The Lord declares by the prophet Isaiah: "Say ye to the righteous, that it shall be well with him." "Woe unto the wicked! it shall be ill with him: for the reward of his hands shall be given him." Isaiah 3:10, 11. "Though a sinner do evil an hundred times," says the wise man, "and his days be prolonged, yet surely I know that it shall be well with them that fear God, which fear before Him: but it shall not be well with the wicked." Ecclesiastes 8:12, 13. And Paul testifies that the sinner is treasuring up unto himself "wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; who will render to every man according to his deeds;" "tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that doeth evil." Romans 2:5, 6,9. {GC 540.3}

"No fornicator, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God." Ephesians 5:5, A.R.V. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord." Hebrews 12:14. "Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." Revelation 22:14, 15. {GC 541.1}

God has given to men a declaration of His character and of His method of dealing with sin. "The Lord God, merciful and gracious, long-suffering and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty." Exodus 34:6, 7. "All the wicked will He destroy." "The transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off." Psalms 145:20; 37:38. The power and authority of the divine government will be employed to put down rebellion; yet all the manifestations of retributive justice will be perfectly consistent with the character of God as a merciful, long-suffering, benevolent being. {GC 541.2}

God does not force the will or judgment of any. He takes no pleasure in a slavish obedience. He desires that the creatures of His hands shall love Him because He is worthy of love. He would have them obey Him because they have an intelligent appreciation of His wisdom, justice, and benevolence. And all who have a just conception of these qualities will love Him because they are drawn toward Him in admiration of His attributes. {GC 541.3}

The principles of kindness, mercy, and love, taught and exemplified by our Saviour, are a transcript of the will and character of God. Christ declared that He taught nothing except that which He had received from His Father. The principles of the divine government are in perfect harmony with the Saviour's precept, "Love your enemies." God executes justice upon the wicked, for the good of the universe, and even for the good of those upon whom His judgments are visited. He would make them happy if He could do so in accordance with the laws of His government and the justice of His character. He surrounds them with the tokens of His love, He grants them a knowledge of His law, and follows them with the offers of His mercy; but they despise His love, make void His law, and reject His mercy. While constantly receiving His gifts, they dishonor the Giver; they hate God because they know that He abhors their sins. The Lord bears long with their perversity; but the decisive hour will come at last, when their destiny is to be decided. Will He then chain these rebels to His side? Will He force them to do His will? {GC 541.4}

Those who have chosen Satan as their leader and have been controlled by his power are not prepared to enter the presence of God. Pride, deception, licentiousness, cruelty, have become fixed in their characters. Can they enter heaven to dwell forever with those whom they despised and hated on earth? Truth will never be agreeable to a liar; meekness will not satisfy self-esteem and pride; purity is not acceptable to the corrupt; disinterested love does not appear attractive to the selfish. What source of enjoyment could heaven offer to those who are wholly absorbed in earthly and selfish interests? {GC 542.1}

Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to heaven and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there,-- every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor of God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sitteth upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. {GC 542.2}

Like the waters of the Flood the fires of the great day declare God's verdict that the wicked are incurable. They have no disposition to submit to divine authority. Their will has been exercised in revolt; and when life is ended, it is too late to turn the current of their thoughts in the opposite direction, too late to turn from transgression to obedience, from hatred to love. {GC 543.1}

In sparing the life of Cain the murderer, God gave the world an example of what would be the result of permitting the sinner to live to continue a course of unbridled iniquity. Through the influence of Cain's teaching and example, multitudes of his descendants were led into sin, until "the wickedness of man was great in the earth" and "every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." "The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence." Genesis 6:5, 11. {GC 543.2}

In mercy to the world, God blotted out its wicked inhabitants in Noah's time. In mercy He destroyed the corrupt dwellers in Sodom. Through the deceptive power of Satan the workers of iniquity obtain sympathy and admiration, and are thus constantly leading others to rebellion. It was so in Cain's and in Noah's day, and in the time of Abraham and Lot; it is so in our time. It is in mercy to the universe that God will finally destroy the rejecters of His grace. {GC 543.3}

"The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23. While life is the inheritance of the righteous, death is the portion of the wicked. Moses declared to Israel: "I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil." Deuteronomy 30:15. The death referred to in these scriptures is not that pronounced upon Adam, for all mankind suffer the penalty of his transgression. It is "the second death" that is placed in contrast with everlasting life. {GC 544.1}

