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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Tom]
#109990
03/16/09 03:38 PM
03/16/09 03:38 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Regarding #109985, it's your idea that as a person burns away, he continues to live, even without a heart or lungs? So before they die, they'll be disembodied heads? And then the head gets eaten away? Until just a portion of the brain is left, the part that feels pain. Is this your idea? How can you not see this is absurd? It reminds me of this: I also stated that "Satan appeared to be by the throne, trying to carry on the work of God." I will give another sentence from the same page: "I turned to look at the company who were still bowed before the throne." Now this praying company was in this mortal state, on the earth, yet represented to me as bowed before the throne. I never had the idea that these individuals were actually in the New Jerusalem. Neither did I ever think that any mortal could suppose that I believed that Satan was actually in the New Jerusalem. But did not John see the great red dragon in heaven? Certainly. "And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns." Revelation 12:3. What a monster to be in heaven! Here seems to be as good a chance for ridicule as in the interpretation which some have placed upon my statements. (EW 92) The EW quote is the description of a vision. Why would you think it's literal? It's a vision.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Tom]
#109995
03/16/09 04:21 PM
03/16/09 04:21 PM
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OP
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Regarding #109985, it's your idea that as a person burns away, he continues to live, even without a heart or lungs? So before they die, they'll be disembodied heads? And then the head gets eaten away? Until just a portion of the brain is left, the part that feels pain. Is this your idea?
the picture i got was a tad different. i saw hands, feet, fingers, elbows, writhing in pain and torment.....  kind of like horror movies ive seen.
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Tom]
#109996
03/16/09 04:25 PM
03/16/09 04:25 PM
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I don't understand that response. I see nothing in my post to indicate anger of any kind -- possibly a little humor - but no anger. All your posts strike me as angry. You could try to get other people's opinions on this. I'm glad from your response that you seem not to actually be angry. I apologize if I'm the one in error here in misreading your tone. yes, angry is one picture i get.
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Bobryan]
#109997
03/16/09 04:39 PM
03/16/09 04:39 PM
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If you are trying to hint that there is something "supernatural" going on in what God is doing here so as to make THIS death -- the SECOND death - so very different from the FIRST death. Then point made! I agree completely -- manufactured. (A term Ellen White uses in DA 305 ). i couldnt find "manufactured" on that page. were you thinking of something else? that page was dealing with: It was very pleasing to be called "Rabbi," and to be extolled as wise and religious, having their virtues paraded before the public. This was regarded as the crown of happiness. But in the presence of that vast throng, Jesus declared that earthly gain and honor were all the reward such persons would ever receive. He spoke with certainty, and a convincing power attended His words. The people were silenced, and a feeling of fear crept over them. They looked at one another doubtfully. Who of them would be saved if this Man's teachings were true? Many were convicted that this remarkable Teacher was actuated by the Spirit of God, and that the sentiments He uttered were divine. {DA 305.1}
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: teresaq]
#110005
03/16/09 05:35 PM
03/16/09 05:35 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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T:Regarding #109985, it's your idea that as a person burns away, he continues to live, even without a heart or lungs? So before they die, they'll be disembodied heads? And then the head gets eaten away? Until just a portion of the brain is left, the part that feels pain. Is this your idea?
t:the picture i got was a tad different. i saw hands, feet, fingers, elbows, writhing in pain and torment..... smile kind of like horror movies ive seen. I was responding to the EW description which speaks of the worm of life continuing until the last particle is dispatched with. Kind of like the witch in the Wizard of Oz when Dorothy dumps the water on her, except the process takes longer, and the victim continues to live even though all its parts are gone.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Tom]
#110042
03/17/09 01:03 AM
03/17/09 01:03 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2015
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 793
Georgia, USA
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T:Why do you think God is capable of doing the things you ascribe to Him?
