You implied these things. You said, "I don't understand why it is valid" and then gave an explanation as to why it is not valid. Your explanation was valid! You're right; it is not valid. The reason you're not understanding it is because you're trying to understand something which is not valid.

Do you think the infliction of death is the organic result of sin? If not, how do you explain God commanding capital punishment?

T: In your view, God, to make people pay for their sins, causes them to suffer and die. That's their punishment.

M: No, that's not my view. I believe the wicked will be punished according to their sinfulness. They will experience emotional and physical agony as a result of punishment.

T: Was Jesus' death like the death of the wicked? Or unlike it? If it was unlike it, how could the wicked be paying the same price Jesus paid?

M: Both. But there are way more dissimilarities. The wicked will pay the price for their own sins. Jesus paid the price for all sins. There are physical dissimilarities too. Jesus was beaten and abused and nailed to a cross. The wicked, on the other hand, will not be.

T: This just makes my point. It's rather ironic. You don't think I believe that Christ paid the price for our sins, but I believe that Christ experienced what the wicked will experience, suffering and death having nothing to do with literal fire, but with a sense of God's wrath, of being separated from God. On the other hand, you think Christ's death is way different than the death of the wicked, so He couldn't have paid the price they pay, nor could He have suffered their death.

M: 1. I do believe you think Jesus paid a price for our sins.

2. I do believe the wicked will pay the price for their sins.

I'm curious, Tom, do you think Jesus experienced suffering like a sinner or like our Savior?

T: Both

M: Was He so in love with Himself and sinning that heaven and the very presence of the Father would have been torture, that He would have desired death? Was He so angry and bitter that He wanted to shred to pieces those He blamed for leading Him astray? Was He deluded and deceived into thinking He could overpower the inhabitants of New Jerusalem and gain access to the tree of life and live forever? Was the earth engulfed in fire and flames while such thoughts and feelings were flooding His soul?

I think it is probably safe to assume you agree with me that Jesus' experience was considerably different than what it will be like for the wicked at the end of time. He longed for the Father's love and comfort; whereas the wicked will want to hide from Him. Jesus felt compassion for those around Him; whereas the wicked will seek to kill them. Jesus was beaten and nailed to a cross; whereas the wicked will be unbound and unbeaten. Jesus conquered the second death; whereas the wicked will die the second death.

T: He bore our sin. He was "made to be sin." Just as we experience His righteousness, even though we have no intrinsic righteousness of our own, so He experienced our sin, although He sinned not in thought word or deed. As real as our experience of righteousness is, so real was His experience of sin. The sin was ours, not His, yet He experienced it as if it were His own, just as our righteousness is His, not ours, yet we experience it as if it were ours.

M: What is ironic about what I think and believe?

T: You think the wicked will pay a price for sin as something artificially imposed, that Christ likely payed a price for sin as something also artificially imposed, and that the latter undoes the former (for those who comply with the conditions) yet the latter is completely different than the former.

M: The expression, "Bring it on", comes to mind. By their actions sinners say, Bring it on, that is, punish me for my sins. "All they that hate me love death."

T: No, this isn't the idea at all. Here's the idea:

M: Correct...

T: Please don't do this. I can't make any sense of this. I write, "Here's the idea:" which you cut off, and then right "Correct." What's correct? We don't know, because there's nothing after "Here's the idea." At least summarize what was said.

M: If so, does this mean the infliction of pain and punishment is part of it?

T: Not if you mean God's doing something to inflict pain. Yes if you mean like how poison inflicts pain on its victims.

M: Have you forgotten the fact the Jews and the Romans inflicted pain and punishment? So, if you insist Jesus' experience is indicative of what the wicked will go through at the end of time, then you have to agree with me that it will involve the infliction of pain and punishment.

T: What do the Jews and Romans have to do with "Not if you mean God's doing something to inflict pain."?

You didn't answer my questions. Nor did you address my observations. Please do.

There is nothing artificial about capital punishment.

M: If so, does this mean the infliction of pain and punishment is part of it?

T: Not if you mean God's doing something to inflict pain. Yes if you mean like how poison inflicts pain on its victims.

M: Have you forgotten the fact the Jews and the Romans inflicted pain and punishment? So, if you insist Jesus' experience is indicative of what the wicked will go through at the end of time, then you have to agree with me that it will involve the infliction of pain and punishment.

T: What do the Jews and Romans have to do with "Not if you mean God's doing something to inflict pain."?

M:Jesus' death involved the infliction of pain by the Jews and the Romans. And, according to you, His experience is indicative of what the wicked will go through at the end of time. Therefore, you must necessarily believe the punishment of the wicked will involve the infliction of physical pain. We haven't gotten into who will inflict their physical pain. I believe it will be God. I don't know what you believe.

M: You didn't answer my questions. Nor did you address my observations. Please do.

T: I see a lot of writing! It sure looks like addressing comments and answering questions. You'll have to specify something specific.

M: There is nothing artificial about capital punishment.

T: I said "artificially imposed." "Arbitrarily imposed" would be more accurate ("arbitrary" as in "according to individual discretion," not "capricious"), but I avoided "arbitrary," because you seem to misunderstand that word. The point is that it's not a direct or natural consequence of sin, but an artificially (or arbitrarily) imposed one.