In consequence of Adam's sin, death passed upon the whole human race. All alike go down into the grave. And through the provisions of the plan of salvation, all are to be brought forth from their graves. "There shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust;" "for as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." Acts 24:15; I Corinthians 15:22. But a distinction is made between the two classes that are brought forth. "All that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:28, 29. They who have been "accounted worthy" of the resurrection of life are "blessed and holy." "On such the second death hath no power." Revelation 20:6. But those who have not, through repentance and faith, secured pardon, must receive the penalty of transgression--"the wages of sin." They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, "according to their works," but finally ending in the second death. Since it is impossible for God, consistently with His justice and mercy, to save the sinner in his sins, He deprives him of the existence which his transgressions have forfeited and of which he has proved himself unworthy. Says an inspired writer: "Yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be." And another declares: "They shall be as though they had not been." Psalm 37:10; Obadiah 16. Covered with infamy, they sink into hopeless, eternal oblivion. {GC 544.2}

Thus will be made an end of sin, with all the woe and ruin which have resulted from it. Says the psalmist: "Thou hast destroyed the wicked, Thou hast put out their name forever and ever. O thou enemy, destructions are come to a perpetual end." Psalm 9:5, 6. John, in the Revelation, looking forward to the eternal state, hears a universal anthem of praise undisturbed by one note of discord. Every creature in heaven and earth was heard ascribing glory to God. Revelation 5:13. There will then be no lost souls to blaspheme God as they writhe in never-ending torment; no wretched beings in hell will mingle their shrieks with the songs of the saved. {GC 545.1}

I hear you saying this describes symbolic fire.

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)

At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thess. 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked.

In the time of John the Baptist, Christ was about to appear as the revealer of the character of God. (DA 108)

T: I agree with your conclusion, but this is because I see what's happening in GC 672, 673 very differently than you do. It appears to me that you see these things as essentially the same, the principle difference being one of duration.

M:That’s because you’re not listening to me. You’ve made up your mind that my view is described in GC 535 save for the duration.

Please cut and paste sentences from GC 535 that you believe describes my view. If you dishonor my request and ignore it, I will simply keep asking it until you do. So, please, save us the trouble and simply honor my request now. Thank you.

You need to check your hearing!

I've said this describes symbolic fire. I've said the GC passage describes a symbolic vision. I've said that to understand Ellen White's views on a subject, we need to consider all she wrote about the subject. I've asked how your view of the GC passage harmonizes with DA 764 and DA 108. Many times I've asked this. I still don't know.

T: I agree with your conclusion, but this is because I see what's happening in GC 672, 673 very differently than you do. It appears to me that you see these things as essentially the same, the principle difference being one of duration.

M:That’s because you’re not listening to me. You’ve made up your mind that my view is described in GC 535 save for the duration.

To a large degree I made up mind in regards to this because this is what you said! I asked you a direct question, and you answered it "yes."

M: Please cut and paste sentences from GC 535 that you believe describes my view. If you dishonor my request and ignore it, I will simply keep asking it until you do. So, please, save us the trouble and simply honor my request now. Thank you.

T: Anymore than you're "dishonoring my request" by not answering my question? I've asked you repeatedly, over and over, again and again, what's the difference between your view and the one she describes other than duration, and so far all I've gotten is disembodied spirits.

Why don't you "please, save us the trouble and simply honor my request now."? Regarding your request, I would quote the whole thing, except for duration:

How repugnant to every emotion of love and mercy, and even to our sense of justice, is the doctrine that the wicked dead are tormented with fire and brimstone in a burning hell. Said a learned doctor of divinity: "The sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. When they see others who are of the same nature and born under the same circumstances, plunged in such misery, and they so distinguished, it will make them sensible of how happy they are." Another used these words: "While the decree of reprobation is eternally executing on the vessels of wrath, the smoke of their torment will be eternally ascending in view of the vessels of mercy, who, instead of taking the part of these miserable objects, will say, Amen, Alleluia! praise ye the Lord!"

Where, in the pages of God's word, is such teaching to be found? Will the redeemed in heaven be lost to all emotions of pity and compassion, and even to feelings of common humanity? Are these to be exchanged for the indifference of the stoic or the cruelty of the savage? No, no; such is not the teaching of the Book of God. Those who present the views expressed in the quotations given above may be learned and even honest men, but they are deluded by the sophistry of Satan. He leads them to misconstrue strong expressions of Scripture, giving to the language the coloring of bitterness and malignity which pertains to himself, but not to our Creator. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die?" Ezekiel 33:11.

Why, if I don't instantly do just what you want am I "dishonoring your request" and "wasting time," but you can refuse to answer my questions again and again and that's not "dishonoring my request"?

Here are three questions I'd like answered:

1.How does your view harmonize with DA 764 and DA 108. (if you want to be more ambitious, add GC 535-536 and GC 541-543).

2.Why do you think God is capable of acting in accordance with the viewpoint you hold? (i.e. burn people alive for many hours or days).

3.What is different about the view you hold and what Ellen White describes, other than duration?

Do you think that particular passage in the GC is describing literal fire? Please explain.

If the passages above are describing symbolic fire, how do you explain the fact it causes the "elements of the earth to melt with fervent heat"?

