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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#109586
03/08/09 05:05 PM
03/08/09 05:05 PM
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M: I intended for this to be understood as emotional as opposed to physical.
T: You suggest that the radiant firelight causes the wicked to feel shame. That doesn't make sense, if this firelight is physical. If the firelight is a revelation of God's character, then what you're saying makes sense, because when God's character is revealed to people, this indeed invokes a strong reaction (e.g. Isaiah, Zechariah, John, Daniel). It wasn’t until divinity flashed through humanity that sinners feared and felt guilty in the presence of Jesus. M: Spiritual photosynthesis? I do not pretend to understand how the radiant firelight emanating from God’s physical being and presence can take or give life.
T: Why not trade your theory for one you can understand? Comments like this are harmful not helpful, Tom. M: The fact that it does suggests something physical is happening. But this isn’t to say it is purely physical as if nothing about it is symbolic or spiritual.
T: It's the other way around. We human beings are physical/emotional/spiritual. These are connected, so that what impacts us spiritually and emotionally has a physical effect. The light of the glory of God is nothing like "Raiders of the Lost Ark," but is as the context suggests: Actually there are times when the firelight of God’s physical presence flashes forth like lightning. Listen: Fire flashed from heaven and consumed the sacrifice. {PP 71.3}
The mysterious cloud changed to a pillar of fire before their astonished eyes. The thunders pealed and the lightnings flashed. "The clouds poured out water; the skies sent out a sound: Thine arrows also went abroad. The voice of Thy thunder was in the whirlwind; the lightning lightened the world: the earth trembled and shook." Psalm 77:17, 18, R.V. {PP 287.3}
From the thick darkness flashed vivid lightnings, while peals of thunder echoed and re-echoed among the surrounding heights. "And Mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly." "The glory of the Lord was like devouring fire on the top of the mount" in the sight of the assembled multitude. And "the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder." So terrible were the tokens of Jehovah's presence that the hosts of Israel shook with fear, and fell upon their faces before the Lord. Even Moses exclaimed, "I exceedingly fear and quake." Hebrews 12:21. {PP 304.2}
Before the Son of man appears in the clouds of heaven, everything in nature will be convulsed. Lightning from heaven uniting with the fire in the earth, will cause the mountains to burn like a furnace, and pour out their floods of lava over villages and cities. Molten masses of rock, thrown into the water by the upheaval of things hidden in the earth, will cause the water to boil and send forth rocks and earth. There will be mighty earthquakes and great destruction of human life. But as in the days of the great Deluge Noah was preserved in the ark that God had prepared for him, so in these days of destruction and calamity, God will be the refuge of His believing ones . . . [Ps. 91:9, 10; 27:5 quoted] (Letter 258, 1907). {7BC 946.7}
The hand of Omnipotence is at no loss for ways and means to accomplish His purposes. He could reach into the bowels of the earth and call forth His weapons, waters there concealed, to aid in the destruction of the corrupt inhabitants of the old world. . . . {7BC 946.8}
Water will never destroy the earth again, but the weapons of God are concealed in the bowels of the earth, which He will draw forth to unite with the fire from heaven to accomplish His purpose in the destruction of all those who would not receive the message of warning and purify their souls in obeying the truth and being obedient to the laws of God (ST Jan. 3, 1878). {7BC 946.9}
In the bowels of the earth God has in reserve the weapons that He will use to destroy the sinful race. Since the Flood, God has used, to destroy wicked cities, both the water and the fire that are concealed in the earth. In the final conflagration God will in His wrath send lightning from heaven that will unite with the fire in the earth. The mountains will burn like a furnace, and pour forth streams of lava [Nahum 1:5, 6; Ps. 144:5, 6 quoted] (MS 21, 1902). {7BC 946.10} It’s hard to read passages like the ones above and not think of Raiders of the Lost Ark. M: That’s certainly one interpretation of the facts, Tom. It just so happens I disagree with your interpretation. I do not disagree, however, with the facts. I believe law and justice requires God to punish and kill sinners in proportion and in duration to their sinfulness. This is the inevitable consequence of sin. This is what is meant by reaping and sowing. You sow sin; you reap capital punishment. That’s the law. It's the way God established things. In the beginning the angels did not understand the relationship between justice and judgment, thus the immediate punishment and execution of evil angels would have caused them to fear God.
Yes, I realize that you wholeheartedly reject this interpretation, that you think it is dangerous and rebellious, that it grossly misrepresents the character and kingdom of God, and that it must refuted at all cost. I’m sorry you feel this way, but I am convinced the evidence supports it.
T: Ok, here are the facts:
1.The destruction of the wicked is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God.
2.The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown.
3.God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life.
4.God gives the wicked existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice.
5.By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire.
6.The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
7.At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this.
8.Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished.
9.It would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. Yes, these are the facts. T: It looks to me like you are disagreeing with these facts. For example, this says that death, not capital punishment, is the inevitable result of sin. It says had God "left" Satan to reap the full result of sin, he would have perished. This could hardly be referring to capital punishment, because in this case God would be *causing* Satan's death. She could hardly have said God was leaving Satan to reap a consequence that God Himself was causing. I realize you firmly believe any view of these facts that contradict your understanding of them is wrong and harmful. As such it is hard to imagine you discussing any other view objectively. For example, death and capital punishment both refer to death. Satan has regularly appeared in the presence of God without being consumed by the firelight of His glory. And yet this is the very source of fire you claim will play a part in the death of Satan at the end of time. Or, do you think he will die of other combination of causes? If so, what do think will cause Satan to die? Do you think the glory of God reacting with the sin in Satan will cause him to die like collateral damage? Or, do you think sin alone will kill Satan? If so, please post inspired passages which clearly say so, as opposed to passages that require the art of fanciful logic and elaborate deductions and the stringing together of loosely related insights to arrive at a new and original idea. T: Also, there would have been nothing for the angels to misinterpret. If things were to happen the way you're suggesting, there would be no more or less doubt formed in the minds of angels then had it occurred in the beginning. There would have been nothing to be confused about, as what would be happening would be exactly what they would have perceived was happening. I don't think you've ever caught this point. It's a bit tricky. I'll try to explain it in some more detail.
