Hi Teresa:

Sorry for the long delay in responding. My week was full of other issues and did not get a chance to get back to the forum here.

I think of the plagues as I do the creation of the week. Each plague is quoted by the different angels that bring the plague out. As I see each plague as one event after another.

The key words that tells me this is a sequence of angels and plagues are from: seven angels, first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth. And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea. And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters.

There is a space of verses after and before the fourth angel:

16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

Then it says:

And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun.

There is another point that comes to mind that there is an event that takes place in heaven between the sixth and the seventh plague.

16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

We have been taught by the Spirit of Prophecy that is when Jesus leaves the most Holy Place and comes to meet His redeemed and take them home.

"There is a mighty earthquake, "such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great" (Rev. 16:17, 18). The firmament appears to open and shut. The glory from the throne of God seems flashing through. The mountains shake like a reed in the wind, and ragged rocks are scattered on every side. The whole earth heaves and swells like the waves of the sea. Its surface is breaking up. Its very foundations seem to be giving way. Mountain chains are sinking. Inhabited islands disappear. The seaports that have become like Sodom for wickedness are swallowed up by the angry waters. Great hailstones, every one "about the weight of a talent," are doing their work of destruction (verses 19, 21) {LDE 271.1}

Clearly the verses from 16:17 through the end of the seventh plague are one whole event at the coming of Jesus. These verse are not part of the plagues from the first angel to the sixth angel.

And again from Early Writings is stated that the plagues are God's wrath pour out to this world:

"Satan was trying his every art to hold them where they were, until the sealing was past, until the covering was drawn over God's people, and they left without a shelter from the burning wrath of God, in the seven last plagues. God has begun to draw this covering over His people, and it will soon be drawn over all who are to have a shelter in the day of slaughter. God will work in power for His people; and Satan will be permitted to work." {EW 44.2}

What to me is a very simple understanding of what God says can be made into complicated and confusing ideas. God says, is enough for me to realize God is speaking in a language that all can understand. It does not take a educated person to understand the world of God.

If a young girl of 16 called by God to witness to a people God can witness to each one of us through the same power given to her, the Holy Spirit.

From "The Desire of Ages"



Note:

1.Rebellion was not to be overcome by force.
2.Compelling power is found only under Satan's government.
3.The Lord's principles are not of this order.
4.His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used.
5.God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power.

If one takes these statements seriously, I don't see how one can think that God used force to overcome Satan.

I think the problem is that we are so used to seeing things according to how things operate in our world. Force and violence are how things get done, so we assume God employs these same methods. The idea that God could achieve His means by "truth and love" seems fantastic, unbelievable.

Yet if we consider the life and teachings of Christ, we see they are in perfect harmony with the principles which the SOP lays out. Christ was all about truth and love, and totally against force and violence.

If I missed this in some post, please accept my apology for repeating it:

The Strange Act of God

For the Lord shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act. Isa. 28:21. {FLB 338.1}

"With unerring accuracy the Infinite One still keeps an account with all nations. While His mercy is tendered, with calls to repentance, this account will remain open; but when the figures reach a certain amount which God has fixed, the ministry of His wrath commences. The account is closed. Divine patience ceases. There is no more pleading of mercy in their behalf." {FLB 338.2}

"To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked." Eze. 33:11. Yet He will "by no means clear the guilty." "The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked." Ex. 34:6, 7; Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. The severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor may be judged by the Lord's reluctance to execute justice. The nation with which He bears long, and which He will not smite until it has filled up the measure of its iniquity in God's account, will finally drink the cup of wrath unmixed with mercy." {FLB 338.5}

"God's judgments will be visited upon those who are seeking to oppress and destroy His people. His long forbearance with the wicked emboldens men in transgression, but their punishment is nonetheless certain and terrible because it is long delayed. "The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act." Isaiah 28:21. To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked." Ezekiel 33:11. The Lord is "merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin." Yet He will "by no means clear the guilty." The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked." Exodus 34:6, 7; Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. The severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor may be judged by the Lord's reluctance to execute justice. The nation with which He bears long, and which He will not smite until it has filled up the measure of its iniquity in God's account, will finally drink the cup of wrath unmixed with mercy." {GC 627.2}

