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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #111001
03/31/09 09:02 PM
03/31/09 09:02 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
T:We can't receive pardon for sins we haven't committed yet, because pardon involves the recognition of having sinned.

E:Yes we can, if we walk in the spirit of Christ, then we have that assurance.


I didn't say anything about assurance, but about pardon. We cannot receive pardon for something we haven't done yet. If you're married, and you know your spouse, then you may know that you will be forgiven for whatever you may do in the future that hurts him, because you know him. But you can't receive pardon for something you might do in the future unless you do it. You can have the assurance that you will be pardoned when the need arises, which is where assurance comes in, but to receive pardon there's a sequence of events, which runs along the lines of sin, recognition of sin, request for pardon, acceptance of pardon granted.

We know, because of God's character, that any pardon we need will be available should we desire it.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #111003
03/31/09 09:39 PM
03/31/09 09:39 PM
E
Elle  Offline
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
T:We can't receive pardon for sins we haven't committed yet, because pardon involves the recognition of having sinned.
E:Yes we can, if we walk in the spirit of Christ, then we have that assurance.

I didn't say anything about assurance, but about pardon. We cannot receive pardon for something we haven't done yet. If you're married, and you know your spouse, then you may know that you will be forgiven for whatever you may do in the future that hurts him, because you know him. But you can't receive pardon for something you might do in the future unless you do it. You can have the assurance that you will be pardoned when the need arises, which is where assurance comes in, but to receive pardon there's a sequence of events, which runs along the lines of sin, recognition of sin, request for pardon, acceptance of pardon granted.

We know, because of God's character, that any pardon we need will be available should we desire it.
Your missing the point in regards to futur, because your focuss is on your performance and believe that you need to confess all sins. Do you have the fear that maybe you forgot to confess one of them? How about your heart wasn't in a contrite enough state when you confessed?

When you have the mind of Christ in you, He will give you assurance, peace, victory and there's no more condemnation.

Pardon/assurance it comes to the same thing. You're being too technical and the focuss moves unto what you have to do(law/fleshy oriented .... moving into righteousness through works). If you walk that way, you're constantly moving out of faith. With Christ mind in you, let Him deal with the details, and hold onto the Biblical promises that is made through the death and life of Christ.

Originally Posted By: Rm 8:4
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Tom, I don't feel we should continue this here because we are out of the topic. If you want to continue, tell me where to go. For myself, I'm done. I don't think there's any need to go further.


Blessings
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Elle] #111013
03/31/09 10:25 PM
03/31/09 10:25 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Your missing the point in regards to future, because your focus is on your performance and believe that you need to confess all sins.


I don't focus on my performance at all. I've not mentioned one thing regarding my performance. I've simply pointed out a very simple logical fact, which is you can't be pardoned for something until you've committed something to be pardoned for. I gave a simple illustration to show this. You do something that hurts a loved one. You ask for forgiveness. They either forgive you or they don't. Assuming they do, you receive that forgiveness. You can't receive the forgiveness until, at a minimum, you've done something that needs to be forgiven.

Quote:
Do you have the fear that maybe you forgot to confess one of them? How about your heart wasn't in a contrite enough state when you confessed?


No. I mentioned that God is forgiveness personified. By seeing God revealed in Jesus Christ, I have no doubts that God forgives me. By the way, this is something Waggoner deals with in one of the books I mentioned, "Christ and His Righteousness."

Quote:
When you have the mind of Christ in you, He will give you assurance, peace, victory and there's no more condemnation.


I think you're talking about something else here. I was pointing out you can't receive pardon for something you haven't done yet.

Quote:
Pardon/assurance it comes to the same thing. You're being too technical and the focuss moves unto what you have to do(law/fleshy oriented .... moving into righteousness through works). If you walk that way, you're constantly moving out of faith. With Christ mind in you, let Him deal with the details, and hold onto the Biblical promises that is made through the death and life of Christ.


Elle, I think you're not paying attention to what I'm saying. I think you have me confused with others you've met. It doesn't seem to me that you understand my theology at all, as you're imputing a number of things to me that I don't believe whatsoever.

For one thing, I've not focused one iota any a single thing that I have to do. Regarding what needs to be done:

Quote:
28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” (John 6:28-29)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #111014
03/31/09 10:37 PM
03/31/09 10:37 PM
E
Elle  Offline
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Sorry Tom for not listening to you and not addressing your questions. I really don't want to go any further. Nothing personal, it's just I'm not capable nor want to debate these.


Blessings
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: asygo] #111018
03/31/09 11:21 PM
03/31/09 11:21 PM
W
William  Offline
Full Member
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 158
London, England
Quote:
The article does not address the issue of the "corrupt channels" requiring Christ's covering blood. All it does is move the cleansing into the believer's body. It doesn't even explain what "passing through" means if the blood is sprinkled in the believer's heart.

In any case, the question remains: Did Jesus have such "corrupt channels" that needed cleansing?

I received this response from a credible mate who shall remain anonymous:

Quote:
The article is a corrective, which means that it is not intended to give a complete, full-orbed, comprehensive, all-around view of a subject.