Say Satan is destroyed as you suggest; God kills him. In this case, the angels would have perceived God to be doing exactly what He would be doing -- killing Satan. This interpretation doesn't make sense.
Now suppose that Satan only appears to be being killed by God, but in reality his death is the inevitable result of sin. Suppose it takes the cross to understand this. In this case, everything makes sense.
It makes sense that Ellen White would explain these principles in a chapter dealing with what Christ's death accomplished. It makes sense that she would explain the death of Satan in terms of something God allows to happen (i.e. "left"), as opposed to causing Himself (the thrust of the 9 points above).
You see, Ellen White emphasizes over and over again that the death of the wicked is due to their own choice. Why is she emphasizing this? So that it is understood that their death occurs as the result of sin. She explains why God could have allowed Satan to die earlier in terms of this. And the whole thing is explained in the context of the cross. Everything fits together. Tom, I realize you believe sin, not God, is what punishes and kills sinners at the end of time. I also realize you think if God had allowed sin to punish and kill Satan in the beginning that the loyal angels would have assumed God, not sin, punished and killed him, and that they would have feared God forever not understanding why He punished and killed him. I have a couple of questions regarding your view. 1. If sin, not God, punishes and kills sinners, why, then, do you think Satan is still alive? 2. What do you think the loyal angels think about this reason as to why Satan is still alive? 3. What do you think the loyal angels think will cause Satan to suffer and die at the end of time? 4. When do you think the loyal angels understood how and why Satan will die at the end of time? 5. When do you think the loyal angels were ready for Satan to suffer and die for his sins? 6. Do you think there was ever a time before the cross that the loyal angels thought they were ready for Satan to suffer and die for his sins? 7. Do you think the loyal angels understood things well enough before the cross for Satan to suffer and die for his sins without fearing God forever thereafter? M: I appreciate the fact you understand that your use of the word “torture” in this context is insulting and counterproductive, thus, you can imagine my flinching every time you use it.
T: Is "torment" OK? I can use that if you prefer. I'm going to go on the assumption that it's OK, since it's in Scripture. It depends on the context, Tom. God will execute the death penalty. He will punish sinners, and they will suffer emotionally and physically like Jesus did. God is not, however, torturing or tormenting them. M: Are you saying it is humane to burn sinners alive so long as it happens quickly or instantaneously, and that it is inhumane if it takes longer for them to die? T: It amazes how often you so badly you comprehend what I'm writing. Here's what I wrote: But in these events in the past, you see the wicked who were attacked by fire to have died instantly, don't you? I'm asking how you perceive that God would have it in Him to torment people with literal fire for hours or days at a time. (edited slightly, removing "torture"). You notice I wrote "you see the wicked who were attacked by fire to have died instantly." How can you possibly interpret a sentence where I am discussing what "you see" to be some sort of affirmation on my part that something's OK? MM, you completely avoided my question. Please answer it. I'll repeat it. I'm asking how you think it's OK for God to use literal fire to burn people alive for many days or many hours. You haven't directly addressed this, although you've said that God burned people alive in the past, so the implication is your thinking is if God did so in the past, He could do so in the future. Because this is what you seem to be implied, I pointed out that there's a difference between being burned alive and dying instantly and being burned alive, and not allowed to die, but kept alive, to suffer excruciating pain for many hours or many days. So even if your assumption were accepted in terms of what happened in Sodom, that still wouldn't explain why you think God would be capable of tormenting people as you're suggesting for hours or days at a time. In answer to your question – I don’t believe God will use literal fire to burn people alive for many days or many hours. Now, I have a question for you – Do you think God has ever employed the “withdraw and permit” method of punishment to allow literal fire to burn people alive? Please elaborate on your answer. Thank you. M: God is perfect and sinless and altogether holy, just, and good, therefore, He can do no wrong. Whatever He does is right and righteous by virtue of the fact He did it (and will do it).
T: He hasn't done the judgment yet. We're not discussing something God did, but something God will do. If we want to best understand the judgment in terms of something God has done in the past, the best thing to look at would be the cross, which is precisely what Ellen White does in DA 764.
M: Do you agree with the premise of my point?
T: No, not the way you're reasoning. You're reasoning like this: "Since God can do no wrong, and God will do in the future what I believe He will do, then what I believe can't be wrong, because God can do no wrong." This isn't what you said, but I believe this is what you mean.
What I think is that God can do no wrong, and your idea of what God will do is immoral, and therefore wrong, so therefore it is not possible that God will do what you believe He will do. Only an immoral God would do that. 1. Do you think it is accurate to say God can do no wrong? 2. And, do you think it is accurate to conclude that no matter how “strange” a certain act may seem to us, the fact God did it is proof it was right and righteous? 3. For example, according to you, God has on several occasions withdrew His protection and permitted the pent up forces of nature to implode upon itself thus killing sinners in the process. Do you think these kinds of “strange acts” are consistent with the loving and merciful character of God, and that allowing sinners to die this way was right and righteous? 4. And, do you think it is accurate to conclude that if God were to do such “strange acts” in the future that it would be right and righteous by virtue of the fact it is God who did it?