T: Reading "Correct," you specify what was correct.

M: If so, does this mean the infliction of pain and punishment is part of it?

T: Not if you mean God's doing something to inflict pain. Yes if you mean like how poison inflicts pain on its victims.

M: Have you forgotten the fact the Jews and the Romans inflicted pain and punishment? So, if you insist Jesus' experience is indicative of what the wicked will go through at the end of time, then you have to agree with me that it will involve the infliction of pain and punishment.

T: What do the Jews and Romans have to do with "Not if you mean God's doing something to inflict pain."?

M: Jesus' death involved the infliction of pain by the Jews and the Romans. And, according to you, His experience is indicative of what the wicked will go through at the end of time. Therefore, you must necessarily believe the punishment of the wicked will involve the infliction of physical pain. We haven't gotten into who will inflict their physical pain. I believe it will be God. I don't know what you believe.

T: I'm talking about the second death.

1. Was He so in love with Himself and sinning that heaven and the very presence of the Father would have been torture, that He would have desired death?

2. Was He so angry and bitter that He wanted to shred to pieces those He blamed for leading Him astray?

3. Was He deluded and deceived into thinking He could overpower the inhabitants of New Jerusalem and gain access to the tree of life and live forever?

4. Was the earth engulfed in fire and flames while such thoughts and feelings were flooding His soul?

5. He longed for the Father's love and comfort; whereas the wicked will want to hide from Him.

6. Jesus felt compassion for those around Him; whereas the wicked will seek to kill them.

7. Jesus was beaten and nailed to a cross; whereas the wicked will be unbound and unbeaten.

8. Jesus conquered the second death; whereas the wicked will die the second death.

M: Jesus' death involved the infliction of pain by the Jews and the Romans. And, according to you, His experience is indicative of what the wicked will go through at the end of time. Therefore, you must necessarily believe the punishment of the wicked will involve the infliction of physical pain. We haven't gotten into who will inflict their physical pain. I believe it will be God. I don't know what you believe.

T: I'm talking about the second death.

Me too. Jesus experienced the second death. You believe His experience is what the wicked will go through at the end of time. Therefore, you must necessarily believe the punishment of the wicked will involve the infliction of physical pain. Actually, you can divorce this aspect of Jesus’ experience from what you think will happen to the wicked at the end of time. Is that what you’d like to do?

1. Was He so in love with Himself and sinning that heaven and the very presence of the Father would have been torture, that He would have desired death?

T: This is a rhetorical question. Since you say Jesus experienced the second death, and given Jesus didn't experience this, then this needn't form a part of the second death.

2. Was He so angry and bitter that He wanted to shred to pieces those He blamed for leading Him astray?

T: Same answer.

3. Was He deluded and deceived into thinking He could overpower the inhabitants of New Jerusalem and gain access to the tree of life and live forever?

T: I don't see why you even think this has something to do with the second death for the wicked, but same answer.

4. Was the earth engulfed in fire and flames while such thoughts and feelings were flooding His soul?

T: Same answer as 3.

5. He longed for the Father's love and comfort; whereas the wicked will want to hide from Him.

T: Here the answer is the reverse. Given that the wicked experience the second death, clearly this isn't a necessary part of the experience. Although I think the wicked really do long for the Father's love and comfort in a way.

6. Jesus felt compassion for those around Him; whereas the wicked will seek to kill them.

T: Same answer.

7. Jesus was beaten and nailed to a cross; whereas the wicked will be unbound and unbeaten.

T: This has nothing to do with the second death.

8. Jesus conquered the second death; whereas the wicked will die the second death.

T: Ok. I'm not sure why you're making this point.

T: IMO you're going at this backwards. We know both the wicked and Jesus experience the second death. Instead of looking for things which are different, you should be looking for things that are the same. It is the things that are the *same* that define what the second death entails.

M: Jesus' death involved the infliction of pain by the Jews and the Romans. And, according to you, His experience is indicative of what the wicked will go through at the end of time. Therefore, you must necessarily believe the punishment of the wicked will involve the infliction of physical pain. We haven't gotten into who will inflict their physical pain. I believe it will be God. I don't know what you believe.

T: I'm talking about the second death.

M: Me too. Jesus experienced the second death. You believe His experience is what the wicked will go through at the end of time. Therefore, you must necessarily believe the punishment of the wicked will involve the infliction of physical pain. Actually, you can divorce this aspect of Jesus’ experience from what you think will happen to the wicked at the end of time. Is that what you’d like to do?

T: I don't know what you're asking here. You say Jesus experienced the second death (which I agree with). Clearly the wicked will experience it. So what's in common with their experience? That's what we need to look at. This should be clear.

M: There is nothing artificial about capital punishment.

T: I said "artificially imposed." "Arbitrarily imposed" would be more accurate ("arbitrary" as in "according to individual discretion," not "capricious"), but I avoided "arbitrary," because you seem to misunderstand that word. The point is that it's not a direct or natural consequence of sin, but an artificially (or arbitrarily) imposed one.

T: Reading "Correct," you specify what was correct.

The following inspired this topic: