Michael, tell me if I'm understanding you correctly. You believe that if a person is "connected" to Jesus, he cannot sin. If he is not "connected" to Jesus, he cannot do anything but sin.

I assume being "connected" to Jesus is something we do, by prayer, mediation, Bible study, etc. Is that correct?

John wrote that whoever is born of God cannot sin, right? He didn't say anything about being "connected" to Jesus. So if a person commits a sin, that means they are not born again?

Yes, that's exactly what I believe the Bible says about sin and salvation. And John, more than anyone else, articulated Jesus' vine and branch illustration, that is, the idea of abiding in Him, staying connected to Him, so that we can experience the joy of Spirit powered obedience, the abundant life. I realize Jesus' metaphor is somewhat elusive, but salvation is a miracle from beginning to end, and who can understand miracles? They defy reason. That's why it's easier to experience than it is to explain. Notice how Sister White talks about it, and the Scriptures she uses.

DA 494, 495
The plan of redemption is so far-reaching that philosophy cannot explain it. It will ever remain a mystery that the most profound reasoning cannot fathom. The science of salvation cannot be explained; but it can be known by experience. Only he who sees his own sinfulness can discern the preciousness of the Saviour. {DA 494.4}

FE 125, 126
Those who humbly and prayerfully search the Scriptures, to know and to do God's will, will not be in doubt of their obligations to God. For "if any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine." If you would know the mystery of godliness, you must follow the plain word of truth,--feeling or no feeling, emotion or no emotion. Obedience must be rendered from a sense of principle, and the right must be pursued under all circumstances. This is the character that is elected of God unto salvation. The test of a genuine Christian is given in the word of God. Says Jesus, "If ye love Me, keep My commandments." "He that hath My commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me: and he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father, and I will love him, and will manifest Myself to him. . . . If a man love Me, he will keep My words: and My Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth Me not keepeth not My sayings: and the word which ye hear is not Mine, but the Father's which sent Me." {FE 125.2}

Here are the conditions upon which every soul will be elected to eternal life. Your obedience to God's commandments will prove your right to an inheritance with the saints in light. God has elected a certain excellence of character; and every one who, through the grace of Christ, shall reach the standard of His requirement, will have an abundant entrance into the kingdom of glory. All who would reach this standard of character, will have to employ the means that God has provided to this end. If you would inherit the rest that remaineth for the children of God, you must become a co-laborer with God. You are elected to wear the yoke of Christ,--to bear His burden, to lift His cross. You are to be diligent "to make your calling and election sure." Search the Scriptures, and you will see that not a son or a daughter of Adam is elected to be saved in disobedience to God's law. The world makes void the law of God; but Christians are chosen to sanctification through obedience to the truth. They are elected to bear the cross, if they would wear the crown. {FE 125.3}

So your view is that we are something like a vacuum cleaner which needs to be plugged in in order to have power? Those who aren't plugged in can do nothing but sin whereas those who are plugged in cannot sin, unless they unplug themselves.

How do we stay plugged in?

Your assertion that a person who is not converted can do nothing but sin strikes me as Calvanistic. I'm not aware that as Seventh-day Adventists we have any such tradition. I'm curious as to where you got such an idea. Inspiration is full of examples of unconverted people in situations where choices were to be made, some of which would be sin and some of which not. According to your view, apparently, even if the choice was made not to sin, that would still be sin.

Yes, plugged in like a vacuum cleaner, because otherwise, without Jesus, life sucks. Sorry, couldn't resist that one. I normally use the electric trolley car illustration. My grandpa, a kind and loving soul, was a trolley car operator, back in the heyday, in good ole San Francisco. So long as we are connected to Jesus we have the power necessary to override the sinful thoughts and feelings generated and communicated by our sinful nature, and, which is even more rewarding, we have what it takes to imitate the lovely example of sweet Jesus. That's what I love most about Christianity and the truth as it is in Jesus.

How do we stay plugged in to Jesus? I like that quote you use so often. How does it go again? If we do not resist or frustrate the grace of God, then He will empower us to experience His promises. That's it in a nutshell. The four Christian disciplines are, of course, indispensable: Bible study, prayer, fellowship and outreach. Also, avoiding worldly places, people and things is needful too. Reading books like Steps to Christ and The Desire of Ages and Christ's Object Lessons and Thoughts from the Mount of Blessing is invaluable. But nothing, absolutely nothing, compares with hanging out with Jesus, as with a best friend. It takes a miracle.