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Tom]
#109587
03/08/09 05:12 PM
03/08/09 05:12 PM
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Tom, these are the facts {EW 294.1}:
1. Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action.
2. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together.
3. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer.
4. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body.
5. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained.
6. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon."
Please explain why you think each one of these facts are literal or symbolic.
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#109588
03/08/09 05:49 PM
03/08/09 05:49 PM
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M: Yes, I have already articulated this insight. There is a sense in which the firelight of God’s glory and presence will cause the wicked to suffer emotional agony in proportion and in duration to their sinfulness.
T: Not "firelight" but "character." The glory of God is His character, not firelight. That a revelation of God's character would cause the wicked to suffer emotional agony in proportion and in duration to their sinfulness makes sense. That a "firelight" would do so doesn't.
M: Please bear this in mind as we study the physical aspect of punishment. We do not disagree on the emotional aspect of punishment.
T: We do if you disassociate the emotional aspect of the wicked's suffering from a revelation of God's character. Your view of the firelight of God's glory seems to assume unpardonable sinners are capable of comprehending His character to such a degree that it causes to them suffer unimaginable emotional agony and physical pain. But the Bible says, "Spiritual things are spiritually discerned." The expression, "He that hath an ear, let him hear," implies the eye salve of spiritual discernment is necessary to comprehend the deep things of God. It wasn't the character of Christ that caused sinners to fear and quiver in His presence; it was divinity flashing through humanity. You seem to think comprehending His character is what forces sinners to fear for their lives. Please explain to me how you think God makes their dark and unpardonable minds to comprehend the things they were not naturally able to do so previously? M: I realize it is easy to forget we agree on this aspect as we discuss the physical aspect, but please try hard and pray hard to remember we agree on this aspect. Thank you.
T: It doesn't seem to me that we do. It seems like you think the following:
1. It is a "firelight" which causes the wicked to suffer both physically and emotionally. Physically it is akin to "Raiders of the lost ark," which sinful flesh cannot bear this firelight. Emotionally there's something that happens which causes them to suffer in proportion to their sinfulness, but you don't know why. In addition to the "firelight," which is what you perceive God's glory to be here, the physical are also tormented by God with literal fire which you used to say engulfs them, but now you may have a different conception of it (not sure on this; waiting for clarification).
Whereas I believe:
2. The glory of God is His character. The light of the glory of God is the revelation of God's character, which is the revelation of Jesus Christ. It is this revelation which causes the suffering of the wicked in proportion to their sin, suffering which is primarily emotional, although there is a physical element to it as well.
M: Yes, my understanding of it has changed. I can thank you for that. I no longer believe the Bible or the SOP describes them being engulfed in flames. Instead the earth is engulfed in flames and the wicked are allowed to suffer physically in proportion and in duration to their sinfulness. However, as with Jesus, their physical suffering will be nothing in comparison to their emotional agony.
T: Well, glad to hear this! I agree with much of this, particularly with the last sentence. I think the comparison to Jesus is apt. The better we understand the hell He went through, the better we'll understand the hell the wicked will go through. I have modified your summary of my view to agree with what I actually believe: The firelight of God's glory causes the wicked to fear God and to somehow suffer emotionally in proportion and in duration to their sinfulness. T: I don't know what you're saying in regards to literal fire. How does this literal fire enter into things? Does it cause pain to the wicked? If so, how much? Just a little, like being hot (to close to a hot flame, for example). Or much more, like being burned alive? (it seems like you're rejecting this idea). Although we do not have enough inspired information to know just exactly how the wicked will suffer physically, but it seems reasonable to conclude that literal fire will play a part in it. T: Regarding the list, I think 4 and 8 are symbolic, although their may be a physical element to it as well. It's primarily symbolic, however, as DA 108 brings out. Do you agree with how I labeled the other passages posted above? Also, what is it about the following two passages that make you think they are describing primarily a symbolic fire: 4. 2 Thessalonians 1:6 Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. 8. When the divine Presence was manifested upon Sinai, the glory of the Lord was like devouring fire in the sight of all Israel. But when Christ shall come in glory with His holy angels the whole earth shall be ablaze with the terrible light of His presence. "Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before Him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about Him. He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that He may judge His people." Psalm 50:3, 4. A fiery stream shall issue and come forth from before Him, which shall cause the elements to melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein shall be burned up. "The Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel." 2 Thessalonians 1:7, 8. {PP 339.2} T: Regarding what prophets have seen in vision, what they see in vision is a literal fire, but it's a symbolic vision, so the fire is a symbol. However, there is also a physical fire involved as well, as the earth will be engulfed by a literal fire. So both physical and literal fire is involved in the judgement scene. Do you think you know when fire in a vision is literal and symbolic? If so, please explain what criteria you use to determine when a vision is describing literal fire and symbolic fire. Thank you. PS - Do you know which passages describe literal fire burning deceased sinners to ashes at the end of time? If so, please post them.
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#109593
03/08/09 07:53 PM
03/08/09 07:53 PM
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M: I intended for this to be understood as emotional as opposed to physical.
T: You suggest that the radiant firelight causes the wicked to feel shame. That doesn't make sense, if this firelight is physical. If the firelight is a revelation of God's character, then what you're saying makes sense, because when God's character is revealed to people, this indeed invokes a strong reaction (e.g. Isaiah, Zechariah, John, Daniel).
