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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Bobryan]
#110210
03/19/09 02:47 PM
03/19/09 02:47 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Hint - there is no apocalyptic speech being used in EW294 or GC673 -- no "Dragons with ten horns" no "women riding a ten-horned beast" no "souls under the altar" but as you point out it WOULD have been soooo much nicer for your speculative conclusions IF instead of seeing the blatantly literal language of EW294 and GC673 we saw something like this. You questioned the comments about your tone earlier. Here's a couple of specific examples. You write "Hint." This wreaks of sarcasm or anger, not humor. Also "soooo" gives the same feeling. The text I quoted in Revelation wasn't dealing with apocalyptic speech involving dragons or beasts or horns. It spoke of all tangible things like chains and angels. It's certainly easier to view the statement I quoted in Revelation as literal than the EW 294 statement. Many people do in fact view the Revelation statement as literal (many more than view the EW 294 as literal). So why do you accept the one text as is, but not the other? What about this? God wants us all to have common sense, and He wants us to reason from common sense.(3SP 217) Shouldn't this be accepted as well? It doesn't seem like you're taking this text to heart. Here's another one: The principles of kindness, mercy, and love, taught and exemplified by our Saviour, are a transcript of the will and character of God. Christ declared that He taught nothing except that which He had received from His Father. The principles of the divine government are in perfect harmony with the Saviour's precept, "Love your enemies." God executes justice upon the wicked, for the good of the universe, and even for the good of those upon whom His judgments are visited. (GC 541) Shouldn't this text be accepted as is?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Bobryan]
#110227
03/19/09 04:38 PM
03/19/09 04:38 PM
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OP
SDA
Active Member 2024
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
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I have an even better list -- starting with this...
"FOR IN SIX days the LORD CREATED The Heavens and the Earth"
"and God said Let there Be LIGHT" and evening and morning were the FIRST day.
"and God said Let there be an EXPANSE in the midst of the heavens" and evening and morning were the 2nd day.
"And God said - Let the Dry land appear" and evening and morning were the third day.
"And God MADE TWO great lights in the sky" and evening and morning were the 4th day.
"And God said let the waters TEAM with SWARMS of living creatures" and evening and morning were the 5th day
"And God said LET US MAKE MAN after our own image... and God FORMED MAN of the DUST of the ground" and evening and morning were the SIXTH day.
The old "God can not possibly do what the text says argument" got solved on the first two pages of the Bible - as it turne out.
in Christ,
Bob comparing the literal to the prophetic/symbolic lost me.
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Tom]
#110243
03/19/09 08:51 PM
03/19/09 08:51 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2015
Senior Member
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 793
Georgia, USA
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Hint - there is no apocalyptic speech being used in EW294 or GC673 -- no "Dragons with ten horns" no "women riding a ten-horned beast" no "souls under the altar" but as you point out it WOULD have been soooo much nicer for your speculative conclusions IF instead of seeing the blatantly literal language of EW294 and GC673 we saw something like this. The text I quoted in Revelation wasn't dealing with apocalyptic speech involving dragons or beasts or horns. It spoke of all tangible things like chains and angels. I beg to differ. If you look at the "angel with a chain" reference in Rev 20 you see that you are in fact talking about "a dragon getting chained". The symbol is in the text. The point remains. That is precisely the kind of language NOT being used in EW 294 and GC 673. in Christ, Bob
Last edited by Bobryan; 03/19/09 08:52 PM.
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Bobryan]
#110244
03/19/09 08:55 PM
03/19/09 08:55 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2015
Senior Member
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 793
Georgia, USA
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God wants us all to have common sense, and He wants us to reason from common sense.(3SP 217)
Shouldn't this be accepted as well? It doesn't seem like you're taking this text to heart.
