No. I think this is scary. Very scary. Is there anything you wouldn't do?



And if that didn't happen?



The same way as you? No.



When you say "even though we do not understand the reasons why"? do you mean all the reasons, or any of the reasons?

One of the first lessons a child needs to learn is the lesson of obedience. Before he is old enough to reason, he may be taught to obey. {CG 82.4}

A dog can learn to obey without being able to reason as well. This doesn't mean we shouldn't reason too.

God has given us reasoning abilities, and it is God's desire that we use these abilities.

Using reason to evaluate evidence is one thing. But using reason to filter God's commands is quite another. God wants us to use reason, but I don't think He intended to lose His job.

Do you think there is anything God wouldn't command me to do? Also, do you think it was scary for Abraham? Or, do you think it was a beautiful thing that he obeyed God without questioning why?


Can you think of a situation in which God wouldn't call it off?


Please explain the differences between what I believe about it and what you do.


Use Abraham as an example. How many reasons did God give him when He commanded him to sacrifice his son? And, did Abraham understand those reasons?

Also, what was the basis of Abraham's obedience? Was it based on perfect understanding of the reasons why God commanded him to sacrifice his son? Or, was it based solely on the fact he trusted God and believed things would make sense eventually? And, did believing that God could resurrect his son if need be count as a reason why he should obey God?

This is a red herring. No one is saying anything about "filtering God's commands."

Let's make an apples to apples comparison. If God does not ask us to believe without giving evidence, the only way it could be true that God wants us to obey Him without evaluating evidence would be if obedience has nothing to do with believing. Is this what you're wishing to assert? If not, then reason does come into play.



So if we reason, God can't do His job? This seems to me to be the opposite of what God wishes to communicate to us. For example, to present ourselves a living sacrifice is our reasonable service, which is to say, as we use our reason to evaluate the evidence, we are constrained to give ourselves to God, presenting ourselves as a living sacrifice. To present ourselves a living sacrifice is to love God with all our heart and soul and mind and strength, which is obedience to the first and greatest commandment.

Let's answer my question first please. You're saying that if God commanded you to kill your son, you would "of course" do it. Is there anything you wouldn't do?



Can you? This is a problem you need to resolve, MM. It doesn't apply to me, because I'm not willing to "of course" kill because I hear a voice I identify as God's voice telling me to do so.

What happens if you're wrong about the voice? That would be a situation where God wouldn't call it off. You'd be killing your son, or some other terrible thing, under the delusion that God told you to do so. People do this sort of thing all the time.

I asked you earlier in this thread how you would know if a voice telling you to do something was God's or not, and you responded very well, saying you would do so by knowing God's character and His law. You seem to be backing away from this now, being willing to "of course" kill your son, which is, "of course" both contrary to God's character and His law. Would you be willing to "of course" do other things that you perceive to be contrary to His character and His law? (I'm under the assumption that you perceive killing your son to be contrary to His character and law. Please remember my question was related to you and not Abraham, whose situation was different than yours is now. You affirmed you would be willing to "of course" kill your son if God so commanded.)



You don't seem to evaluate the feasibility of commands based on your conscience and knowledge of God's character. That is, it appears to me, you would do something contrary to your beliefs as to what is right if you believed God were telling you to do so.



I asked you one question, and you ask me six back without answering the one I asked. Let's step back a moment. You asked me if I see a difference between obeying God on the basis of an intelligent appreciation of His character and obeying Him even though we don't understand the reasons why. I'm asking you if by "the reasons why" you mean "all of the reasons why" or "any of the reasons why." I don't see why Abraham needs to be discussed to answer this question.

Didn't you say that my father was justified in disregarding "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy" in Exodus because *he* can't see any good reason for it? It's not that he's not sure God commanded it. It's not that he thinks God commmanded another day to be kept holy. It's not that he believes it's a sin to do it. It's just that he sees no reason to do it.

It's not a red herring. It is the biggest problem I see with your position. Of course, it is entirely possible that this is not your position. If so, please feel free to clarify.


Believing and obedience are closely tied. Our difference is in what to believe. My position is that it is sufficient to believe that God is wise and all-loving; that's enough for me to obey whatever He says. Your position, as I understand it, is that you will only obey if YOU believe there is a good reason for the command.


We can reason while letting God keep His job. But if you require God to be subject to your reason, which is subject to the weakness and infirmity of humanity, you've got it upside down.

Note that the "simplicity and faith of a little child" is honorable, not comparable to an animal's obedience.

I think I've said it in this thread before, that you and I would see things more closely if you study the child-training principles in the SOP. I've studied it, and tried it out in real life, and I can attest that allowing a child to trust his reason more than his parents' word is potentially fatal. The same holds true for our Heavenly Father and His children.

I didn't say anything about filtering God's commands. You're somehow equating not believing there is a reason to do something with filtering God's commands. Please explain your reasoning here.



I don't think this is sufficient. What if God commands you to do something you think is wrong? (I mean morally wrong). Would you do it? Do you think God would do such a thing?



I'm arguing against the idea that God wants us to obey Him with no idea as to why. I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing. I'm not saying we should set ourselves up as a judge over God, which sounds like what you're suggesting I'm saying.



Of course. It sounds like you may be understanding me to be saying something I'm not.

Again, what I'm saying is I don't believe God wants us to obey Him without having any idea as to why we are doing what He says. I'm speaking of moral issues here.

God says something (e.g. "keep the Sabbath holy") and you refuse to obey because you don't see a good reason for it. That, in my book, is a clear example of filtering God's commands by human reason.


This is just what I'm talking about.

"God commands you to do something." If that is a known fact, "Would I do it?" is not even a question the true disciple asks. Of course he would do it. The only question at that point is how to do it.

What if he thought it was morally wrong? He has two options: 1) He can admit that God has higher moral standards and he should learn from God rather than presume to sit in judgment on the morality of God's commands.

2) He should find himself a god who measures up to his own standards of morality.

If he chooses option 2, he'll find one that looks eerily similar to himself. And he'll start thinking that he's doing pretty good, since he's reflecting his god pretty well.

The only safe option is the simple option: If God says it, do it. If something doesn't make sense, you will not gain any light or wisdom by withholding obedience, which only results in more darkness.