Yeah, I know what you mean about saying even the good things we do, apart from being connected to Jesus, are sins. It's hard to imagine that a good atheist is actually sinning when he donates millions of dollars to help provide relief for the suffering people around the world. But the Bible says, "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin." Rom 14:23. Even though the godly things we do are the result of the promptings of God, if we do them in our own strength, without the aid of Jesus, they do not count as righteousness by faith, and faith is the only that matters to God, and counts toward salvation. So, regardless of how well mannered and decent we might manage to be, without Jesus, it is fuel for the fire. In the final analysis, the fruit of faith is the only thing that will survive the scrutiny of judgment. Which is right.

Well Mike, I see things much differently than you do. BTW, I liked your pun!

One good thing about our conversation is it helps to figure out how better to express ideas. I know I see things much differently than you do, but don't know how to best express my thoughts.

I'll start out from the point where we are, I believe, in agreement. That is, that the most important thing is the victory of Christ in the Great Controversy.

The Great Controversy is about who is telling the truth, God or Satan. Satan has presented God as being untrustworthy, and not having our best interests at heart. Satan has presented God as basically selfish.

Because man bought into Satan's lies, he has been profoundly affected by these dark thoughts of God, even into the depths of the psyche. Because man has been so confused about the truth about God, God sent His Son to reveal the truth. In Christ, we see God as He really is.

God is not a respector of persons. Anyone who is not against Him is for Him. He considers all to be His friend (see, for example, how Christ addressed Jesus when He was betrayed). What causes people to be lost has nothing to do with God, but with the people themselves.

God is constantly revealing Himself in Christ to all. A person may respond to that revelation in various ways. At a given time a person may respond dramatically, and this we see as an instantaneous conversion. However, the conversion may had been going on for some time.

Let's consider Nicodemus as an example. When was Nicodemus converted? We don't really know, but perhaps it wasn't until after the cross. However, Nicodemus demonstrated he was cooperating with Christ's purposes in the counsel he was giving to the Pharisees. I don't see how Nicodemus' work there could be consitituted as "sin."

I believe anyone, whether believer or not, can choose to sin or not sin, or choose to do righteousness or not. It's true that whoever commits sin is a servant of sin, but God's grace is more powerful than sin and it is constantly being poured out upon all so that anyone can choose to resist. A person can choose to overcome sin before being converted.

Here's a concrete example. Consider an alcoholic. An alcholic can overcome the addiction of alcohol without being converted. That's an example of a sin being overcome. Certainly the sin is overcome by the grace of God, even if the former alcholic doesn't acknowledge it. You might argue that the former alcholic is being selfish in his choice, so in some sense is "sinning", but I think that's going beyond the straightforward teaching of Scripture to Calvanistic ideas.

For example, from Ezekiel

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

18:21
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. (Ezek. 18:20-24)

This presents the idea that the wicked can choose not to sin and the rightoues can choose to sin.

Here's another one:

He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? (Micah 6:8)

This is an open invitation. Anyone can choose to do this.

I don't believe the idea that a person continually sins until he is converted agrees with inspiration. It sounds Augustinian to me.

Yes, we agree that the outcome of the great controversy will ultimately disprove Satan's accusation regarding the character and kingdom of God. But it looks like we disagree on the status of good works and atheists. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin, and faith comes by hearing and heeding the word of God. In rare cases, like aborigines in dark, out of the way places, God reserves the right to save some of them because they lived in harmony with their convictions and conscience.

But I'm pretty sure this doesn't apply to atheists, who willfully deny Christ and Him crucified, regardless of how philanthropic they may have been. Such good works I have come to perceive as beautiful sin, that is, it is truly wonderful how it helps others in need, but the fruit of this type of loving labor actually serves to undermine the gospel. How? Because it gives people the impression that Christianity isn't necessary in order to overcome our sinful, selfish propensities, that we can be Christlike without Christ, thus proving organized religion is unessential and superfluous - definitely not a good outcome.

On a side note, or maybe not, the two texts quoted below seem to indicate that Paul believed not all men have faith but only those who are among believers.

