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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10984
11/06/04 04:53 AM
11/06/04 04:53 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
I'm not sure I can agree with you that the good works unconverted people accomplish, or the sinful habits they give up, as a result of the Spirit influencing them, is the result of saving faith or anything close to it. I am more inclined to think it is the result of will power and true grit.
You believe sin can be overcome by "will power and true grut"? Then what do we need Christ for?
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10985
11/06/04 04:57 AM
11/06/04 04:57 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
By the way, that thing about aborigines has to do with the idea that heaven will be populated by natives who, even before they heard the name of Jesus, responded to the wooing influence of God and lived a life in harmony with their conscience and convictions. Have you ever read those kinds of statements before in the SOP?
I'm familiar with this one:
quote:
Those whom Christ commends in the judgment may have known little of theology, but they have cherished His principles. Through the influence of the divine Spirit they have been a blessing to those about them. Even among the heathen are those who have cherished the spirit of kindness; before the words of life had fallen upon their ears, they have befriended the missionaries, even ministering to them at the peril of their own lives. Among the heathen are those who worship God ignorantly, those to whom the light is never brought by human instrumentality, yet they will not perish. Though ignorant of the written law of God, they have heard His voice speaking to them in nature, and have done the things that the law required. Their works are evidence that the Holy Spirit has touched their hearts, and they are recognized as the children of God. (DA 638)
This makes the point I was trying to make. The Holy Spirit works on the hearts of all men. If they do not resist His influence, God will save them.
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10986
11/06/04 05:03 AM
11/06/04 05:03 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Regarding faith being given to every man, this is from an article of E. J. Waggoner on Romans 12: quote:
Every man is exhorted to think soberly, because God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. Many people have a notion that they are so constituted that it is impossible for them to believe. That is a grave error. Faith is just as easy, and just as natural, as breathing. It is the common inheritance of all men, and the one thing wherein all are equal. It is as natural for the child of the infidel to believe as it is for the child of the saint. It is only when men build up a barrier of pride about themselves (Ps. 73:6) that they find it difficult to believe. And even then they will believe; for when men disbelieve God, they believe Satan; when they disbelieve the truth, they greedily swallow the most egregious falsehoods.
In What Measure? We have seen that faith is given to every man. This may be known also by the fact that salvation is offered to every man, and placed within his grasp, and salvation is only by faith. If God had not given faith to every man, he could not have brought salvation within the reach of all.
The question is, In what measure has God given every man faith? This is really answered in the fact already learned, that the faith which he gives is the faith of Jesus. The faith of Jesus is given in the gift of Jesus himself, and Christ is given in his fullness to every man. He tasted death for every man. Heb. 2:9. "Unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ." Eph. 4:7. Christ is not divided; therefore to every man is given all of Christ and all of his faith. There is but one measure.
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10987
11/06/04 04:44 PM
11/06/04 04:44 PM
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OP
SDA
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Tom, good stuff. Thanx for sharing it. I like the way Waggoner put it. Everyone is born with just enough "faith" to accept the faith of Jesus, the saving faith necessary to escape the corruption that is in the world through lust. (2 Peter 1:4.)
Now, more about will power and true grit. Those quotes I shared from Steps to Christ make it clear to me that changing our behaviour is not the same thing as changing our heart. Sin goes much deeper than behaviour, as you and I both well know. Ungodly behaviour is merely a symptom of sin. Motive is the foundation of sin, and motive is something we cannot change, at least not without the divine touch of God.
We must be born again. Why? Well, our first birth left us deficient, without the ability to imitate the example of Jesus. We have the hardware, just not the software to run it. When we’re born again, God installs the software that makes it possible for us to go online, to partake of the divine nature, to stay connected to Christ, so that He can download the gift of His righteousness. Once online, we do not and cannot commit a known sin. Why? Because we are connected to Christ, because our motives are pure and holy, because His love and holiness flow through us. We live His life.
Yes, an unconverted person can work real hard, and exercise superhuman strength and will power, if sufficiently motivated, to alter his outward behaviour, to clean things up nice and pretty on the outside. But even his best efforts, his grandest accomplishments, come short of the glory of God. Why? His motives are not pure or perfect. Everything we do, without Jesus, is tainted, in one way or another, with selfishness. We can’t help it.