M:It wasn’t until divinity flashed through humanity that sinners feared and felt guilty in the presence of Jesus. Divinity flashing through humanity is precisely the character of God being revealed. This can be seen by comparing DA 108 with the DA comments regarding the cleansing of the temple. In DA 108, the wicked cannot abide Christ presence, because He is revealing the character of God. In the DA passage speaking of the temple building, she expresses the same thought with the language "divinity flashed through humanity," which result in their being aware of their sin. It is the revelation of God which put the finger to our sin. His goodness makes clear our filthiness. The goodness of God leads us to repentance. M: Spiritual photosynthesis? I do not pretend to understand how the radiant firelight emanating from God’s physical being and presence can take or give life.
T: Why not trade your theory for one you can understand?
M:Comments like this are harmful not helpful, Tom. I think they are. I think a large weakness in many of the positions you hold is that they're logical, not even to you. This should lead you to theories which are logical. That's the hope, anyway. It’s hard to read passages like the ones above and not think of Raiders of the Lost Ark. Only if one reads these things superficially, IMO. The issue is one of the spirit, not of the flesh. The glory that shone on the face of Moses was a physical manifestation of a spiritual reality, which was the revelation of the glory of God to Moses, which was God's character (there's no question on this point, right? If there is, it's easily verified that the glory of God revealed to Moses was His character.) So God revealed His character to Moses. That resulted in a physical manifestation, the beaming of Moses' face. But Moses was a human being with sinful flesh, just like the rest. If the reason for the Israelite's inability to look on Moses' face were not spiritual but physical, then surely Moses himself would have been suffering himself. That is, he wouldn't have been able to stand the glory of his own face; after all, it that glory would have been reflecting right to eyes, inches away. I realize you firmly believe any view of these facts that contradict your understanding of them is wrong and harmful. As such it is hard to imagine you discussing any other view objectively. For example, death and capital punishment both refer to death. Satan has regularly appeared in the presence of God without being consumed by the firelight of His glory.
And yet this is the very source of fire you claim will play a part in the death of Satan at the end of time. Or, do you think he will die of other combination of causes? If so, what do think will cause Satan to die? Do you think the glory of God reacting with the sin in Satan will cause him to die like collateral damage?
Or, do you think sin alone will kill Satan? If so, please post inspired passages which clearly say so, as opposed to passages that require the art of fanciful logic and elaborate deductions and the stringing together of loosely related insights to arrive at a new and original idea. The DA passage says that if God left Satan to reap the full result of his sin, he would have perished, but He did not do so because it would not have appeared to the other angels that death was the inevitable result of sin. So, obviously, God is not leaving Satan to reap the full result of his sin. That's why he doesn't die. To read into this passage the idea that God will kill those who sin is to destroy her whole argument. It would fly in the face of that which she emphasized ten times in a row. Furthermore, there's no way to characterize God's "leaving" Satan to reap the full result of his sin as God's causing Satan to die. If Satan dies because God kills him, that could hardly be characterized as God's "leaving" Satan to die. "Leaving" and "causing" are contrary thoughts. She would have had to write something like, "Had God invoked capital punishment upon Satan in the beginning, it would not have been understood that this was in order" (i.e., that Satan deserved this). But this isn't her argument at all! Her argument is that had God done this, what was really happening would have been misunderstood. You're not addressing this point.
Tom, I realize you believe sin, not God, is what punishes and kills sinners at the end of time.
God punishes the wicked, but the punishment is not an arbitrary act of power on the part of God. It is a giving up on the part of God ("How can I give you up?"). What causes the death of the wicked is sin -- it's fine to characterize my view as saying that. I've not said that sin is what "punishes and kills sinners." What I've said is that the inevitable result of sin is death, or, using other words, that sin causes death (which is the same thing; if the inevitable result of A is B then A causes B, assuming no independent source C is involved). (More later)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Tom]
#109600
03/08/09 11:01 PM
03/08/09 11:01 PM
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1. If sin, not God, punishes and kills sinners, why, then, do you think Satan is still alive? For the reason that DA 764 states. Had God "left" Satan to reap the full results of his sin, he would have perished, but it would not have been apparent to the onlooking angels that his death was the inevitable result of sin. It took the cross to clarify this. Satan's death would have been misinterpreted as an arbitrary act of power on the part of God. 2. What do you think the loyal angels think about this reason as to why Satan is still alive? I think they think God was right to act as He did, to allow things to play out so there would be no seed of doubt. 3. What do you think the loyal angels think will cause Satan to suffer and die at the end of time? Death is the inevitable result of sin. The angels understand this. The cross made this clear. Christ was made to be sin for us and died as the result. 4. When do you think the loyal angels understood how and why Satan will die at the end of time? The cross made this clear. This is why EGW explained this in the chapter "It Is Finished," which is dealing with what the cross accomplished. 5. When do you think the loyal angels were ready for Satan to suffer and die for his sins? At the cross. 6. Do you think there was ever a time before the cross that the loyal angels thought they were ready for Satan to suffer and die for his sins? They may have thought they were ready, but they weren't until the cross.
7. Do you think the loyal angels understood things well enough before the cross for Satan to suffer and die for his sins without fearing God forever thereafter?
According to the SOP, God did not leave Satan to reap the result of his sin to avoid causing a seed of doubt. I think it took the cross to remove the possibility of a seed of doubt arising. It depends on the context, Tom. God will execute the death penalty. He will punish sinners, and they will suffer emotionally and physically like Jesus did. God is not, however, torturing or tormenting them. Since you've changed your stance regarding flame engulfing the wicked, pending further clarification of what role you think the literal fire causes in their suffering, I won't comment further, as I'm not sure what your thinking is. In answer to your question – I don’t believe God will use literal fire to burn people alive for many days or many hours. Now, I have a question for you – Do you think God has ever employed the “withdraw and permit” method of punishment to allow literal fire to burn people alive? Please elaborate on your answer. Thank you. I don't think a literal fire is going to burn people alive. I thought you were saying this too. I'm confused. Are you or are you not saying that a literal fire will burn people alive? You're saying not, right? I've been arguing all along against this idea and I understood you to say that you changed your thinking due to me. So why are you asking me if I believe something which is the very thing I've been arguing against, and which, I understood you to say, caused you to change your mind? 1. Do you think it is accurate to say God can do no wrong? Of course not. I don't understand why you'd ask a question like this. 2. And, do you think it is accurate to conclude that no matter how “strange” a certain act may seem to us, the fact God did it is proof it was right and righteous? No, I don't think that's accurate. I think it's likely in this case that we're wrong in thinking that God did the certain act. 3. For example, according to you, God has on several occasions withdrew His protection and permitted the pent up forces of nature to implode upon itself thus killing sinners in the process. I've never said nature "implodes upon itself." I've said that the laws of nature are not self-acting (quoting Ellen White) and that God protects us. I've also said that if God withdraws, chaos results, which can happen in a number of different ways, including natural disasters. Of course, natural disasters can happen as a matter of course, due to things like conflicting air masses over moist water, and so forth. Do you think these kinds of “strange acts” are consistent with the loving and merciful character of God, and that allowing sinners to die this way was right and righteous? As they actually happen, yes. I think people can be confused about what's happening, and the confused idea would not necessarily be consistent with God's loving and merciful character. 4. And, do you think it is accurate to conclude that if God were to do such “strange acts” in the future that it would be right and righteous by virtue of the fact it is God who did it? Who does something doesn't make it right or wrong. I think it's important that we understand the underlying principles of God's character and kingdom. Otherwise we may misinterpret what's happening. This is a very important point. Take, for example, the persecution of Christ. Those who were torturing and killing Christ interpreted events as God's being right and righteous when, in reality, these evil men were being wicked and unrighteous. So we need to get what's actually happening right. And this is dependent upon rightly understanding God's character and the principles of His kingdom.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Tom]
#109601
03/08/09 11:17 PM
03/08/09 11:17 PM
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Your view of the firelight of God's glory seems to assume unpardonable sinners are capable of comprehending His character to such a degree that it causes to them suffer unimaginable emotional agony and physical pain. Here's what I think: . He would make them happy if He could do so in accordance with the laws of His government and the justice of His character. He surrounds them with the tokens of His love, He grants them a knowledge of His law, and follows them with the offers of His mercy; but they despise His love, make void His law, and reject His mercy. While constantly receiving His gifts, they dishonor the Giver; they hate God because they know that He abhors their sins. The Lord bears long with their perversity; but the decisive hour will come at last, when their destiny is to be decided. Will He then chain these rebels to His side? Will He force them to do His will?
Those who have chosen Satan as their leader and have been controlled by his power are not prepared to enter the presence of God. Pride, deception, licentiousness, cruelty, have become fixed in their characters. Can they enter heaven to dwell forever with those whom they despised and hated on earth? Truth will never be agreeable to a liar; meekness will not satisfy self-esteem and pride; purity is not acceptable to the corrupt; disinterested love does not appear attractive to the selfish. What source of enjoyment could heaven offer to those who are wholly absorbed in earthly and selfish interests?
Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to heaven and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there,-- every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor of God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sitteth upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation
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were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. (GC 541-543) Notice in particular the underlined part. "They would welcome destruction".
But the Bible says, "Spiritual things are spiritually discerned."
The expression, "He that hath an ear, let him hear," implies the eye salve of spiritual discernment is necessary to comprehend the deep things of God. It wasn't the character of Christ that caused sinners to fear and quiver in His presence; it was divinity flashing through humanity.
That's what divinity flashing through humanity is, as I explained. I explained how this could be seen as well by comparing DA 108 with the description of the cleansing of the temple.
You seem to think comprehending His character is what forces sinners to fear for their lives. Please explain to me how you think God makes their dark and unpardonable minds to comprehend the things they were not naturally able to do so previously?
See GC 541-543 above. I have modified your summary of my view to agree with what I actually believe:
The firelight of God's glory causes the wicked to fear God and to somehow suffer emotionally in proportion and in duration to their sinfulness. You don't see that this firelight has anything to do with God's character? Even though we're told that the glory of God is His character, and the very next sentence after the statement that the "light of the glory of God will destroy them" speaks of "Christ, the revealer of God's character"? Although we do not have enough inspired information to know just exactly how the wicked will suffer physically, but it seems reasonable to conclude that literal fire will play a part in it. This is pretty vague. It sounds like you're saying you don't know. Do you agree with how I labeled the other passages posted above? Also, what is it about the following two passages that make you think they are describing primarily a symbolic fire: DA 108 says this: At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thess. 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked.