By definition, it addresses and seeks to correct a particular viewpoint—a viewpoint that is itself a lopsided view of truth (that is, the view that the article seeks to correct).

The article clearly outlines the issue it addresses. As far as the “difference between imputation and impartation of righteousness,” the article clearly upholds the need for both.

Past sins require a legal declaration of righteousness (imputed). Present righteousness is imparted to us so we can live the life of Christ. It is Christ living out His life within us (Gal. 2:20).
 
The article is in harmony with the following quote, which should forever settle the issue in Adventists’ minds:

"Our only ground of hope is in the righteousness of Christ imputed to us, and in that wrought by His Spirit working in and through us.” {SC 63.1}

The ground of our salvation (hope) is twofold: imputed and imparted righteousness.

Again this is brought out further in the next quote. Note the imputed righteousness for past sins and the imparted for ongoing sanctification.
 
"The law requires righteousness—a righteous life, a perfect character; and this man has not to give. He cannot meet the claims of God's holy law. But Christ, coming to the earth as man, lived a holy life, and developed a perfect character. These He offers as a free gift to all who will receive them. His life stands for the life of men. Thus they have remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. More than this, Christ imbues men with the attributes of God. He builds up the human character after the similitude of the divine character, a goodly fabric of spiritual strength and beauty. Thus the very righteousness of the law is fulfilled in the believer in Christ. God can "be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." Romans 3:26." {DA 762.2}
 
Can you see the twofold action above—imputed righteousness for past sins, imparted for the ongoing present. And only thus can God be just in justifying the sinner.

Arnold asks, Did Jesus have corrupt channels? The answer is, No. Why? Because he never sinned. That is the difference between Him and us.

And this gets to the very issue of the definition of sin and its cure.

What are the corrupt channels that Ellen White refers to? Is it the fallen nature of man or the carnal, sinful nature that man develops by choosing sin over righteousness?

Christ had the same nature we are born with, including all its inherited weaknesses and tendencies toward pleasing the flesh.

The difference between Him and all other humans is that He never once gave in to the pull of the flesh. Thus no corrupted channels.

The author of the response is obviously not a member of this forum and thus cannot respond to any rebuttals if any should exist.

Lucky him! Haha.

William


:: Harmony not hate leads your opponent's mind to wisdom; beating him there always with tender heart. —Anonymous
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: William] #111023
03/31/09 11:41 PM
03/31/09 11:41 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Sorry Tom for not listening to you and not addressing your questions. I really don't want to go any further. Nothing personal, it's just I'm not capable nor want to debate these.


Ok. Sorry if I was abrupt, but I have over 10,000 posts here, and in not one of them have I stressed our performance.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: asygo] #111030
04/01/09 12:15 AM
04/01/09 12:15 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
This was from the Dreams and Visions thread (post #110678), but is more appropriate here.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
I believe Jesus inherited "a form and nature" like us. I also believe He came with no propensity to sin. Jesus was not inclined to sin.

This is something I did not expect from you. You believe that Jesus was not inclined to sin? So that means that He did not have the "bent to evil" that the rest of us have?

Last edited by asygo; 04/01/09 12:23 AM. Reason: fixed subject

By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: asygo] #111033
04/01/09 12:58 AM
04/01/09 12:58 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Of course Jesus was not inclined to sin. Jesus Christ also did not have a "bent to evil." Jesus Christ took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature. Our sinful nature has certain tendencies, which Christ took upon Him. But Christ never yielded to the temptations of His hereditary inclinations, so it would be very improper to suggest that Jesus Christ was inclined to sin.

Neither Ellen White, nor W. W. Prescott, nor A. T. Jones, nor E. J. Waggoner, S. N. Haskell, nor any other of our pioneer SDA's wrote such a thing.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #111035
04/01/09 01:12 AM
04/01/09 01:12 AM
W
William  Offline
Full Member
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 158
London, England
Quote:
Jesus Christ also did not have a "bent to evil."

Are we equating a bent to evil as evil itself, or the pulls of sinful flesh?

Paulson bellowed that "a bent toward evil is not the same as evil itself. Nowhere does Inspiration equate the two as one and the same. Both Scripture and Ellen White are clear that such a bent does not of itself constitute sin."

Just making an observation.

William


:: Harmony not hate leads your opponent's mind to wisdom; beating him there always with tender heart. —Anonymous
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: William] #111037
04/01/09 01:29 AM
04/01/09 01:29 AM
teresaq  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
Originally Posted By: William
Quote:
Jesus Christ also did not have a "bent to evil."

Are we equating a bent to evil as evil itself, or the pulls of sinful flesh?

Paulson bellowed that "a bent toward evil is not the same as evil itself. Nowhere does Inspiration equate the two as one and the same. Both Scripture and Ellen White are clear that such a bent does not of itself constitute sin."

Just making an observation.

William


did he "bellow" or believe? grin

a bent toward evil implies wanting evil. or does anyone see it differently?


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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