Tom, in my post to teresaq I quoted and underlined truths that support my view of justice and judgment and the use of fire. Do you agree with my comments and conclusions? Please explain.

BTW, the difference between GC 535 and GC 672, 673 are: 1) Disembodied spirits writhing in flames in hell forever and God taking great pleasure in their shrieks and agony. 2) Sinners suffering mental and physical agony is proportion to their sinfulness while the earth is engulfed in fire.

Also, where do you read in the Bible or the SOP that sinners are supernaturally burned alive in the lake of fire? True, the passages describing that time and place and event talk about the earth being one vast molten, seething lake of fire, but where does it say the wicked are writhing in the flames without dying instantaneously as if kept alive supernaturally for the purpose of punishment?

Ahhhh yes -- "context" it is one of the primary rules in exegesis -- "a text without a context is merely a pretext" as they say.

The point above argues for taking in "the details" in the 672-673 statements dealing explicilty with the Lake of Fire event.

The ideas is to learn from the "context" instead of trying to get GC 535 to 'negate 672'.

in Christ

Bob

The subject is "does God punish" -- we take you TO the focused area of GC where Ellen White speaks of the punishment of the wicked in terms that are unmistakable -- then ask you to 'deal with the details' on a few consecutive pages of text dealing with the actual subject of the thread. The best response you have is to completely ignore the list of questions and then do some hand waiving about why we should be reading something else "instead".

so lets look at 535-536 as you suggest, only let's go there "for context" to see just how effective those two pages really are in negating waht is said in 672-673. I think you will find a problem for your view if we do that.

The "first detail" we notice is that the "context" is the false doctrine of "eternal torment" and also the false doctrine of the "immortal soul" -- an idea that is not found in 672-673 nor has anyone suggested it here.

But it is a nice kind of diversion I suppose.

Here is 535 with context.

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Had man after his fall been allowed free access to the tree
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of life, he would have lived forever, and thus sin would have been immortalized. But cherubim and a flaming sword kept "the way of the tree of life" (Genesis 3:24), and not one of the family of Adam has been permitted to pass that barrier and partake of the life-giving fruit. Therefore there is not an immortal sinner. {GC 533.3}

But after the Fall, Satan bade his angels make a special effort to inculcate the belief in man's natural immortality; and having induced the people to receive this error, they were to lead them on to conclude that the sinner would live in eternal misery. Now the prince of darkness, working through his agents, represents God as a revengeful tyrant, declaring that He plunges into hell all those who do not please Him, and causes them ever to feel His wrath; and that while they suffer unutterable anguish and writhe in the eternal flames, their Creator looks down upon them with satisfaction. {GC 534.1}

Thus the archfiend clothes with his own attributes the Creator and Benefactor of mankind. Cruelty is satanic. God is love; and all that He created was pure, holy, and lovely, until sin was brought in by the first great rebel. Satan himself is the enemy who tempts man to sin, and then destroys him if he can; and when he has made sure of his victim, then he exults in the ruin he has wrought. If permitted, he would sweep the entire race into his net. Were it not for the interposition of divine power, not one son or daughter of Adam would escape. {GC 534.2}

Satan is seeking to overcome men today, as he overcame our first parents, by shaking their confidence in their Creator and leading them to doubt the wisdom of His government and the justice of His laws. Satan and his emissaries represent God as even worse than themselves, in order to justify their own malignity and rebellion. The great deceiver endeavors to shift his own horrible cruelty of character upon our heavenly Father, that he may cause himself to appear as one greatly wronged by his expulsion from heaven because he would not submit to so unjust a governor. He presents before
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the world the liberty which they may enjoy under his mild sway, in contrast with the bondage imposed by the stern decrees of Jehovah. Thus he succeeds in luring souls away from their allegiance to God. {GC 534.3}

How repugnant to every emotion of love and mercy, and even to our sense of justice, is the doctrine that the wicked dead are tormented with fire and brimstone in an eternally burning hell; that for the sins of a brief earthly life they are to suffer torture as long as God shall live. Yet this doctrine has been widely taught and is still embodied in many of the creeds of Christendom. Said a learned doctor of divinity: "The sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. When they see others who are of the same nature and born under the same circumstances, plunged in such misery, and they so distinguished, it will make them sensible of how happy they are." Another used these words: "While the decree of reprobation is eternally executing on the vessels of wrath, the smoke of their torment will be eternally ascending in view of the vessels of mercy, who, instead of taking the part of these miserable objects, will say, Amen, Alleluia! praise ye the Lord!" {GC 535.1}