Our hearts are sinful and full of deceit. All of our righteousnesses, without Jesus, are nothing but filthy rags. Please notice that Isaiah is talking about our best behaviour, not when we’re at our worst, when he says all of our righteousnesses are nothing but filthy rags. Without Jesus, we’re nothing but sinners, full of lies, malice, deceit, hypocrisy, and “the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.” Rev 18:2.
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10988
11/09/04 12:55 AM
11/09/04 12:55 AM
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OP
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Tom, did we arrive at some sort of consensus?
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10989
11/09/04 06:01 PM
11/09/04 06:01 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I've noticed you're using the language, "As long as I don't resist God's grace" so I take that as a positive sign. I think we agree on the following points:
1) Overcoming sin is imporant and possible. The most important reason is because sin misrepresents God in the Great Controversy.
2) We overcome sin by beholding Christ, which transforms us into His image.
3) If we do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace, God will make us like Christ.
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10990
11/11/04 03:38 AM
11/11/04 03:38 AM
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Sounds great. But are we really on the same page? I think it would be helpful if we were to explore two points in particular. What do we mean when we use the words "overcome sin" and "become like Jesus"? I suspect we are using these expressions to mean nearly opposite ideas. I will define what I mean, and then what I think you mean. Please correct me if I get your view wrong. Thank you. I believe overcoming sin means resisting the temptation to sin. Jesus said we will sit with Him on His throne if we overcome even as He also overcame. See Rev 3:21. Obviously, therefore, overcoming cannot imply sinning and repenting until we eventually cease sinning. It must necessarily mean resisting the temptation to sin. I suspect, from what you've posted before, you believe overcoming sin means gradually outgrowing our defective traits of character by a process of sinning less and less often, less and less intensely, until we no longer give in, until it is no longer even a temptation. Again, please correct me if I have misunderstood you. Now, on to the other expression. Becoming like Jesus, to me, means maturing in the fruits of the Spirit from grace to grace, from faith to faith, and from glory to glory. See John 1:16 and Rom 1:17 and 2 Cor 3:18. It has nothing to do with sinning and repenting, or becoming less and less like Satan. Sanctification is an advance from one stage of perfection to another stage of perfection, and not from one stage of imperfection to a lesser stage of imperfection. First, under the influence of God, we must confess and crucify our old man habits of sin, and then we experience the miracle of rebirth. Next, in Christ, we begin the lifelong process of obedience, of perfecting holiness in the fear of God. This is what it means to become more like Jesus, who Himself began perfect and then became perfect. I believe, on the other hand, that your definition and usage of the expression “become like Jesus” implies gradually outgrowing our defective traits of character until we cease sinning altogether, that we slowly, steadily become less and less sinful, less and less like Satan. Again, please correct me if I have misunderstood you. Thank you. I hasten to add that if we should take our eyes off Jesus and slip into sin it does not mean we were never truly born again. That's not the case at all. Jesus offers us the gift of repentance, which, when received into our heart, empowers us to confess and forsake our sin, and then Jesus restores the relationship our sin severed. Then we resume walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, which means we are living in harmony with the will and law of God, that is, we are not resisting His will or frustrating His grace. quote:
Revelation
3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
John
1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
Romans
1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
2 Corinthians
3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.
ML 250
"The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul." Through obedience comes sanctification of body, soul, and spirit. This sanctification is a progressive work, and an advance from one stage of perfection to another. {ML 250.4}
2 Corinthians
7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
AA 560, 561
Sanctification is not the work of a moment, an hour, a day, but of a lifetime. It is not gained by a happy flight of feeling, but is the result of constantly dying to sin, and constantly living for Christ. Wrongs cannot be righted nor reformations wrought in the character by feeble, intermittent efforts. It is only by long, persevering effort, sore discipline, and stern conflict, that we shall overcome. We know not one day how strong will be our conflict the next. So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience. {AA 560.3}
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10991
11/10/04 07:00 PM
11/10/04 07:00 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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If one considers sin to encompass both known and unknown sin, and defects of character to include unknown defects, then I agree with your characterization of my position that we sin less and less and our defects of character are minimized, although that's certainly not how I would state my position. I think that would technically be true, however.
If you define sin as only encompassing known sin, and defects of character as only encompassing known defects of character, I think I would not agree with your characterization of my position.
By being like Jesus, I mean being like Him in character. As Jesus said, "If you've seen Me, you've seen the Father" we could say (if we're really like Him -- not that we would say this, however) "If you've seen me, you've seen Jesus."
