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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10994
11/10/04 10:02 PM
11/10/04 10:02 PM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Hi Mike, I wll respond this evening, as I will read what you have posted, and give you an opinion, and study this in depth. God Bless, Will
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10995
11/11/04 01:28 AM
11/11/04 01:28 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote: If I remember right, you classify doctrinal error as an unknown defective trait of character. Assuming this is true, what are we, as the remnant, lacking? What truth or insight is God withholding that will make it possible for only the 144,000 to attain unto the completion of Christian character?
I wouldn't say that God withholds truth. What makes you say that? That makes it sound like there's fault with God. The Spirit of Prophesy tells us that God will give us truth as quickly as we are ready and willing to receive it.
Regarding doctrinal error, what I said was that if we hold doctrinal errors, that can lead us to misrepresent God. For example, if we believe that God tortures people for all eternity, then we misrepresent His character. The Spirit of Prophesy characterizes this teaching as "dreadful blasphemy." It seems possible, to me, to characterize "dreadful blasphemy" as sin.
The last message of mercy to be given to the world is a message of God's character. To tell the truth about God will be the work of the 144,000, I believe. We sin, perhaps unintentionally, but sin nonetheless, when we do not represent God aright.
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10996
11/11/04 04:45 AM
11/11/04 04:45 AM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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quote: The root of sin is unbelief. Much of our unbelief (most of it) is unconscious. Victory over sin includes victory over unbelief. The Spirit of Prophesy tells us that the most important science is the science of cultivating faith. I think complete victory over sin, as the 144,000 will experience, is dependent on a revelation of truth, which comes by the Gospel.
I assumed unconscious unbelief and sins of ignorance and doctrinal error and unknown defective traits of character were are related and pretty the same thing, that is, from what I've gathered from the various ideas you have posted here and there. But now I see, or I think I do, that you do not believe doctrinal error accounts for certain known or unknown defective traits of character.
Whew! That was a mouth full, eh? Okay, then what is the gospel truth, which hasn't been revealed or discovered yet, that, when implemented, will enable the 144,000 to attain unto perfection of Christian character, but the absence of which is preventing us from having that same experience right now?
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10997
11/11/04 08:31 AM
11/11/04 08:31 AM
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Active Member 2011
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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quote: Okay, then what is the gospel truth, which hasn't been revealed or discovered yet, that, when implemented, will enable the 144,000 to attain unto perfection of Christian character, but the absence of which is preventing us from having that same experience right now?
Ehm, this is an very interesting question. Who could tell you the truth which God has not yet revealed? Could anyone but a prophet share with us what has not yet been discovered? If the "thing" which you are refering to was something that the apostles had, then all that we need to know about the subject is written in the bible. In such case prayerfull biblestudy is what is needed.
/Thomas
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10998
11/12/04 03:38 AM
11/12/04 03:38 AM
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OP
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I think that's the point, Thomas. The truth necessary that enables God to empower us to attain to perfection of Christian character is available now, and has been since the First Fall. Attaining to character perfection does not mean we have no more room to grow. On the contrary, real Christian growth doesn't begin until we're born again, until we're dead to sin, free from sin. "How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" Rom 6:2. How? By taking our eyes off Jesus. That's how.
FLB 117 When in conversion the sinner finds peace with God through the blood of the atonement, the Christian life has but just begun. {FLB 117.2}
We are converted and born again with all the righteous character attributes of God and with all of the fruits of the Spirit. Not one thing is lacking or missing when God implants within us the sinless seed or mind of the new man.
COL 330 All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. {COL 330.2}
DA 676 When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing. {DA 676.4}
The righteous character traits of God and the fruits of the Spirit are not qualities we gradually accumulate by swapping sin and righteousness over the course of a lifetime. Rather, we are born again with them, with all of them, and then begins the lifelong process, which includes eternal life in heaven and the new earth, of growing in grace and knowledge and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit. It's what Paul calls, "perfecting holiness in the fear of God." 2 Cor 7:1.
But again, just because we are born again dead to sin and awake to righteousness, it does not mean we are incapable of disconnecting from Jesus, resurrecting the mind of the old man, and reverting back to our former sinfulness. We are always free to sin. The difference is, now that we have experienced the miracle of rebirth, is that we must first take our eyes off Jesus, stop abiding in Him, before we can commit a known sin. If we do sin, God does not reject us. No way, never, never. He offers us the gift of repentance, which restores the relationship our sin severed.
The problem today isn't knowing what is truth, rather the problem today is consistently experiencing the truth, the truth as it is in Jesus - righteousness by faith. Most of us are trying to reconcile, in light of the truth, a life of sinning and repenting for the same stupid things over and over again. But we make a mistake, I believe, when we reinterpret the truth and force it to accommodate our frequent failures.