B:As stated repeatedly - I am not the one "ascribing" in GC 672-673 -- I am the one reading and the one posting. As I've pointed out, others read the passage differently than you do. Indeed, *everybody* on this forum reads it differently than you do. You are inferring things, and ascribing things, just like everybody else. There's nothing wrong with this, of course. But it's good to be aware of the reality of what one is doing. It is as if you get a letter from the mail man and then say to him "why would you write such a letter to me".
It simply makes no sense. I quote the pages of that chapter in DA and now also in EW and you ask "why would you see it, write it, think of it... that way" Bob, everybody else sees something different in this text than you do. 1. I have yet to see any of the "everybody" except for you and TeresaQ -- what am I missing? 2. I already answered the above in the form "I get that from the Mormons, JW's and Catholics all the time. The key is to actually go to "the text" and make a point." 3. It is a form of logical fallacy to argue that your argument must be right since someone else happens to take your same way out -- by ignoring the details in the text. (That is the same fallacy many Christians that try to marry evolutionism to the Bible have used. "It must be Christian because I know Christians that do it". That would also work for praying to the dead, worshipping idols etc.). The REAL answer is to "show your work" IN the text. Show that I have done something other than simply affirm the details IN the text! It is instructive that you have yet do that in your posts so far. You have yet to show that my answers are anything BUT what is actually written in that text. in Christ, Bob
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: teresaq]
#110044
03/17/09 01:10 AM
03/17/09 01:10 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2015
Senior Member
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 793
Georgia, USA
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If you are trying to hint that there is something "supernatural" going on in what God is doing here so as to make THIS death -- the SECOND death - so very different from the FIRST death. Then point made! I agree completely -- manufactured. (A term Ellen White uses in DA 305 ). i couldnt find "manufactured" on that page. were you thinking of something else? that page was dealing with: It was very pleasing to be called "Rabbi," and to be extolled as wise and religious, having their virtues paraded before the public. This was regarded as the crown of happiness. But in the presence of that vast throng, Jesus declared that earthly gain and honor were all the reward such persons would ever receive. He spoke with certainty, and a convincing power attended His words. The people were silenced, and a feeling of fear crept over them. They looked at one another doubtfully. Who of them would be saved if this Man's teachings were true? Many were convicted that this remarkable Teacher was actuated by the Spirit of God, and that the sentiments He uttered were divine. {DA 305.1} Interesting point - thanks for bringing that up. I am not sure why the reference notes and the pages don't line up. Desire of Ages Page 304 - 305
PAGE 304 -- end..
Blessed are the peacemakers." The peace of Christ is born of truth. It is harmony with God. The world is at enmity with the law of God;
PAGE 305
sinners are at enmity with their Maker; and as a result they are at enmity with one another. But the psalmist declares, "Great peace have they which love Thy law: and nothing shall offend them." Ps. 119:165. Men cannot manufacture peace. Human plans for the purification and uplifting of individuals or of society will fail of producing peace, because they do not reach the heart. The only power that can create or perpetuate true peace is the grace of Christ. When this is implanted in the heart, it will cast out the evil passions that cause strife and dissension. "Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree;" and life's desert "shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose." Isa. 55:13; 35:1. {DA 302.4}
In any case in the hardcopy and in the softcopy, it is really on page 305 in a paragraph that starts on 304 and ends on 305.
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Tom]
#110045
03/17/09 01:17 AM
03/17/09 01:17 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2015
Senior Member
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 793
Georgia, USA
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T:There's something in your experience or perception of things which allows you to believe it's possible that God will burn people alive for hours or days at a time.
B:Indeed - finding those "details" in the text itself is part of my experience ( as it turns out).
Surely you are not asking for me to quote the text "again"??
(I am wondering at this point -- if anyone besides me notices that in my responses I am not lured into "straying very far" from the text itself?)
I think, on the contrary, you have been consistently straying away from answer this question. We've had many posts discussing the text. There's no reason why we can't have other posts discussing other things as well, such as God's character.
You wouldn't deny that one's perception of God's character is important, would you? That it impacts how we perceive things? Including Scripture and the SOP?