"The forbearance that God has exercised toward the wicked, emboldens men in transgression; but their punishment will be none the less certain and terrible for being long delayed. "The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act." Isaiah 28:21. To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live." Ezekiel 33:11. The Lord is "merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, . . . forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin." Yet He will "by no means clear the guilty." Exodus 34:6, 7. While He does not delight in vengeance, He will execute judgment upon the transgressors of His law. He is forced to do this, to preserve the inhabitants of the earth from utter depravity and ruin. In order to save some He must cut off those who have become hardened in sin. "The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked." Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. And the very fact of His reluctance to execute justice testifies to the enormity of the sins that call forth His judgments and to the severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor." {PP 628.1}

These are not passive words, but the word "act" means something that someone does. Sister White says very clearly that this God's strange act, not passive, but taking things into His own hands. He will execute judgment and He will execute punishment as well by His Strange Act.

sitting still is also an "act".



When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old. {GC 614.1}
A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}
Those who honor the law of God have been accused of bringing judgments upon the world, and they will be regarded as the cause of the fearful convulsions of nature and the strife and bloodshed among men that are filling the earth with woe. The power attending the last warning has enraged the wicked; their anger is kindled against all who have received the message, and Satan will excite to still greater intensity the spirit of hatred and persecution. {GC 614.3}
When God's presence was finally withdrawn from the Jewish nation, priests and people knew it not. Though under the control of Satan, and swayed by the most horrible and malignant passions, they still regarded themselves as the chosen of God. The ministration in the temple continued; sacrifices were offered upon its polluted altars, and daily the divine blessing was invoked upon a people guilty of the blood of God's dear Son and seeking to slay His ministers and apostles. So when the irrevocable decision of the sanctuary has been pronounced and the destiny of the world has been forever fixed, the inhabitants of the earth will know it not. The forms of religion will be continued by a people from whom the Spirit of God has been finally withdrawn; and the satanic zeal with which the prince of evil will inspire them for the accomplishment of his malignant designs, will bear the semblance of zeal for God. {GC 615.1}

and
The people see that they have been deluded. They accuse one another of having led them to destruction; but all unite in heaping their bitterest condemnation upon the ministers. Unfaithful pastors have prophesied smooth things; they have led their hearers to make void the law of God and to persecute those who would keep it holy. Now, in their despair, these teachers confess before the world their work of deception. The multitudes are filled with fury. "We are lost!" they cry, "and you are the cause of our ruin;" and they turn upon the false shepherds. The very ones that once admired them most will pronounce the most dreadful curses upon them. The very hands that once crowned them with laurels will be raised for their destruction. The swords which were to slay God's people are now employed to destroy their enemies. Everywhere there is strife and bloodshed. {GC 655.4}

he time has come for God to vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. Now the controversy is not alone with Satan, but with men. "The Lord hath a controversy with the nations;" "He will give them that are wicked to the sword." {GC 656.1}

And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the Lord shall be among them; and they shall lay hold everyone on the hand of his neighbor, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbor." Zechariah 14:13

"And the slain of the Lord shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried." Jeremiah 25:33

That doesn't quite answer my question re: 2 Kings 1:12. When the Bible says that "the fire of God came down from heaven and consumed him and his fifty," did that fire come from God/Jesus?

Hi Teresa:

Not sure what your point is, but my understanding of the word ACT is as followed: the doing of a thing, something done voluntarily, the process of doing something.

I guess doing nothing could be seen as an act of doing nothing, but when we are looking at "God's Strange Act" it is far removed from my mind as God doing nothing.

Looking at the word wrath the definition that I was able to find says: strong vengeful anger or indignation or retributory punishment or divine chastisement.

How one does those things by doing nothing is beyond what I can understand, but I guess in this day and age anything is possible.

I see God as a action being. Everything that He does is active whether it be in His creative power as well as in His wrath and His Strange Act. I do not see God as passive even when He stands back and allows us our free will. He is ever working to bring us to Him or he allows us to do our thing, but He is ever there longing and working to keep us so that we can have eternal life with Him.