In response to the many, many passages like this one you say, "I've said the GC passage describes a symbolic vision." What do you mean?

M:That’s because you’re not listening to me. You’ve made up your mind that my view is described in GC 535 save for the duration.

T:To a large degree I "made up my mind" in regards to this because this is what you said! I asked you a direct question, and you answered it "yes."

M:Wow! Are you still accusing me of believing something I have clearly said I do not believe.

If you won't believe me - who will you believe?

Ask me your direct question again and I'll give you a direct answer - no vague, indistinct, ambiguous answer which will force you to ask it over and over again.

Tom, you really believe I haven't honored your request and clearly answered your question - don't you!

Alright, here we go line by line:

1. "The wicked dead are tormented with fire and brimstone in a burning hell." I do not believe the wicked are dead. I believe they are alive. I do not believe they are tormented with fire and brimstone. I believe they are on a planet engulfed in fire as are the righteous. And, I do not believe there is such a thing as a "burning hell". Hell is the grave.

2. "The sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. When they see others who are of the same nature and born under the same circumstances, plunged in such misery, and they so distinguished, it will make them sensible of how happy they are." I do not believe the righteous will experience joy or happiness as the wicked suffer in hell fire and torments. They will shout, Amen, in response to the justice and judgment of God.

3. "While the decree of reprobation is eternally executing on the vessels of wrath, the smoke of their torment will be eternally ascending in view of the vessels of mercy, who, instead of taking the part of these miserable objects, will say, Amen, Alleluia! praise ye the Lord!" I do not believe the righteous will rejoice over the demise of the wicked as they burn and smoke eternally. Naturally, they will be glad they didn't end up suffering and dying like the wicked.

4. "Will the redeemed in heaven be lost to all emotions of pity and compassion, and even to feelings of common humanity? Are these to be exchanged for the indifference of the stoic or the cruelty of the savage?" No, no; such is not the teaching of the Book of God. There will be sadness and sorrow which is why God shall have to wipe away all tears.

5. "Those who present the views expressed in the quotations given above may be learned and even honest men, but they are deluded by the sophistry of Satan. He leads them to misconstrue strong expressions of Scripture, giving to the language the coloring of bitterness and malignity which pertains to himself, but not to our Creator." I agree.

6. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die?" Ezekiel 33:11. To this I say, Amen! This is not to say, however, that God executes justice and judgment sheepishly.

Although He will not gloat over their demise He will, nevertheless, dispense retributive justice and judgment with a divine vengeance.

There is a sense in which the radiant firelight emanating from God's presence and physical being causes sinners to feel shame and guilt for the sins they have committed. This experience is likened to fire. This is, of course, symbolic fire. It doesn't cause them or anything else to burst into flames or to burn up and turn into ashes.

There is also a sense, however, in which the radiant firelight emanating from God's presence and physical being causes the "elements of the fire to melt with fervent heat". So, this is how I harmonize the quotes in question, namely, the context makes it clear whether or not the radiant firelight emanating from God's presence and physical being is literal or symbolic.

There are other sources of fire God employs to execute justice and judgment. He uses lava, coal, oil, and lightening as fuel and fire.

Please save this answer so you never have to wonder if I've answered it. Thank you.

T:2. Why do you think God is capable of acting in accordance with the viewpoint you hold? (i.e. burn people alive for many hours or days).

M:The fact God has used literal sources of fire to burn full-cup sinners alive in the past makes it very clear it is right and righteous.

God is perfect and sinless and altogether holy, just, and good, therefore, He can do no wrong. Whatever He does is right and righteous by virtue of the fact He did it.

Bob, I don't understand what you're doing. You just keep repeating the same thing, regardless of its truth.

I've told you the number of the post which addressed the texts you brought up.

Why don't you respond to that post? Wouldn't that be a better attempt at dialog than pretending it doesn't exist?

Also, please respond to the questions you've been asked. There are three in particular I'd like answered.

1.Why do you think God is capable of doing the things you think He will do?

2.How do you see your view of the GC 672-673 passage harmonizing with other passages which have been cited. Let's start with one in particular, DA 764, as I'm sure you can see that this is dealing with the same topic.

3.Is there anything different with your view and the one Ellen White argues against in GC 535-536, other than duration? In particular, how does your view harmonize with the following?

The religion of the Bible, full of love and goodness, and abounding in compassion, is darkened by superstition and clothed with terror. When we consider in what false colors Satan has painted the character of God, can we wonder that our merciful Creator is feared, dreaded, and even hated? The appalling views of God which have spread over the world from the teachings of the pulpit have made thousands, yes, millions, of skeptics and infidels. (GC 536)

I understand that the context of this paragraph is the heresy of eternal torment, but don't these thoughts stand on their own? Don't they apply to any teaching which false misrepresents God's character in the manner described (e.g. "clothed with terror")?