When does God do this? He certainly doesn't do it the first time someone sins; otherwise, they would die at a very early age. Under what conditions does God finally decide to withdraw His protection and permit sinners to reap what they have sown?

MM, I recall in the past you had basically dismissed the GC quote.

Why don't you just tell us what idea you think Ellen White was trying to get across?

Sometimes, in trying to understand such a difficult passage, it could be helpful to take the opposite approach. Maybe you could answer it by saying how God WOULD stand towards the sinner as an executioner. If what acts you are suggesting God directly causing is not standing as an executioner, what would be?

Did I say God was shackled? Anyway, I've addressed this several times in pointing out that God was dealing with an ignorant and backward people. The father/hunter analogy also dealt with this issue.

Regarding Jesus viz a viz the God of the OT, Jesus was here in the flesh among us, so it was easier for God to be revealed in a way that would be less likely to be misunderstood. Jesus said, "When you've seen Me, you've seen the Father."



No, I didn't say that. What I said is right above your response here. What I said is what I said. To clarify, God can work through evil things to accomplish His will. That doesn't mean God willed for the evil thing to happen.

The way you phrased things above is very unclear. God's will and purpose could be served by means of what God accomplished in spite of some evil which He permits.



As I stated, because evil beings so desired and acted.



What do you mean? How would that be possible?



Same question.



How could anything happen which God did not permit?

What's the point to these questions, MM?

Kland, the following quote does not explain all the different ways and methods God has employed over the years to punish sinners.

"God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown."

Compare this insight with the following insights:

A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}

Tom, did Jesus ever command someone to kill a sinner while He was here in the flesh? If not, why not?

PS - I'm glad we agree nothing happens on this planet without God's permission.

Jesus was urged to do so. He reacted by saying, "You know not of what spirit you are."

Clearly Jesus never commanded someone to kill a sinner. Regarding why not, it would have been contrary to the principles which He espoused.



First of all, this isn't what you said. Second of all, I didn't agree with you on anything. Thirdly, you didn't answer my questions, which I'm repeating here:

Tom, if Jesus never commanded someone to kill a sinner while here in the flesh, how can you say He demonstrated everything there is to know about God? I asked this question in light of the fact God commanded Moses to kill sinners.

Also, you wrote, "How could anything happen which God did not permit?" Is your answer to this question the same as mine, namely, nothing happens without God's permission.

What is the point? I'm trying understand what you believe about God as it relates to how and why people (saints and sinners) suffer and die.

Well, this has been my point all along. I first started pointed this out a couple of years ago. What I argued was that if there is an apparent disagreement between what Jesus Christ revealed and what we see revealed of God in the OT, we should set aside our difficulties in favor of the revelation of Jesus Christ. That is, what Jesus Christ revealed should be the foundation, the bedrock, of what we believe about God. All other revelations of God should be filtered by that revelation.

Jesus said that what He heard of the Father is what He said, and what He saw of the Father is what He did. Where did He hear and see the Father's work? From the Scriptures. Evidently Jesus Christ saw something different than we do. He was able to rightly interpret the Scriptures, and see God how He really is, something even holy angels could not fully do.

So back to your question with Moses. What you do is take the principle that Jesus Christ is a full revelation of God, that all that we can know of God was revealed by Him, and throw that idea out the window. You *supplement* your knowledge of what Jesus revealed with other knowledge, and form a picture of God which is part what Jesus revealed, and part other stuff. What I'm suggesting is rather than taking this approach that a better approach is to subjugate all other revelation of God to the revelation of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is not simply one revelation among others, on equal footing with other revelation, but is the highest, clearest, and best revelation of God.

So if you ask the question, "Where did Jesus do such and such during His earthly mission which we see God doing in the OT" and can't find Him doing such, rather than reaching the conclusion that Jesus Christ's revelation of God is lacking, a better conclusion would be that our understanding of what God was doing in the OT is what's lacking.



Is this a question? This sentence starts with the word "Is," which indicates it is, but there's no question mark at the end, so it's not clear to me whether you are asserting something or asking something.

I asked you several questions, which you didn't answer. Instead you responded that I was agreeing with you. I wasn't agreeing with you, but asking you questions, which you didn't answer. I pointed this out to you, and asked the questions again. I'm now asking a third time:





How does asking questions which you already know the answer to help you do this? For example, you ask:



Surely you know this is impossible, don't you?

Yes, I agree with you that Jesus never commanded or commissioned people to kill sinners. Based on this insight are you telling me God did not command Moses to kill sinners? If so, do you think the following passages were mistranslated?

Leviticus
24:23 And Moses spake to the children of Israel, that they should bring forth him that had cursed out of the camp, and stone him with stones. And the children of Israel did as the LORD commanded Moses.

Numbers
15:36 And all the congregation brought him {the Sabbath-breaker} without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.


Yes, it was a question. Sorry for the confusion. I should have included a question mark. My bad. I am still interested in your answer if you are willing to answer my question.


I've recreated the entire volley relating to our comments and questions regarding this point. I asked 3 questions to which you asked 5 additional questions. When I attempted to find common ground you became indignant and made it clear you didn't agree with any of the questions I posed.

So, let's start over. Instead of asking questions in response to my questions, please consider simply answering my questions first and then try following them up with questions of your own. Does that sound fair to you? If not, please suggest an alternate strategy. Thank you.

Here are the original questions which were asked in relation to how and why Peter, Paul, and John died:

1. Did Satan or sinners pass the boundaries established by God?
2. Did they do something prohibited by God?
3. Or, did God allow them to die in the way they did, that is, He did not intervene because it was within His established limits?


I'm trying understand what *you* believe about God as it relates to how and why people (saints and sinners) suffer and die. The point of my asking this question is due to the fact I do not understand what you believe about it. I think I know what you believe about it but you regularly rebuke me for stating my opinion about what you believe. I felt it would be safer to simply ask you.

You wrote, "'Did Satan or sinners pass the boundaries established by God?' Surely you know this is impossible, don't you?" You seem to implying that you believe it is impossible for Satan and sinners to pass the boundaries established by God. Is this what you believe? If so, then I'm glad we agree nothing happens on this planet without God's permission, that no one can pass the limits set up by God.

I'm not sure that "mistranslated" would be the best way of putting it. "Misunderstood" I think is a better way of putting it. Before Christ came, God was greatly misunderstood. The following explains the principle I have in mind:





I'm not sure exactly what you have in mind by saying "without God's permission." You might have in mind that God has some design or desire that the thing which He gives permission to happen should occur. I would put it simply that nothing happens which God does not allow to happen, which is obvious, since God is omnipotent.



How does one "agree" with questions? I wasn't "indignant," but "frustrated." I'm sorry if I came across as "indignant."

You still haven't answer the questions I asked. Do you have any intention of doing so? (This is me being frustrated, not indignant).

Here are the questions you asked:



Aren't the answers to these questions (no, no, and yes) obvious? Is there any possible alternative? If so, how so?

Regarding the final portion, this seems like the same thing. Surely you understand that God is omnipotent, and nothing can happen that He does not allow. This seems to be your only point. I don't see why you feel this is a point worth making, or how it helps you to understand my position as to how or why people suffer and die. Am I missing something here? Do you have something else in mind than simply the fact that God is omnipotent and nothing can happen that God does not allow?