In the time of John the Baptist, Christ was about to appear as the revealer of the character of God. His very presence would make manifest to men their sin. Only as they were willing to be purged from sin could they enter into fellowship with Him. Only the pure in heart could abide in His presence. The "brightness of His coming" is "the light of the glory of God" which "imparts life to the righteous." Since literal fire does not impart life to the rightness, the fire cannot be literal. Similarly for post 8, since it's dealing with the same event. Do you think you know when fire in a vision is literal and symbolic? If so, please explain what criteria you use to determine when a vision is describing literal fire and symbolic fire. Thank you. I compare the vision with other things written which deal with the same subject. PS - Do you know which passages describe literal fire burning deceased sinners to ashes at the end of time? If so, please post them. Mal. 3 is one.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Tom]
#109616
03/09/09 12:14 PM
03/09/09 12:14 PM
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Bob, thank you for *finally* responding to my post. Notice this is page 48. I responded on page 37. If you had simply responded to my post 11 pages ago, instead of falsely asserting that your questions hadn't been answered, we could have addressed these things 11 pages ago.
The way a dialog works is one person says something, and another responds, and the first person responds to that and so forth. If you will follow this pattern, while we may not agree with each other, at least we can have more meaningful conversations.
I will confess to the fact that I read your response to the first two questions in that post and notice that they did not make any attempt at all to find the answer "in the text" but rather attempted to go to "anywhere BUT the text" to come up with "something entirely different" -- which ended my pursuit of that post too early to see that some of your other answers actually did go directly to the later questions posted - (though consistently not quoting anything in GC672-673 as you did so) I am sorry for missing that. in Christ, Bob
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Tom]
#109617
03/09/09 12:24 PM
03/09/09 12:24 PM
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ELLEN WHITE (Not Bob) ====================================================== Notice carefully that what is described below is REAL fire -- to the point that it is coming from Rocks and even reshaping the surface of the earth! http://egwdatabase.whiteestate.org/nxt/g...hapter01998.htm"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething 673 lake of fire. It is the time of the judgement and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2} [/color] The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished “according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1} Great Controversy P 486 http://egwdatabase.whiteestate.org/nxt/g...hapter01984.htmIn the typical service the high priest, having made the atonement for Israel, came forth and blessed the congregation. So Christ, at the close of His work as mediator, will appear, "without sin unto salvation" (Hebrews 9:28), to bless His waiting people with eternal life. As the priest, in removing the sins from the sanctuary, confessed them upon the head of the scapegoat, so Christ will place all these sins upon Satan, the originator and instigator of sin. The scapegoat, bearing the sins of Israel, was sent away "unto a land not inhabited" (Leviticus 16:22); so Satan, bearing the guilt of all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit, will be for a thousand years confined to the earth, which will then be desolate, without inhabitant, and he will at last suffer the
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full penalty of sin in the fires that shall destroy all the wicked. [/b]; Thus the great plan of redemption will reach its accomplishment in the final eradication of sin and the deliverance of all who have been willing to renounce evil. {GC 485.3} [/quote] ================================================== Questions for the reader. 1. What does the phrase “His fury upon all their armies” refer too in the text above”? 2. What does the phrase “Suffer the full penalty of sin in the fires” refer to – in the text above? 3. Is it the same as the phrase above “The full penalty of the LAW has been visited ”?? 4. When the text speaks of those who “suffer for many days” does this mean all or just some? 5. When the text says that by comparison “he is still to live and suffer on” after all others have perished… is that fair? 6. In the text the argument is made that in this way “the demands of justice have been met” is that really true as you see it? 7. In the text above when it is said that ”punishment is far greater” for Satan than for others suffering there – are ALL punished?? ========================= B:1. What does the phrase “His fury upon all their armies” refer too in the text above”? T:This refers to the principles discussed previously in the GC 35, 36, 14 MR 3 quotes and so forth.
B:A good example of NOT showing anything at all "in the text" of GC 672.
A good example of no reference at all to "his fury upon all their armies" being mentioned
"His fury upon all their armies" is simply a reference to Isaiah. The only conclusion one can make about this phrase, from the text, is that Ellen White felt it was applicable to the scene she was describing. Bob, have you read the passages cited? The passages cited explain the concept of God's wrath, which is the principle this text is dealing with. The key is the way that Ellen White is using it, placing it in with the other texts and comments "in the text above" she decides to include with it - showing it's full meaning in the Lake of Fire event she is then spending at least 2 pages in describing "in detail". "Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething 673 lake of fire. It is the time of the judgement and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2} [/color] The "No fire here, no wrath here, no punishment here" part of this description is not only missing - it appears to be directly refuted. in Christ, Bob
Last edited by Bobryan; 03/09/09 12:25 PM.
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Bobryan]
#109618
03/09/09 12:45 PM
03/09/09 12:45 PM
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ELLEN WHITE (Not Bob) ====================================================== Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished “according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1} Great Controversy P 486 http://egwdatabase.whiteestate.org/nxt/g...hapter01984.htmIn the typical service the high priest, having made the atonement for Israel, came forth and blessed the congregation. So Christ, at the close of His work as mediator, will appear, "without sin unto salvation" (Hebrews 9:28), to bless His waiting people with eternal life. As the priest, in removing the sins from the sanctuary, confessed them upon the head of the scapegoat, so Christ will place all these sins upon Satan, the originator and instigator of sin. The scapegoat, bearing the sins of Israel, was sent away "unto a land not inhabited" (Leviticus 16:22); so Satan, bearing the guilt of all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit, will be for a thousand years confined to the earth, which will then be desolate, without inhabitant, and he will at last suffer the
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full penalty of sin in the fires that shall destroy all the wicked. [/b]; Thus the great plan of redemption will reach its accomplishment in the final eradication of sin and the deliverance of all who have been willing to renounce evil. {GC 485.3} ================================================== Questions for the reader. 2. What does the phrase “Suffer the full penalty of sin in the fires” refer to – in the text above?