Where, in the pages of God's word, is such teaching to be found? Will the redeemed in heaven be lost to all emotions of pity and compassion, and even to feelings of common humanity? Are these to be exchanged for the indifference of the stoic or the cruelty of the savage? No, no; such is not the teaching of the Book of God. Those who present the views expressed in the quotations given above may be learned and even honest men, but they are deluded by the sophistry of Satan. He leads them to misconstrue strong expressions of Scripture, giving to the language the coloring of bitterness and malignity which pertains to himself, but not to our Creator. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die?" Ezekiel 33:11.
536
{GC 535.2}

What would be gained to God should we admit that He delights in witnessing unceasing tortures; that He is regaled with the groans and shrieks and imprecations of the suffering creatures whom He holds in the flames of hell? Can these horrid sounds be music in the ear of Infinite Love? It is urged that the infliction of endless misery upon the wicked would show God's hatred of sin as an evil which is ruinous to the peace and order of the universe. Oh, dreadful blasphemy! As if God's hatred of sin is the reason why it is perpetuated. For, according to the teachings of these theologians, continued torture without hope of mercy maddens its wretched victims, and as they pour out their rage in curses and blasphemy, they are forever augmenting their load of guilt. God's glory is not enhanced by thus perpetuating continually increasing sin through ceaseless ages. {GC 536.1}

It is beyond the power of the human mind to estimate the evil which has been wrought by the heresy of eternal torment. The religion of the Bible, full of love and goodness, and abounding in compassion, is darkened by superstition and clothed with terror. When we consider in what false colors Satan has painted the character of God, can we wonder that our merciful Creator is feared, dreaded, and even hated? The appalling views of God which have spread over the world from the teachings of the pulpit have made thousands, yes, millions, of skeptics and infidels. {GC 536.2}

The theory of eternal torment is one of the false doctrines that constitute the wine of the abomination of Babylon, of which she makes all nations drink. Revelation 14:8; 17:2. That ministers of Christ should have accepted this heresy and proclaimed it from the sacred desk is indeed a mystery. They received it from Rome, as they received the false sabbath. True, it has been taught by great and good men; but the light on this subject had not come to them as it has come to us. They were responsible only for the light which shone in their time; we are accountable for that which shines in our day. If we turn from the testimony of God's word, and accept
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false doctrines because our fathers taught them, we fall under the condemnation pronounced upon Babylon; we are drinking of the wine of her abomination. {GC 536.3}

A large class to whom the doctrine of eternal torment is revolting are driven to the opposite error. They see that the Scriptures represent God as a being of love and compassion, and they cannot believe that He will consign His creatures to the fires of an eternally burning hell. But holding that the soul is naturally immortal, they see no alternative but to conclude that all mankind will finally be saved. Many regard the threatenings of the Bible as designed merely to frighten men into obedience, and not to be literally fulfilled. Thus the sinner can live in selfish pleasure, disregarding the requirements of God, and yet expect to be finally received into His favor. Such a doctrine, presuming upon God's mercy, but ignoring His justice, pleases the carnal heart and emboldens the wicked in their iniquity. {GC 537.1}

==========================================================

First we have the false doctrine of eternal hell - that is easily defeated "sola scriptura" and that is NOT taught in GC 672 -- is being condemned in GC 534-537

Secondly we have the doctrine of the immortal soul - that is easily defeated "sola scriptura" and that is NOT taught in GC672 -- being condemned in GC 534-537

Third - we see an appeal to the emotions -- that these false doctrines - biblically defeated - are also emotionally rejected.

But NOT ONCE - does Ellen White argue that the basis for doctrine may now be switched from the BIBLE - to "emotion".

In fact - Notice the errors mentioned here among the class to whom the false doctrine of "eternal torment is revolting"?? What errors are THEY said to follow?

===============================================

Questions for the objective unbiased reader.

1. How many times do you see explicit statements showing the subject to be "eternal hell" -- IN the text above?

2. How many times do you see EXPLICIT statements showing the subject to also be "immortal soul" in the pages quoted above?

3. Do you see a statement in that quote stating the the Bible -- "sola scriptura testing" - does not support these two false doctirnes?

