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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10964
11/03/04 07:48 PM
11/03/04 07:48 PM
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Mike:
In regard to Tom Ewall's post below and your subsequent response:
What do you mean "connected to Christ"? You wrote earlier that before we can sin, we have to disconnect ourselves from Christ. What does that mean? What about a reactive sin, like thinking or saying a bad word when someone cuts you off in traffic? |
| quote: Tom Ewall |
Regarding unintentional, spontaneous outbursts of sin, such as cursing when you hit your finger with a hammer, God can even empower us to respond in a Christlike manner under such circumstances. There is no situation God cannot empower us to be Christlike. |
| quote: Mike Lowe |
Your response, while a true statement, avoided answering the question. I don't think Tom refutes God's ability to empower us.
The question was specifically, how exactly does one go about "disconnecting from Christ" so that they can swear when cut off in traffic or when they hit their finger with the hammer? That is, explain the process required to disconnect oneself from Christ.
For example, take someone who has a bad habit of swearing when things like that happen. He has accepted Christ as his Saviour and is born again. He is hanging a picture on the wall and hits his finger with the hammer.
Are you saying that he first tells Christ to get lost so that he can swear, waits to make sure Christ has vacated, and then swears?
Tom, isn't this more or less what you were asking?
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10965
11/03/04 08:47 PM
11/03/04 08:47 PM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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We're talking about unintentional sins, which are sins we commit spontaneously. The question is - Can the grace of God empower us to avoid sinning under such circumstances. The answer seems to be, Yes. If we have no problem with this particular insight then we should be able to understand why it is that we sometimes commit unintentional sins.
Spontaneous sins, from my experience, are committed unconsciously, that is, we don't reason it out from cause to effect before we blow it. It's something we do by default, which is related to the strength of that particular weakness. In order to overcome such recurring incidences we must pray without ceasing, because at any moment something might happen that preys on our weaknesses, our predisposition to sin.
Several years ago I began praying that God would grant, what I call, mind time, time to think about what I'm doing before I do it. He answered my prayer immediately. It's amazing, there's no other way to describe it. It's almost like everything goes into slow motion. Now, I have plenty of time to stay connected to Jesus and to imitate His example.
Which dosen't mean I always succeed in making the right choice. But I know victory is mine if and when I want it. If I fail now it's because I was too tired to care, or some other inexcusable reason. Not that I believe unintentional sinning is excusable, because it isn't. There is no excuse for any sin, no matter how tired or uncaring we might feel at the time. Salvation is a thorough work, and victory is available every time, all the time. Thank you, Jesus.
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10966
11/03/04 08:53 PM
11/03/04 08:53 PM
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With all due respect, Mike, the following quote of yours contradicts your previous statements (emphasis added):
Will, just because you curse when you flub up doesn't mean you were never converted or born again. It's just that sin separates us from Jesus, that's why we curse instead of resist. |
| quote: Mike Lowe |
You have said many many times, that it's impossible for one to sin while connected to Jesus. One must first disconnect himself from Christ before being able to commit sin.
But here you say that it is sin itself which separates us from Him, instead of separation being a prerequisite for sin.
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10967
11/03/04 09:15 PM
11/03/04 09:15 PM
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We're talking about unintentional sins, which are sins we commit spontaneously. The question is - Can the grace of God empower us to avoid sinning under such circumstances. The answer seems to be, Yes. |
| quote: Mike Lowe |
No, Mike, that was not the question. I thought the question was quite clear.
You have stated numerous times that before one can commit a known sin, one must first disconnect from Christ.
Since swearing and taking the Lord's name in vain is a known sin, how does such a person as described disconnect himself from Christ between the time the hammer hits his finger and the time he utters the curse?
Or is it instead as you have said just once that I know of before, "that sin separates us from Jesus"
Many of us are just trying to understand the message you are trying to convey. You seldom make it an easy thing to do.
The question is the one above in bold, light blue.
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10968
11/03/04 09:38 PM
11/03/04 09:38 PM
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...at which time [Second Coming]we will be made physically perfect too. But not intellectually perfect. Eternity isn't long enough to exhaust our potential to learn more and more. Also, we will continue to mature morally throughout eternity. |
| quote: Mike Lowe |
Do you truly think that in the New Earth, we will have intellectual flaws (imperfections)?
If continuing to mature morally throughout eternity does not mean we are morally imperfect, why would learning more and more throughout eternity mean that we are not intellectually perfect?
It would seem to me that just as a budding flower is not imperfect while it is growing into a mature flower, neither would our intellect be imperfect as we grow and mature intellectually.
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10969
11/03/04 10:19 PM
11/03/04 10:19 PM
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1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
So long as we are connected to Christ, we do not and cannot commit a known sin. |
| quote: Mike Lowe |
Why limit this to known sins? The verse itself certainly does not qualify the type of sin being talked about. Is it possible to commit any sin, whether known or unknown, while connected to Christ?
Just a few verses up 1 John 3:6, which reads: Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. |
| 1 John 3:6 |
Would you say that anytime a person sins, it means that he does not know Him nor has seen Him? It certainly seems that this verse could be interpreted to mean that once we abide in Christ, then we would never ever sin again. For if we sin, we have not seen Him nor do we know Him. And how could we have abided in him if we never seen Him nor knew Him?