B:2. What does the phrase “Suffer the full penalty of sin in the fires” refer to – in the text above?
T:This was discussed previously as well.
B:Just not showing anything "in the text" of GC 672 for an answer.
I don't understand what you're saying. "Suffer the full penalty of sin in the fires" is something which has been explained at length. In this text it means the same thing as it does in other texts, assuming Ellen White isn't contradicting herself.
I see so "some suffering for many days" while others are consumed in an instant is an example of meeting out the full penalty of the law for each sin comitted where some owe much and others do not owe as much. And owing much - results in suffering in the fire and brimstone lake of fire "for many days" for "some"? Just as the text says? Do you mean "that consistency"?
So it doesn't matter if the principle of "suffer the full penalty of sin in the fires" is discussed in the context of this text or another text. The principle is the same.
On the contrary the "detail" of some suffering for many days while others being consumed in an instant is not referenced in even one of your 'preferred other texts' to look at other than GC 672-673. I think we all see that.
I wrote a detailed expression of this in reference to DA 107-108.
Indeed - that was yet another good example of no reference at all to "some suffering for many days while others are consumed in an instant" as the means by which in the 2nd death "the full penalty of the law" against sin is visited. I think we can all see that.
This explains how the fires of burning destroy sin. You see that sin is consumed by the fire of God.
The kind of fire that is coming from "every yawning chasm where the very rocks are on fire" - the one that is in fact "Fire and brimstone" kinda fire as John tells us -- is not the issue. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething 673 The issue is that in it's buring of both the elements and the wicked - such that SOME of the wicked live and suffer on "for many days" in that "the very rocks are on fire" kinda fire -- as the means for "visiting the full penalty of the law" against each sin comitted, seems to be diametrically opposed to what you are proposing. Did I miss something in your argument?
This is not a literal fire, but a spiritual one.
That is a funny way to paraphrase - Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething 673 Iit is instructive that GC 672 makes no mention of "spiritual rocks are on fire" and "spiritual chasms producing fire" and that 2Peter 3 makes no mention of the "elements melt with a fervent spiritual heat" Lot's of details seem to be missing for you -- primarly that not once in all of Ellen White's statements or in the Bible do we EVER see "this is not a literal fire but a spiritual one" EVER stated - no not even once. To get that quote - we need to quote your authorship in your post - for that is the only place we find it.
B 3. Is it the same as the phrase above “The full penalty of the LAW has been visited ”??
T. The full penalty of the law being visited means the same thing here as elsewhere. She doesn't speak out of both sides of her mouth, meaning one thing in one place and one thing in another when discussing exactly the same principle.
Again - "some suffer for many days" in that "lake of fire and brimstone" (to quote the bible and Ellen White). IN THIS way - - says Ellen White "the FULL PENALTY" of the Law is visited. Instead of proclaiming the abolition of the law, Calvary's cross proclaims in thunder tones its immutable and eternal character. Could the law have been abolished, and the government of heaven and earth and the unnumbered worlds of God maintained, Christ need not have died. The death of Christ was to forever settle the question of the validity of the law of Jehovah. Having suffered the full penalty for a guilty world, Jesus became the mediator between God and man, to restore the repenting soul to favor with God by giving him grace to keep the law of the Most High.(Reflecting Christ, page 53) Here is an excellent point. What you SEE being sufferred in the torment of "some for many days" in that "lake of fire and brimstone" while others are "consumed in an instant" is the REAL price ALSO PAID by Christ only in unseen form. 4. When the text speaks of those who “suffer for many days” does this mean all or just some? This isn't a very clear question. Try again please. Obviously it is simply getting to "another detail" that your view seems to have no place at all for in HOW the "full penalty of the law" is being paid (in Ellen White's words) through what she calls "Punishment" of the wicked in the Lake of Fire. in Christ, Bob
Last edited by Bobryan; 03/09/09 12:51 PM.
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Bobryan]
#109677
03/10/09 02:48 PM
03/10/09 02:48 PM
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M: It wasn’t until divinity flashed through humanity that sinners feared and felt guilty in the presence of Jesus.
T: Divinity flashing through humanity is precisely the character of God being revealed. This can be seen by comparing DA 108 with the DA comments regarding the cleansing of the temple. In DA 108, the wicked cannot abide Christ presence, because He is revealing the character of God. In the DA passage speaking of the temple building, she expresses the same thought with the language "divinity flashed through humanity," which result in their being aware of their sin. It is the revelation of God which put the finger to our sin. His goodness makes clear our filthiness. The goodness of God leads us to repentance. Yes, divinity flashing through humanity caused people to fear and feel guilty. It has the same effect on evil angels. Are you saying it was the contrast between their sinfulness and Jesus’ sinlessness that caused them to fear and feel guilty? Also, my point is that it didn’t happen when divinity wasn’t flashing through humanity. True, sinners felt uneasy around Jesus, but His presence didn’t cause them to fear for their lives. What is it about the radiant firelight of God’s glory that flashed through Jesus’ humanity from time to time that caused sinners to comprehend the terrifying contrast between their sinfulness and Jesus’ sinlessness and caused them to fear for their lives? Why weren’t sinners capable of this kind of comprehension when divinity wasn’t flashing through humanity? What laws or dynamics were at work? M: Spiritual photosynthesis? I do not pretend to understand how the radiant firelight emanating from God’s physical being and presence can take or give life.
