciate me taking the safer path. Now I know what you believe, namely, God is omnipotent and nothing happens that He does not allow. I agree.

Now that I know what you believe about this aspect of the issue I would like to know what you believe in relation to the questions I asked above: Why does God allow evil angels and evil men to do some evil things but not other evil things? And, how does He prevent them from exceeding His established limits and boundaries without violating their freedoms? What criteria does He use to establish His limits and boundaries?

M: Yes, I agree with you that Jesus never commanded or commissioned people to kill sinners. Based on this insight are you telling me God did not command Moses to kill sinners? If so, do you think the following passages were mistranslated:...

T: I'm not sure that "mistranslated" would be the best way of putting it. "Misunderstood" I think is a better way of putting it. Before Christ came, God was greatly misunderstood. The following explains the principle I have in mind: (EGW quote)

M:I don’t see how this passage from DA 22 explains why God commanded Moses to kill the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer.[/quote]

It wasn't intended to. I quoted it in reference to God's being misunderstood, as I stated.



MM, it looks like your missing my point. I'd suggest rereading the post. I didn't offer an explanation as to the incident, but was discussing the principle involved of considering Christ as a complete revelation of God as opposed to one revelation among many.



This is what I think you're misunderstanding. You agree that Christ never commanded anyone to kill during His earthly mission, while He was supposed to be fully revealing God's character. Your view seems to be that Christ's revelation was not complete, that there were certain things about God that were left out, and as proof of this you cite things from the OT. I'm suggesting an alternative explanation is that the events of the OT are being misunderstood, and in reality God in the OT did not act differently than Christ did during His earthly mission, but instead what has happened is that God's actions in the OT have been misunderstood.



These are very deep questions. If you wish to discuss these, I'd suggest a new thread. I don't know of any quick answers to these.



Here are the questions I've been asking, still unanswered:



You've asked me to reword these, but I don't see why this should be requested, as these seem to be very, very clear. For example, the question "How could anything happen which God did not permit?" seems to be as well phrased as possible. I don't know how I could improve it.

Regarding the questions you're asking, they look the same as what you asked above, which I would answer the same way, which is that these are deep questions, meriting their own thread IMO, and not questions that can be simply answered (but certainly worth exploring).

What about Christ's teachings about the hell of fire, and His statement that we should not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul, but should rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell?

I think these statements are often misunderstood. Also I think the cursing of the fig tree and the cleansing of the temple are other incidents widely misunderstood.

These statements show that, although this didn't happen during Christ's ministry, the day would come when the death of sinners would happen, and the universe would be free from sin - and this was an aspect of God's character revealed by Christ. This, however, must be harmonized with other texts which reveal that God is love; so it will happen, but in mercy to both the sinner and the rest of the universe.

Nope.

The reason I left part of your post was that it was not relevant to the issue at hand.

That issue is, in regard to the following quote,
Would you be saying that Ellen White does not mean it to apply in all situations? If that is indeed what you are attempting to say, what evidence in context of the quotation would indicate as such?

As I have said before in a general aspect, though I must admit I did not say it in this specific instance, so I will specifically say it here for your benefit. In your quote, I can say "punishment" means different than what you think, same as destroy and what God is or is not directly doing just as Tom and I have explained numerous times which you refuse to accept as being explained. Now, you may not agree, but I am saying it.

In like manner, would you say when one comes across a most difficult statement such as,
"God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression",
would you mean to say it means God does stand as executioner, that not standing as executioner really means He does stand as executioner?

Your belief about Jesus being a full and complete revelation of all there is to know about God’s character and kingdom should not prevent you from answering my question. Here it is again:

Please explain why God commanded Moses to kill the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer. Thank you.


Again, your belief about Jesus being a full and complete revelation of all there is to know about God’s character and kingdom should not prevent you from answering my question. Here it is again:

Please explain why God commanded Moses to kill the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer. Thank you.


Okay.


1. Have Satan or sinners ever passed the boundaries established by God which regulate what they can and cannot do to other people? It would be possible if God permitted it, which I do not believe He ever has.
2. Same answer.
3. It can’t because He wouldn’t allow it.

What do these insights tell us about God? I believe they help us understand that God is in control, that nothing happens by accident, that everything is carefully orchestrated by God. Evil angels and evil men are free to choose as they please, but God actively ensures that the outcome of their choices do not in any way derail His goals and purposes for the GC. He intervenes in ways that prevent the GC from playing out unfairly for the saints or ending unfavorably for Him.

I believe it is relevant.


Here is the immediate context:

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1} END QUOTE

God is not an executioner in the following sense:

Erelong sentence of condemnation was passed upon him. He was led out to the same spot upon which Huss had yielded up his life. He went singing on his way, his countenance lighted up with joy and peace. His gaze was fixed upon Christ, and to him death had lost its terrors. When the executioner, about to kindle the pile, stepped behind him, the martyr exclaimed: "Come forward boldly; apply the fire before my face. Had I been afraid, I should not be here." {GC 114.8} END QUOTE

Instead, God executes justice and judgment in the following manner:

The Lord still works in a similar manner to glorify His name by bringing men to acknowledge His justice. When those who profess to love Him complain of His providence, despise His promises, and, yielding to temptation, unite with evil angels to defeat the purposes of God, the Lord often so overrules circumstances as to bring these persons where, though they may have no real repentance, they will be convinced of their sin and will be constrained to acknowledge the wickedness of their course and the justice and goodness of God in His dealings with them. It is thus that God sets counteragencies at work to make manifest the works of darkness. And though the spirit which prompted to the evil course is not radically changed, confessions are made that vindicate the honor of God and justify His faithful reprovers, who have been opposed and misrepresented. Thus it will be when the wrath of God shall be finally poured out. When "the Lord cometh with ten thousand of His saints, to execute judgment upon all," He will also "convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds." Jude 14, 15. Every sinner will be brought to see and acknowledge the justice of his condemnation. {PP 393.1}

The forbearance that God has exercised toward the wicked, emboldens men in transgression; but their punishment will be none the less certain and terrible for being long delayed. "The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act." Isaiah 28:21. To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live." Ezekiel 33:11. The Lord is "merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, . . . forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin." Yet He will "by no means clear the guilty." Exodus 34:6, 7. While He does not delight in vengeance, He will execute judgment upon the transgressors of His law. He is forced to do this, to preserve the inhabitants of the earth from utter depravity and ruin. In order to save some He must cut off those who have become hardened in sin. "The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked." Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. And the very fact of His reluctance to execute justice testifies to the enormity of the sins that call forth His judgments and to the severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor. {PP 628.1}


I don't understand what you're saying here.


No.