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10970
11/04/04 04:05 PM
11/04/04 04:05 PM
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Unlike Jesus, however, we may make mistakes before we reach the point where we obey naturally and automatically, a life of continual obedience. |
| quote: Mike Lowe |
I agree with you, Mike, that it is not a must that we make a mistake after rebirth.
But I am curious, Mike. Do you think that the frequency of mistakes would be consistent throughout the growth towards natural, automatic obedience? Or do you think the frequency of mistakes would lessen as such a person reaches the point of natural, automatic obedience?
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10971
11/04/04 05:08 PM
11/04/04 05:08 PM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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DenBorg, technically separation precedes sinning. At least, that’s what I believe. Thank you for pointing that out. However, in another sense separation is also the result of sinning. When we stop partaking of the divine nature, which is what empowers us to imitate the example of Jesus, we separate ourselves from God, from our only source of success. Once we disconnect ourselves from Jesus we are immediately incapable of being Christlike and, as such, we are in a sinful state, which is manifested in any number of ways – subtle sins or blatant ones. Regardless of whether or not we can detect our sin (self-righteousness is harder to discern as a sin) we are, nevertheless, in a state of sin when we’re not abiding in Jesus.
The difference between a seed and a blossom is not sin or imperfection, but rather the difference has to do with degrees of maturation. Perfection is inherent in the seed itself, and this perfection unfolds as the plant grows and matures. It is perfect at every stage of growth. The unrevealed portion of a developing plant does not symbolize sin or imperfection, instead it illustrates how Christ matured in the fruits of the Spirit as He grew from childhood to manhood. The same thing applies to newborn babes in Christ as they grow in grace and mature morally. The seed that God implants in them, which Paul refers to as the mind of the new man, comes complete with all the righteous character attributes of God and all of the fruits of Spirit. We are born again with each one of these traits and qualities, and as we grow and mature they shine brighter and brighter, more and more unto the perfect day.
ML 250 "The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul." Through obedience comes sanctification of body, soul, and spirit. This sanctification is a progressive work, and an advance from one stage of perfection to another. {ML 250.4}
DA 676 When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing. {DA 676.4}
COL 330 All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. {COL 330.2}
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Ephesians 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10972
11/04/04 05:25 PM
11/04/04 05:25 PM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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quote: Since swearing and taking the Lord's name in vain is a known sin, how does such a person as described disconnect himself from Christ between the time the hammer hits his finger and the time he utters the curse?
Again, I suspect we sin unintentionally by default, it's what we do naturally and instinctively. By the way, I believe an unintentional sin is a known sin, otherwise we wouldn’t think of it as a sin. We commit unknown sins unwittingly, not intentionally or unintentionally. But committing a known sin by default is no excuse for sinning unintentionally. Do we agree on that point? If so, then the reason why we commit unintentional sins, why and when we disconnect from Jesus, is not as important as learning how to stay connected to Christ under those types of situations, that is, under circumstances where we tend to sin unintentionally. Why we sin is a mystery. It is only as we continue to partake of the divine nature that we are able to imitate the example of Jesus under all situations, including those tense times when we’re more likely to sin unintentionally. As I suggested before, I believe the solution to the problem is to practice the habit of praying without ceasing.
GC 492 Sin is an intruder, for whose presence no reason can be given. It is mysterious, unaccountable; to excuse it is to defend it. Could excuse for it be found, or cause be shown for its existence, it would cease to be sin. {GC 492.2}
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10973
11/04/04 06:01 PM
11/04/04 06:01 PM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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In his First Epistle I believe John is saying that born again believers do not and cannot commit a known sin while abiding in Christ because he found it to be true through personal experience. He may very well be talking about all types of sin, known and unknown, but I doubt it, because he is addressing Christians in general, not just fully developed, well seasoned believers, full of wisdom and years of experience. When he says, Whoever sins has neither seen or known Jesus, I believe he is talking about the contrast between those who are connected to Jesus and those who are not. But if and when a believer disconnects from Jesus all he can do is sin. When we take our eyes off Jesus we can’t see Him, and we sin, because without Jesus all we can do is sin. To know Jesus is to show Him in our everyday life and choices. We can’t do this when we’re disconnected from Him. “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” 1 John 3:9, 10. Christians are manifested by their Christlike choices and behaviour, and non-Christians are manifested by their unChristlike choices and behaviour. The difference is whether or not we have been born again and continue to abide in Jesus. quote: But I am curious, Mike. Do you think that the frequency of mistakes would be consistent throughout the growth towards natural, automatic obedience? Or do you think the frequency of mistakes would lessen as such a person reaches the point of natural, automatic obedience?
First of all, I think it is important that we understand and believe that there is no excuse for committing known sins.
DA 311 The tempter's agency is not to be accounted an excuse for one wrong act. Satan is jubilant when he hears the professed followers of Christ making excuses for their deformity of character. It is these excuses that lead to sin. There is no excuse for sinning. A holy temper, a Christlike life, is accessible to every repenting, believing child of God. {DA 311.3}
I do not believe making mistakes is necessary in order to become more and more like Jesus. Nor do I believe becoming less and less like Satan is the same thing as becoming more and more like Jesus. Satan is not the opposite of God. God has no opposite. And neither is sinning the opposite of righteousness by faith. There is no excuse for falling short of the glory of God. And just because we sometimes do commit known sins it does not mean we cannot successfully recognize and resist every known sin, every time we are tempted, from henceforth until Jesus returns.
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