T: Why not trade your theory for one you can understand?
M: Comments like this are harmful not helpful, Tom.
T: I think they are. I think a large weakness in many of the positions you hold is that they're logical, not even to you. This should lead you to theories which are logical. That's the hope, anyway. In reality you are criticizing my view of the truth, which I take as an attack against me personally. So please be careful. Thank you. Surely you can share the truth as you see it without having to condemn and criticize me or my view of the truth. M: It’s hard to read passages like the ones above and not think of Raiders of the Lost Ark.
T: Only if one reads these things superficially, IMO. The issue is one of the spirit, not of the flesh. The glory that shone on the face of Moses was a physical manifestation of a spiritual reality, which was the revelation of the glory of God to Moses, which was God's character (there's no question on this point, right? If there is, it's easily verified that the glory of God revealed to Moses was His character.)
So God revealed His character to Moses. That resulted in a physical manifestation, the beaming of Moses' face. But Moses was a human being with sinful flesh, just like the rest. If the reason for the Israelite's inability to look on Moses' face were not spiritual but physical, then surely Moses himself would have been suffering himself. That is, he wouldn't have been able to stand the glory of his own face; after all, it that glory would have been reflecting right to eyes, inches away. Yes, the glory of God includes His character, but it also includes the firelight of His radiance. A literal light emanates from God that has a physical effect, for weal or woe, on those around Him. I’m glad you acknowledge this point. And I’m sure you’ll agree that the reflected light emanating from Moses skin was not nearly as intense or powerful as the Source. The point is the radiant firelight emanating from God has a negative physical effect on sinful flesh (skin), namely, it causes it burn. This point does not ignore the fact it also causes sinners to comprehend the terrifying contrast between their sinfulness and God’s sinlessness. Both points are true. Do you agree? BTW, another example of something that resembles the sword-like beams of light emanating from the ark in Raiders of the Lost Ark is Ellen’s description of the angels God stationed to prevent sinners from accessing the tree of life. Listen: But after man's fall, holy angels were immediately commissioned to guard the tree of life. Around these angels flashed beams of light having the appearance of a glittering sword. None of the family of Adam were permitted to pass the barrier to partake of the life-giving fruit; hence there is not an immortal sinner. {PP 60.3} M: I realize you firmly believe any view of these facts that contradict your understanding of them is wrong and harmful. As such it is hard to imagine you discussing any other view objectively. For example, death and capital punishment both refer to death. Satan has regularly appeared in the presence of God without being consumed by the firelight of His glory.
And yet this is the very source of fire you claim will play a part in the death of Satan at the end of time. Or, do you think he will die of other combination of causes? If so, what do think will cause Satan to die? Do you think the glory of God reacting with the sin in Satan will cause him to die like collateral damage?
Or, do you think sin alone will kill Satan? If so, please post inspired passages which clearly say so, as opposed to passages that require the art of fanciful logic and elaborate deductions and the stringing together of loosely related insights to arrive at a new and original idea.
T: The DA passage says that if God left Satan to reap the full result of his sin, he would have perished, but He did not do so because it would not have appeared to the other angels that death was the inevitable result of sin. So, obviously, God is not leaving Satan to reap the full result of his sin. That's why he doesn't die. To read into this passage the idea that God will kill those who sin is to destroy her whole argument. It would fly in the face of that which she emphasized ten times in a row.
Furthermore, there's no way to characterize God's "leaving" Satan to reap the full result of his sin as God's causing Satan to die. If Satan dies because God kills him, that could hardly be characterized as God's "leaving" Satan to die. "Leaving" and "causing" are contrary thoughts. She would have had to write something like, "Had God invoked capital punishment upon Satan in the beginning, it would not have been understood that this was in order" (i.e., that Satan deserved this). But this isn't her argument at all! Her argument is that had God done this, what was really happening would have been misunderstood. You're not addressing this point. Wow! Did you really just not answer my question? Did you really just rely on the art of fanciful logic and word play? Did you really just not post a passage which plainly says, “Sin alone will kill Satan at the end of time when God withdraws His protection and permits sin to run its natural course”? Come on, Tom, surely you can do better than that! Pretend for a moment that these kinds of DA insights are failing to convince me that sin alone is what causes sinners to suffer and die at the end of time. With this in mind, please rely on passages that plainly say, “Sin alone will cause sinners to suffer and die at the end of time when God withdraws His protection and permits sin to run its natural course.” M: Tom, I realize you believe sin, not God, is what punishes and kills sinners at the end of time. I also realize you think if God had allowed sin to punish and kill Satan in the beginning that the loyal angels would have assumed God, not sin, punished and killed him, and that they would have feared God forever not understanding why He punished and killed him.
T: God punishes the wicked, but the punishment is not an arbitrary act of power on the part of God. It is a giving up on the part of God ("How can I give you up?"). What causes the death of the wicked is sin -- it's fine to characterize my view as saying that. I've not said that sin is what "punishes and kills sinners." What I've said is that the inevitable result of sin is death, or, using other words, that sin causes death (which is the same thing; if the inevitable result of A is B then A causes B, assuming no independent source C is involved). 1. When is it true that “the inevitable result of sin is death”? When God stops doing something? 2. Are you saying God will punish sinners by withdrawing His protection and permitting sin to run its natural course which thereby kills them in the process? 3. How will sin cause sinners to suffer and die? What laws or dynamic will be at work? 4. In your algebraic formula above what do A and B symbolize?
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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