The root of sin is unbelief. Much of our unbelief (most of it) is unconscious. Victory over sin includes victory over unbelief. The Spirit of Prophesy tells us that the most important science is the science of cultivating faith. I think complete victory over sin, as the 144,000 will experience, is dependent on a revelation of truth, which comes by the Gospel. This Gospel began in the 1888 message, as it was "the beginning of the latter rain." Without that message, and whatever light follows it, or builds upon it, the 144,000 cannot be successful. Thus victory over sin is not a purely individual matter, but is a corporate matter as well.
I hope this helps explain my position. I will be glad to explain more if desired.
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10992
11/10/04 09:09 PM
11/10/04 09:09 PM
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OP
SDA
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If I remember right, you classify doctrinal error as an unknown defective trait of character. Assuming this is true, what are we, as the remnant, lacking? What truth or insight is God withholding that will make it possible for only the 144,000 to attain unto the completion of Christian character?
The following quotes seem to suggest that the completeness of Christian character has been, and still is, available to every repenting child of God, and that it is the only qualification for admittance to heaven, whether we are resurrected or translated.
AA 551
The completeness of Christian character is attained when the impulse to help and bless others springs constantly from within. {AA 551.1}
AA 531
None need fail of attaining, in his sphere, to perfection of Christian character. By the sacrifice of Christ, provision has been made for the believer to receive all things that pertain to life and godliness. God calls upon us to reach the standard of perfection and places before us the example of Christ's character. In His humanity, perfected by a life of constant resistance of evil, the Saviour showed that through co-operation with Divinity, human beings may in this life attain to perfection of character. This is God's assurance to us that we, too, may obtain complete victory. {AA 531.2}
FLB 44
God's ideal for His children is higher than the highest human thought can reach. . . . The plan of redemption contemplates our complete recovery from the power of Satan. Christ always separates the contrite soul from sin. He came to destroy the works of the devil, and He has made provision that the Holy Spirit shall be imparted to every repentant soul, to keep him from sinning. {FLB 44.3}
The tempter's agency is not to be accounted an excuse for one wrong act. Satan is jubilant when he hears the professed followers of Christ making excuses for their deformity of character. It is these excuses that lead to sin. There is no excuse for sinning. A holy temper, a Christlike life, is accessible to every repenting, believing child of God. {FLB 44.4}
The ideal of Christian character is Christlikeness. As the Son of man was perfect in His life, so His followers are to be perfect in their life. . . . He bids us by faith in Him attain to the glory of the character of God. {FLB 44.5}
A well-balanced character is formed by single acts well performed. One defect, cultivated instead of being overcome, makes the man imperfect, and closes against him the gate of the Holy City. . . . In all the redeemed host not one defect will be seen. . . . {FLB 44.6}
1MCP 339
Some of these persons will never attain to perfection of Christian character because they do not see the value and necessity of such a character. Their minds cannot be elevated so that they will be charmed with holiness. Self-love and selfish interests have so warped the character that they cannot be made to distinguish the sacred and eternal from the common.--2T 519, 520 (1870). {1MCP 339.3}
3SM 148
We can never see our Lord in peace, unless our souls are spotless. We must bear the perfect image of Christ. Every thought must be brought into subjection to the will of Christ. As expressed by the great apostle, we must come "unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ." We shall never attain to this condition without earnest effort. We must strive daily against outward evil and inward sin, if we would reach the perfection of Christian character.--The Review and Herald, May 30, 1882. {3SM 148.3}
2T 588
We are seeking for purity and holiness of life, that we may at last be fitted for the heavenly society in the kingdom of glory; and the only means to attain this elevation of Christian character is through Jesus Christ. There is no other way for the exaltation of the human family. {2T 588.1}
4T 54, 55
You need a deep and thorough work accomplished for you. Your entire family needs it, and may God help you all to attain perfection of Christian character. {4T 54.3}
4T 400
The word of God sets a high mark before you. Will you, through fasting and prayerful effort, attain to the completeness and consistency of Christian character? {4T 400.2}
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10993
11/10/04 09:19 PM
11/10/04 09:19 PM
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OP
SDA
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John, Will, Avalee, Restin, Debbie, Daryl, Charlene, Daniel, and anyone else who is silently following this thread - What do you guys think? How do you interpret the quotes that have been shared in the last few posts?
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