You have a concept of God's character that very few Adventists have. I'm interested in where you formulated it from.
It is pretty simply really. 1. Quote the text - you object to the text. 2. You then ask me how I came up with that -- and I simply "quote the text" again, so you can object to it again as if I wrote it ---- calling my verbatim quote of IT "your concept" as you just did "again". Observing That sequence is not the hard part in the discussion. What IS hard to understand is how you ever hope to be successful at claiming that my verbatim quote OF the text is me expressing some "idea" or "concept I have" instead of me "quoting the text verbatim". You have yet to show that I have done anything but quote the text verbatim -- aside form occassionaly objecting to the fact that I happen to believe exactly what the text says. 3. you are certainly correct to observe that we can change the subject to "Character of God" and then reach for zillions of examples on zillions of different topics to explore the infinite details in the character of God. But when you try to argue "God's Character includes A and that means we should never find Ellen White showing God to do B" where B is an exact quote of GC 673 or EW 294 -- for example -- then we will also go TO GC 673 or EW 294 to see IF you supposition holds true. Typically we have found that it does not when it comes to those details that you insist should not be found there. in Christ, Bob
Last edited by Bobryan; 03/17/09 01:22 AM.
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Tom]
#110046
03/17/09 01:24 AM
03/17/09 01:24 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2015
Senior Member
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 793
Georgia, USA
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The EW quote is the description of a vision. Why would you think it's literal? It's a vision.
There is no principle of writing that has ever stated that people can not be shown REAL future events in dreams or visions. It makes no sense to argue that if it is a vision or dream that it MUST be using symbols. There is no such rule known to mankind. (BTW - I have the habbit of using uppercase for emphasis not volume. I try to remember to take it out as much as possible to avoid confusion -- but sometimes a bit of it remains. It is easier to uppercase than to go back and bold with underline) in Christ, Bob
Last edited by Bobryan; 03/17/09 01:25 AM.
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Bobryan]
#110047
03/17/09 02:05 AM
03/17/09 02:05 AM
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OP
SDA
Active Member 2024
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
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If you are trying to hint that there is something "supernatural" going on in what God is doing here so as to make THIS death -- the SECOND death - so very different from the FIRST death. Then point made! I agree completely -- manufactured. (A term Ellen White uses in DA 305 ). i couldnt find "manufactured" on that page. were you thinking of something else? that page was dealing with: It was very pleasing to be called "Rabbi," and to be extolled as wise and religious, having their virtues paraded before the public. This was regarded as the crown of happiness. But in the presence of that vast throng, Jesus declared that earthly gain and honor were all the reward such persons would ever receive. He spoke with certainty, and a convincing power attended His words. The people were silenced, and a feeling of fear crept over them. They looked at one another doubtfully. Who of them would be saved if this Man's teachings were true? Many were convicted that this remarkable Teacher was actuated by the Spirit of God, and that the sentiments He uttered were divine. {DA 305.1} Interesting point - thanks for bringing that up. I am not sure why the reference notes and the pages don't line up. Desire of Ages Page 304 - 305
PAGE 304 -- end..
Blessed are the peacemakers." The peace of Christ is born of truth. It is harmony with God. The world is at enmity with the law of God;
PAGE 305
sinners are at enmity with their Maker; and as a result they are at enmity with one another. But the psalmist declares, "Great peace have they which love Thy law: and nothing shall offend them." Ps. 119:165. Men cannot manufacture peace. Human plans for the purification and uplifting of individuals or of society will fail of producing peace, because they do not reach the heart. The only power that can create or perpetuate true peace is the grace of Christ. When this is implanted in the heart, it will cast out the evil passions that cause strife and dissension. "Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree;" and life's desert "shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose." Isa. 55:13; 35:1. {DA 302.4}
In any case in the hardcopy and in the softcopy, it is really on page 305 in a paragraph that starts on 304 and ends on 305. i wouldnt have looked if i had known that it had nothing whatsoever to do with the topic at hand.
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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