Those that have rejected those actions by Him are the ones that see Him as doing nothing. My sister I am sad to say is one of those people, thus she has rejected her Creator and life giver.

we are told that the bible should define itself, yet we still go outside of it for understanding dont we?

When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old. {GC 614.1}
A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}
Those who honor the law of God have been accused of bringing judgments upon the world, and they will be regarded as the cause of the fearful convulsions of nature and the strife and bloodshed among men that are filling the earth with woe. The power attending the last warning has enraged the wicked; their anger is kindled against all who have received the message, and Satan will excite to still greater intensity the spirit of hatred and persecution. {GC 614.3}
When God's presence was finally withdrawn from the Jewish nation, priests and people knew it not. Though under the control of Satan, and swayed by the most horrible and malignant passions, they still regarded themselves as the chosen of God. The ministration in the temple continued; sacrifices were offered upon its polluted altars, and daily the divine blessing was invoked upon a people guilty of the blood of God's dear Son and seeking to slay His ministers and apostles. So when the irrevocable decision of the sanctuary has been pronounced and the destiny of the world has been forever fixed, the inhabitants of the earth will know it not. The forms of religion will be continued by a people from whom the Spirit of God has been finally withdrawn; and the satanic zeal with which the prince of evil will inspire them for the accomplishment of his malignant designs, will bear the semblance of zeal for God. {GC 615.1}

and
The people see that they have been deluded. They accuse one another of having led them to destruction; but all unite in heaping their bitterest condemnation upon the ministers. Unfaithful pastors have prophesied smooth things; they have led their hearers to make void the law of God and to persecute those who would keep it holy. Now, in their despair, these teachers confess before the world their work of deception. The multitudes are filled with fury. "We are lost!" they cry, "and you are the cause of our ruin;" and they turn upon the false shepherds. The very ones that once admired them most will pronounce the most dreadful curses upon them. The very hands that once crowned them with laurels will be raised for their destruction. The swords which were to slay God's people are now employed to destroy their enemies. Everywhere there is strife and bloodshed. {GC 655.4}

he time has come for God to vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. Now the controversy is not alone with Satan, but with men. "The Lord hath a controversy with the nations;" "He will give them that are wicked to the sword." {GC 656.1}

And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the Lord shall be among them; and they shall lay hold everyone on the hand of his neighbor, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbor." Zechariah 14:13

"And the slain of the Lord shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried." Jeremiah 25:33

the one extreme to the other mentality really surprises me.

The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed... {GC 614.1}

When God's presence was finally withdrawn from the Jewish nation, priests and people knew it not. {GC 615.1}

this may not be the picture of an angry, vengeful "God" we are accustomed to but it is the all-powerful One. it is the power that is exercised in our behalf to protect us from untold evil and calamities that, we are told, we shall find out how many when we get to heaven.

in the destruction of jerusalem a mighty and powerful God gave his people up to the god they wanted.

could God have done any worse to them than what they did to each other and eventually suffered?

Hi Teresa:

Nothing should surprise anyone in these last days. We know that Satan is as a roaring lion seeking who he will devour. When the four winds are let loose and God has withdrawn his protection, note that God acts by withdrawing His protection Satan will do his evil deeds more powerfully than ever before.

On the other hand God will act out his own wrath through the plagues and by His wrath through His Strange Act.

I may not understand how that may work, but God has given us enough from history and His Word to know it will be His own wrath.

I agree extremes are dangerous at both ends and we see that often enough from the image of God in the OT from the image of God in the NT. These extremes are dangerous for the soul.

God is both merciful and just. He will judge the world by His righteousness, but He will also be merciful in His judgment.

From Psalms I find these words to be wise:

89:13 Thou hast a mighty arm: strong is thy hand, and high is thy right hand.
89:14 Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.
89:15 Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O LORD, in the light of thy countenance.

we get a very clear picture from chapters 39-41 if you havent reviewed those lately. then there are bits and pieces scattered here and there that ive been integrating into those chapters in their rightful places. that really helps to bring out overlooked points.

ohhh, i hear that so often. i read the ot over and over and over systematicallyand that kind of "God" in the "ot" was absolutely destroyed in my mind. i believe that asking Him to cleanse me of all "traditions" helped immensely in seeing what was really there, compared to what we seem to read there.