4. Do you see a statement showing that God is being made out to be a monster BY THE false doctrine of eternal torment?

5. Do you see ANY mention of "eternal torment" in GC 672 AS IF GC 534-537 is in fact negating GC672??

in Christ,

Bob

I agree with your conclusion, but this is because I see what's happening in GC 672, 673 very differently than you do. It appears to me that you see these things as essentially the same, the principle difference being one of duration.



I think you missed the main thing. Here's what I think the main thing is:



This looks to me to apply directly to the view you are espousing.



No, I've not had any problems with the quotes, just your interpretation of them. Regarding your interpretation, yes.



Not sure what you're asking here. I certainly don't think God tortured the sinners of Sodom.



This is an odd question. I've been arguing against this view the whole time, right? So why ask me where I read this in the Bible or the SOP?



Where indeed!



Regarding 1), she doesn't say anything about disembodied spirits. Regarding 2), this is duration.

I've been asking if you see some difference other than duration between your view and the one she discusses on GC 535. I agree that it's unfair to torture someone forever based on a limited amount of evil. However, you seem to saying it's OK to torture them for a few hours or a few days, and it seems to me what she wrote in GC 535-536 applies against as well.

Why not do what she suggests, and consider all the things she wrote on a subject. Btw, I'm interested in your thoughts as well as MM's on this. How to you see the view of 535-536 as being different than the view you hold, except for duration?

Also, how is it that you perceive God as capable of doing that which you suggest He will do?

You keep claiming this, but the fact of the matter is I responded to all your questions regarding the text.

Also, her testimony is that to understand a topic, we should study all she has written about it, not focus on just one thing. One would think a person interested in this subject would at least consider the things an author wrote *from the very same book* on a subject under consideration.



You're approaching this with the wrong mindset. They don't "negate" 672-673, but "illuminate." How do they illuminate? By giving us insights into her thinking on the subject. 541-543 is also useful. This entire chapter is a good one for this subject, as is the first chapter of the book.

You quoted a bunch of pages of the book, with no comment. Why not address the question as to how the view she discusses is different from the one you hold to (other than duration)?

I found this list of questions most recently on page 42 -- and still no answer to them except to argue that we should be looking at some other part of Ellen White's writings -- not GC672-673


==================================================== from page 42 of this thread
Questions for the reader.

1. What does the phrase “His fury upon all their armies” refer too in the text above”?
2. What does the phrase “Suffer the full penalty of sin in the fires” refer to – in the text above?
3. Is it the same as the phrase above “The full penalty of the LAW has been visited ”??
4. When the text speaks of those who “suffer for many days” does this mean all or just some?
5. When the text says that by comparison “he is still to live and suffer on” after all others have perished… is that fair?
6. In the text the argument is made that in this way “the demands of justice have been met” is that really true as you see it?
7. In the text above when it is said that ”punishment is far greater” for Satan than for others suffering there – are ALL punished??

[/quote]



1. I am simply asking that you pay at least some attention to the "details" in the statements she makes on the subject of the 2nd death and the 2nd coming as quoted in th above post. To this point you have been very very reluctant to bring yourself to read the questions to the point of actually answering each one "from the text".

In find that "instructive".

2. Your claim that the questions are pointing to details in conflict with the way you would like to have positioned other statements by Ellen White -- is also "instructive".

Notice that neither of these quotes argues that "God is arbitrary so he pours out unmingled wrath" AS IF there was any link at all between those two concepts.

You insert it -- but it is not in the text that you are so carefully avoiding.

======================================================================

Bob, I've not only answered this, going through phrase by phrase, but I've pointed out to you where I posted this. Instead of just posting this same untrue assertion over and over again, why don't you respond to my post?

Also why won't you respond to my question of why you think God is capable of doing the things you suggest?



This makes no sense to me. What are you trying to say?

Regarding the quotes I cited, and teresaq as well, you and MM just ignore them. I've been asking over and over again for some explanation of things which takes into account what we've been quoting, in harmony with her suggestion that if we wish to know her thoughts on a subject that we take into account all that she wrote about it. Instead what I see is the same post over and over again, asking the same questions, even thought they've already been answered, while ignoring questions addressed to you which haven't been answered.