Romans
12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

2 Thessalonians
3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all [men] have not faith.

I'm not sure I can agree with you that the good works unconverted people accomplish, or the sinful habits they give up, as a result of the Spirit influencing them, is the result of saving faith or anything close to it. I am more inclined to think it is the result of will power and true grit.

SC 18
It is impossible for us, of ourselves, to escape from the pit of sin in which we are sunken. Our hearts are evil, and we cannot change them. "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one." "The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Job 14:4; Romans 8:7. Education, culture, the exercise of the will, human effort, all have their proper sphere, but here they are powerless. They may produce an outward correctness of behavior, but they cannot change the heart; they cannot purify the springs of life. There must be a power working from within, a new life from above, before men can be changed from sin to holiness. That power is Christ. His grace alone can quicken the lifeless faculties of the soul, and attract it to God, to holiness. {SC 18.1}

SC 23
Multitudes sorrow that they have sinned and even make an outward reformation because they fear that their wrongdoing will bring suffering upon themselves. But this is not repentance in the Bible sense. They lament the suffering rather than the sin. {SC 23.3}

SC 27
It is true that men sometimes become ashamed of their sinful ways, and give up some of their evil habits, before they are conscious that they are being drawn to Christ. But whenever they make an effort to reform, from a sincere desire to do right, it is the power of Christ that is drawing them. An influence of which they are unconscious works upon the soul, and the conscience is quickened, and the outward life is amended. And as Christ draws them to look upon His cross, to behold Him whom their sins have pierced, the commandment comes home to the conscience. The wickedness of their life, the deep-seated sin of the soul, is revealed to them. They begin to comprehend something of the righteousness of Christ, and exclaim, "What is sin, that it should require such a sacrifice for the redemption of its victim? Was all this love, all this suffering, all this humiliation, demanded, that we might not perish, but have everlasting life?" {SC 27.1}

The sinner may resist this love, may refuse to be drawn to Christ; but if he does not resist he will be drawn to Jesus; a knowledge of the plan of salvation will lead him to the foot of the cross in repentance for his sins, which have caused the sufferings of God's dear Son. {SC 27.2}

SC 58
It is true that there may be an outward correctness of deportment without the renewing power of Christ. The love of influence and the desire for the esteem of others may produce a well-ordered life. Self-respect may lead us to avoid the appearance of evil. A selfish heart may perform generous actions. By what means, then, shall we determine whose side we are on? {SC 58.1}

By the way, that thing about aborigines has to do with the idea that heaven will be populated by natives who, even before they heard the name of Jesus, responded to the wooing influence of God and lived a life in harmony with their conscience and convictions. Have you ever read those kinds of statements before in the SOP?

COL 385
Wherever there is an impulse of love and sympathy, wherever the heart reaches out to bless and uplift others, there is revealed the working of God's Holy Spirit. In the depths of heathenism, men who have had no knowledge of the written law of God, who have never even heard the name of Christ, have been kind to His servants, protecting them at the risk of their own lives. Their acts show the working of a divine power. The Holy Spirit has implanted the grace of Christ in the heart of the savage, quickening his sympathies contrary to his nature, contrary to his education. The "Light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world" (John 1:9), is shining in his soul; and this light, if heeded, will guide his feet to the kingdom of God. {COL 385.1}

SD 364, 365
In the day of final reckoning, Christ does not present before men the great work He has done for them in giving His life for their redemption. He presents before them the faithful work they have done for Him. What surpassing love is this! He even mentions the work of the heathen, who have no intelligent knowledge of the law of the Lord, but who have done the very things the law required, because they have heeded the voice speaking to them in the things of nature. When the Holy Spirit implants Christ's Spirit in the heart of the savage, and he befriends God's servants, the quickening of the heart's sympathy is contrary to his nature, contrary to his education. The grace of God, working upon the darkened mind, has softened the savage nature untaught by the wisdom of men. . . . {SD 364.3}

Christ implants His grace in the heart of the savage, and he ministers to the necessity of the missionary, even before he has heard or comprehended the words of truth and life. Behold that crowd collected about God's servant to harm him! But the Lord is working upon the heart and mind of perhaps one man to plead in behalf of His servant; and when the war council has determined the destruction of the Christian's life, the intercession of that savage turns the decision, and his life is spared. O, the love that goes forth to the savage for this one act! To such Christ says, in the Judgment: "I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me." "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." {SD 364.4}