Intead of expending all of our energy trying to make the truth fit our pitiful condition, we should be pleading with God for the power to be more than conquerors in Christ Jesus, who loves us with an everlasting love, full of power and compassion. "Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us." Eph 3:20.
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10999
11/12/04 01:05 AM
11/12/04 01:05 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote: The truth necessary that enables God to empower us to attain to perfection of Christian character is available now, and has been since the First Fall.
If this were true, then we wouldn't need the Bible at all, right?
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#11000
11/12/04 01:57 AM
11/12/04 01:57 AM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, if the truth needful for God to empower the antediluvians to attain to perfection of character wasn't available to them, then how was it possible for them to overcome sin? The only reason Moses began to write the Bible, 2500 years after the First Sin, was to preserve oral truth and tradition. But for 2500 years believers were able to perfect holiness without a written record. The NT is a record of the life and times and teachings of Jesus and His disciples, but otherwise it is an inspired commentary on OT theology and how it applies to the apostolic church. If so, then how do you explain the many SOP quotes I posted toward the bottom of page 5 that clearly say character perfection is available now, and that it is the basis of our reward in judgment?
But what about today, right now? Do we posssess the knowledge and truth required to attain to the completeness of Christian character? Or, will God reveal certain aspects of truth later on, during the time of the 144,000, that will enable the final, translation generation of saints to accomplish what we cannot, namely, attain to perfection of character?
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#11001
11/12/04 04:54 AM
11/12/04 04:54 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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The 144,000 will attain to a higher state than others have attained to in other epochs. They will stand before a holy God without a mediator. I do not believe that this was possible for Christ began His work in the Most Holy Place in 1844. In fact, I believe that's why Christ began that work. That's what He's doing now; He's preparing a people to be ready for His coming. If what you were saying were true, Christ could have come before 1844. That's not in harmony with inspiration.
What is necessary for the 144,000 is for them to perfectly reproduce Christ's character. That's COL 69. Whatever truth is necessary for them to do that is the truth that remains for God to give to that end. Given that EGW described the message of Jones and Waggoner as the "beginning of the latter rain" and identified it with the shaking message, the counsel of the true witness, that other angel (Rev. 18) and so on, my guess would be that the truth remaining for the 144,000 to learn would be the truth of the Gospel; truth, in particular, that relates to God's character, since that's the last message to be given to the world. Other than that, it's pointless to ask me what that truth would be. How would I know? The only way I could know that truth would be if God already gave it out, and in that case it wouldn't be yet future, would it? So you're asking me a question which is impossible to answer.
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#11002
11/13/04 03:47 AM
11/13/04 03:47 AM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, as I see it, the only thing different about the 144,000 and other believers, is they will be alive when their record and memory of specific sins are blotted out in judgment. Attaining to the completeness of Christian character is an experience that has always been available. Otherwise, we implicate God if we insist new light is what accounts for the difference between those who make up the 144,000 and those who do not. I believe all the light required to attain to perfection of character has always been available.
The SOP quotes posted earlier on this thread make it clear that attaining to perfection of character is not only possible in each of our lifetimes, dating back to Adam and Eve, but it is essential to our salvation. Among those who are resurrected when Jesus arrives in the clouds of glory, Sister White says, “In all the redeemed host not one [character] defect will be seen.” (FLB 44) And not because they were eliminated in the grave. “The characters formed in this life will determine the future destiny. When Christ shall come, He will not change the character of any individual.” (4T 429)
Whether or not we are worthy or qualified to enter the kingdom of God is not dependent upon Jesus completing His work in the MHP. Judgment merely confirms it. Already in heaven there are 24 elders, three of whom we know their names, the other 21 saints may have been resurrected with Jesus. Winning and ending the great controversy is a whole other matter, a matter altogether related to the corporate issue you’ve mentioned. But the issue of attaining to character perfection is something all of us must strive for individually – “without which no man shall see the Lord.” (Hebrews 12:14)
Also, not all of the 144,000 are spiritual giants, who have attained a higher and holier state than the rest of us, who are more mature than us. Some of them barely survive by the skin on their teeth. “Those who exercise but little faith now, are in the greatest danger of falling under the power of satanic delusions and the decree to compel the conscience. And even if they endure the test they will be plunged into deeper distress and anguish in the time of trouble, because they have never made it a habit to trust in God. The lessons of faith which they have neglected they will be forced to learn under a terrible pressure of discouragement.” (GC 622)
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#11003
11/12/04 06:25 PM
11/12/04 06:25 PM
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In what way do they "barely survive by the skin on their teeth"?
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