As stated repeatedly - I am not the one "ascribing" in GC 672-673 -- I am the one reading and the one posting.

It is as if you get a letter from the mail man and then say to him "why would you write such a letter to me".

It simply makes no sense. I quote the pages of that chapter in DA and now also in EW and you ask "why would you see it, write it, think of it... that way"



How so?

(Here is where you need to actually "show" that I have said or written something not IN the chapter).



I get that from the Mormons, JW's and Catholics all the time. The key is to actually go to "the text" and make a point.

in Christ,

Bob

Indeed - finding those "details" in the text itself is part of my experience ( as it turns out).

Surely you are not asking for me to quote the text "again"??

(I am wondering at this point -- if anyone besides me notices that in my responses I am not lured into "straying very far" from the text itself?)

in Christ,

Bob

Ok I guess this is where I quote GC 673 and EW 294 "again" and point out that what is written there is not at all "my idea".


===============================================================================

Great Controversy - 673

Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething 673

lake of fire. It is the time of the judgement and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished “according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit.

His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

EW 294

The Second Death

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together.

I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}


Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but
295
also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294.2}

Said the angel, "Satan is the root, his children are the branches. They are now consumed root and branch. They have died an everlasting death. They are never to have a resurrection, and God will have a clean universe." I then looked and saw the fire which had consumed the wicked, burning up the rubbish and purifying the earth. Again I looked and saw the earth purified. There was not a single sign of the curse. The broken, uneven surface of the earth now looked like a level, extensive plain.

=======================================================

Surely you youself can admit to "needing to eisegete" the text in order to get "these details" not to be actually true -- so that you can get your ideas so "survive it".


You ask if "1. God will engulf the wicked in flames,"

I answer:

Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething

I can do this with each of your 3 points above - but it seems a bit obvious.

What am I missing?

in Christ,

Bob

No matter how many times you quote this, it still doesn't say that God will engulf the wicked in flames, supernaturally keeping them alive so they can suffer longer, in order to make them pay for their sins. Simply re-quoting it won't change what it says.

Let's consider this one:



You seem to be interpreting this literally. But does that make sense? What does the "least particle for it to prey upon" refer to? This can't simply be human flesh, because without brain activity, the person couldn't feel pain, and hence couldn't suffer, which is, in your view, the purpose of the fire. So the fire would have to be consuming the feet and then the legs and moving its way upward. Of course, it's hard to see how the person could still be alive once his heart was burned up, as nothing is pumping oxygen anymore. Plus the person needs to breath, so the lungs are necessary. So at least a stump is necessary in order for the person to live, unless you think the person is living without needing a heart to pump blood or lungs to breath with.

So what does "the least particle" refer to?

All your posts strike me as angry. You could try to get other people's opinions on this. I'm glad from your response that you seem not to actually be angry. I apologize if I'm the one in error here in misreading your tone.

I think "err... umm.." is totally out of place in discussions like this. If you think something is obvious, just say something like, "It's obvious to me that ...."

Well... let's SEE if the readers find that what is explicitly stated IN the text can so easily be spun around to "inference" instead of actual "text".


1. Does the reader find THIS quote?
"Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished “according to their deeds."

2.Does the reader find a link between punishment, time and suffering alive in the flames - in THIS quote?

"His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on."

3. How many times does the reader find the words "punished" or "punishment" here?
"Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished “according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit.

His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on."

4. Does the reader find any link at all between the terms used "punishment" and the "full demands of the law being met" in THIS quote?

"The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; "

5. Does the reader find "any hint at all" of suffering in this quote that is being done IN the flames - in the fire itself?

"I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}"

And finally - perhaps easiest of all - does the reader find that the quotes above are found IN the text below -- or are they simply made up inferences by me?


===============================================================================

Great Controversy - 673

Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething 673

lake of fire. It is the time of the judgement and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished “according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit.

His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

EW 294

The Second Death

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together.

I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}


Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but
295
also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294.2}

Said the angel, "Satan is the root, his children are the branches. They are now consumed root and branch. They have died an everlasting death. They are never to have a resurrection, and God will have a clean universe." I then looked and saw the fire which had consumed the wicked, burning up the rubbish and purifying the earth. Again I looked and saw the earth purified. There was not a single sign of the curse. The broken, uneven surface of the earth now looked like a level, extensive plain.

=======================================================

Surely you youself can admit to "needing to eisegete" the text in order to get "these details" not to be actually true -- so that you can get your ideas so "survive it".


in Christ,

Bob [/quote]

I will do my best.

I simply accept it as written.

"Many days" means -- "many days"

"consuming" means -- "consuming"

"suffer" means -- "suffer".

"fire" means -- "fire"

Since I have no OTHER things I map this too - I am content to merely accept it as it is written.



It makes sense if one is to argue "I do not spin the text at all - I just accept what it says -- what is written".

in Christ,

Bob

The word suffer is in the text - it is not being "inserted" by me.



The zillion question model is 'noted'.



If you are trying to hint that there is something "supernatural" going on in what God is doing here so as to make THIS death -- the SECOND death - so very different from the FIRST death. Then point made! I agree completely -- manufactured. (A term Ellen White uses in DA 305 ).

If you just "practicing" the zillion questions model -- then you are stopping short of getting some real benefit from that exercise.



It refers to the smallest part of the person being left and clearly shows the supernatural element so central to this event.

in Christ,

Bob

As I've pointed out, others read the passage differently than you do. Indeed, *everybody* on this forum reads it differently than you do. You are inferring things, and ascribing things, just like everybody else.

There's nothing wrong with this, of course. But it's good to be aware of the reality of what one is doing.



Bob, everybody else sees something different in this text than you do. So there's no question it's possible to interpret it differently than you do, since that's being done.



For the reasons pointed out, in detail.



This has also been done. Specifically, your idea that God will burn the wicked alive with literal fire, supernaturally keeping them alive so they can suffer more. This isn't in the text.



But these are people on this forum, SDA's.

I'd still like to know why you think God is capable of burning people alive to make them suffer. Could you do this to your loved ones? Or even your enemies? Do you think God is made of "sterner stuff" than you?



I think, on the contrary, you have been consistently straying away from answer this question. We've had many posts discussing the text. There's no reason why we can't have other posts discussing other things as well, such as God's character.

You wouldn't deny that one's perception of God's character is important, would you? That it impacts how we perceive things? Including Scripture and the SOP?

You have a concept of God's character that very few Adventists have. I'm interested in where you formulated it from.



But 1, 2, and 3 are nowhere to be found in these texts. Also, this isn't all she wrote on the subject.

You have a unique view on these texts, and refuse to consider other things she wrote about the subject, even though this is her expressed wish. You have no sense of principles in your explanations of what happens, only "details."

How are the principles of "love, mercy, and kindness," employed, which the SOP says God employs in the judgment?

How is it that she writes that the death of the wicked is not due to an arbitrary (or "manufactured," to use your word) act of power on the part of God?

How is that the she writes that had God "left" Satan to reap the full result of his sin, he would have perished, but He didn't do that because it would have appeared to onlookers to have been something other than "the inevitable result of sin"?

She wrote all these things. They are "in the text." Why doesn't your view account for these things?

How is it that the same thing which gives life to the righteous slays the wicked?