I do take it to heart. I agrue that common sense dictates that we should not rationalize and eisegete texts to suit our preference. We have to deal with the details in the text - not try to get around them when they do not fit our preference. in Christ, Bob
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Bobryan]
#110250
03/19/09 10:56 PM
03/19/09 10:56 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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The text says: 1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, It does have the word "dragon" in it, but is says "the Devil, and Satan" which is clearly identifying who is being talked to. The rest of the language is speaking about normal everyday things, like keys, chains, and pits. As I pointed out, there are many people who believe this is literal, a lot more than think EW 294 is. I've asked you several times to explain how EW 294 would work if it were literal, but you seem unable to do that. If it's literal, you should be able to easily explain what's happening. Please explain how Bob, would you please explain how the following is literal:
just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained.
as well as this:
their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon.
I do take it to heart. I agrue that common sense dictates that we should not rationalize and eisegete texts to suit our preference. We have to deal with the details in the text - not try to get around them when they do not fit our preference.
Agreed! So why not do that? Why not apply some common sense to EW 294? Also, I've asked many times the following questions: 1.How is it you think God is capable of the cruelty you are suggesting takes place? 2.How does your view fit in with principles expressed elsewhere by EGW? For example: The principles of kindness, mercy, and love, taught and exemplified by our Saviour, are a transcript of the will and character of God. Christ declared that He taught nothing except that which He had received from His Father. The principles of the divine government are in perfect harmony with the Saviour's precept, "Love your enemies." God executes justice upon the wicked, for the good of the universe, and even for the good of those upon whom His judgments are visited. (GC 541) I just don't see how what you're suggesting makes any sense in the light of this paragraph. Could you explain that please? How are the principles of love, mercy and kindness manifested by burning a person alive, supernaturally keeping them alive so they can suffer more, until the last particle is consumed by literal fire?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Tom]
#110271
03/20/09 12:04 PM
03/20/09 12:04 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2015
Senior Member
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 793
Georgia, USA
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Quote:
1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
It does have the word "dragon" in it, but is says "the Devil, and Satan" which is clearly identifying who is being talked to. The rest of the language is speaking about normal everyday things, like keys, chains, and pits.
As you will notice, I have not argued that "in the case of Apocalyptic language - we can not figure out what the symbols mean". I am sure we both agree there. So probably not a real Dragon nor a real chain in Rev 20 for example. but the symbols there are a good example of the kind of language we do not see in GC 673, EW294. Which was the contrast point I was trying to make. in Christ, Bob
Last edited by Bobryan; 03/20/09 12:22 PM.
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Bobryan]
#110272
03/20/09 12:07 PM
03/20/09 12:07 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2015
Senior Member
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 793
Georgia, USA
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As I pointed out, there are many people who believe this is literal, a lot more than think EW 294 is.
1. I don't know of any Chrisian group teaching that Rev 20:1 is speaking of a real dragon. 2. I can't imagine that such an unknown Christian group thinking that an actual dragon is being chained in Rev 20 -- would be larger than the 15 million SDAs that take EW 294 and GC673 as being actually true as written and not as apocalyptic symbols. in Christ, Bob
Last edited by Bobryan; 03/20/09 12:08 PM.
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Bobryan]
#110274
03/20/09 12:10 PM
03/20/09 12:10 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2015
Senior Member
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 793
Georgia, USA
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I've asked you several times to explain how EW 294 would work if it were literal, but you seem unable to do that. If it's literal, you should be able to easily explain what's happening. Please explain how Bob, would you please explain how the following is literal
The literary style of writing that we see in EW294 and GC673 is not apocalyptic symbols. NOR have I ever seen the White Estate claiming that it was merely symbols using exaggerated hyperbole. You are welcome to find such a quote from them -- I would love to see it. in Christ, Bob
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Bobryan]
#110275
03/20/09 12:13 PM
03/20/09 12:13 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2015
Senior Member
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 793
Georgia, USA
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Also, I've asked many times the following questions:
1.How is it you think God is capable of the cruelty you are suggesting takes place?
2.How does your view fit in with principles expressed elsewhere by EGW? For example:
And I keep saying that EW294 and GC673 are not "my suggestions" nor my authorship nor "my thinking". Though you keep repositioning it that way. I also point out that we have no literary evidence AND no indication from the White Estate that these specific pages are using exaggerated hyperbole or dark apocalyptic symbols. Which means that you have a non-starter for a question assuming things not in evidence. in Christ, Bob
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