1. GC 672-673 is not simply a list of untrue asseertions. look at the details highlighted in the questions I have listed --

2. I think that the actions of GC 672-673 are to be taken seriously because that is what Ellen White describes AND because we see it described again not only in 2Thess 1 where "God is revealed in flaming fire dealing out retribution" but also in Luke 12 where we have "degrees of punishment" such that -- as Matt 18 says the wicked are handed over to the torturers and are put into a position of having to pay ALL the debt owed.

3. Because as George Knight points out in the "Neuturing of Adventism" the LION and the LAMB aspects of Christ are both Bible realities central to the Gospel.



I have repeatedly stated that GC 672-673 is NOT a list of "my suggestions".

I have repeatedly pointed to the DETAILS of GC 672-673 that speak to SPECIFICS you are so anxious to avoid. -- and I have yet to see you address them.






Because just as you are hand-waiving and ignore both context and each inconvenient detail in GC 672-673 (that deals DIRECTLY with the subject of punishment in the lake of fire for the wicked) so also you are doing it in your other examples -- in consistent manner.

Why LEAVE the very pages that DEAL with our subject -- to go to other sections that DO NOT deal with it -- and yet you are also ignoring content and context there as well so as to try to undercut 672.

Nevertheless - most recently I did indulge you in your GC 534- 537 foray showing how content and context illiminate this from the use you would have made of it.



1. Context.
2. Content.

There is NO guote of her where ignoring those two rules will help your argument because we only need to stop and start looking at the content and context as we did in the case of GC 534 to see how the pages can not be used to lessen or undermine GC 672 but rather they perfectly support and compliment it - leaving all the unpleasantries just as they are.

As for WHY God acts in the role of the LION -- the answer is that WE need it. (WE the surviving saints -- and the unfallen universe) to secure the universe against sin for all of eternity. It has nothing to do with "God likes it" and it has nothing to do with "Saints like it".



The only "answer" to the GC 672 question list I have ever seen from you is of the form "answer by not looking at the text at all - answer is not to read that part of Ellen White" -- which I keep arguing is NOT an answer SINCE each one of the questions asks for an "IN ThE TEXT" response for those two pages showing that we are indeed paying attention to "the details" rather than simply dismissing what does not please.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob, are you reading the posts on this thread? On page 37 I addressed this. On page 43 I told on what post I addressed this. I've been telling you over and over that your assertion is untrue, and asking you to respond to my post, but rather than doing this, you just keep making the same untrue assertion over and over again.

This is difficult to understand.



The untrue assertions are yours, when you claim the text you keep citing over and over again has been addressed, when it has been addressed, and you've been told where.



I addressed 2 Thess 1 in commenting on the DA 108 text I cited. This one:





Even from Scripture we can get this!



One of my favorite passages in Scripture. The Lion is the Lamb! Or the Lamb is the Lion!



I'm not asking about GC 672-673, but your interpretation of it. There's nothing in GC 672-673 which says that God will burn people alive, supernaturally keeping them alive so they can suffer, which seems to be your view. As I've pointed out several times, I'm aware of no Adventist publication which suggests this. This doesn't mean or imply your view is wrong, just that it's unusual enough that simply pointing to this text doesn't explain why you interpret it in a way so many others don't.

I think the reason many don't see it the way you is that they don't see God as capable of doing what you're suggesting (i.e., your interpretation of what EGW wrote). Why do you think God is capable of what you suggest?



Anxious to avoid? I addressed this many pages ago, and you just keep posting this untrue assertion over and over again. It's one of the most peculiar things I've seen. I've been telling you over and over again I responded, and told you where, and have asked you to address my post, but you just keep writing this. Why?



But Bob, DA 764 deals just as DIRECTLY with the subject as GC 672-673 does. And rather than being simply a description of a symbolic vision, she explains the principles and concepts involved. I don't understand why anyone would not take to heart her admonition to consider all she's written on a subject to understand her ideas on the subject.



How can you assert that these other passages are not dealing with the subject? What do you think GC 541-543 is dealing with, if not the judgment? Or DA 764? Or GC 535-536?



I can only guess that this is because you're not reading the posts very carefully. I not only addressed your question list, but I've repeatedly pointed this out to you, and told you where to find the post.

This is an odd dialog. I ask you to answer questions, but you refuse, instead accusing me of not answering questions I have answered, while you keep asking the same questions over and over again, while they've already been answered.