The destruction of the wicked is all over the bible, from genesis to revelation. And on that day of judgement, everything that could be done to save everyone has already been done. There is nothing in the bible to indicate that God at that point shows secound thoughts, Jesus said that the angles will gather together that which is to be burned. It appears to be a very purposefull clensing of all that befouls the universe.

Am I wrong in any of this?

/Thomas

I never understood the doctrine of making God to be cuddly and cute. He is the Soverign Almighty God, and he will come for His people, and destroy the wicked. He will not accidentally sort of burn them up. He is coming to judge, and to wipe out the unholy,filthy, and unrighteous.
God even says the following in His Word:

quote:

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Ezekiel 18:32
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

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God Bless,
Will

These points need to be addressed:

1) The judgement is not an arbitrary act of power of God.
2) The wicked reap that which they have sown.
3) God is the fountain of life. The wicked die because they choose to separate themselves from God.
4) The wicked die because they are out of so harmony with God that God's presence to them is a consuming fire.
5) The glory of God destroys the wicked.

Yes, God will destroy the wicked, but He will do so in harmony with what He has revealed in these clear statements. I have suggested a way (see previous post) which I think is in harmony with the above. If someone has what they think is a better theory, I would be happy to see it.

AH Ok I see now what you mean Tom. I do not mean that God will destroy the wicked because it is something He can;t wait to do. It is because The Hour of His judgment is come, and those that choose to serve a different master will find themselves either in the 2nd resurrection, or they will be destroyed at His coming. What do you think?
God Bless,
Will

Graham Maxwell pointed me to this article written in the 1940s by Lynn Harper Wood, who I believe does an excellent job in discribing this issue. I hope that you find it as big a blessing for this study as I have.
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SUFFERING THE GREAT REFINER
Who may abide the day of His coming? and who shall stand when He appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fuller's soap: and He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and He shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness. Malachi 3:2,3

While this text has primary reference to Christ's first advent, as shown in verse 1, it also refers to the time just before His second coming. At that time there will be just two kinds of material -- that which can be refined by fire and that which will be destroyed by it. As Paul says, "Other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver precious stones, wood hay, stubble; every man's work shall be manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of whit sort it is." 1 Cor 3: 11-13. That this was not a new idea to Paul in shown by Isaiah's statement, "Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burning?" Isa. 33:14. Now wood, hay or stubble will be consumed in a moment, but precious stones and metals are only purified by the fire.

How can one who has built of the wrong material have that material transmuted into precious metal? No one ever transmuted wood into gold, but by the power of re-creation Christ can and will make a sinner more precious than the "golden wedge of Ophir" ! (Isa 13:12.) If a life is nothing but combustible material camouflaged, this fire will reveal it. Therefore, in mercy God has sent us trial and suffering beforehand that we might learn to hate sin. Now is the day of re-creation. There will come a day, very soon, when it will be everlastingly too late. Will you not open your heart to Him as never before?-- Lynn H. Wood, One-time Jasrow Fellow of the American School of Oriental Research, Jerusalem: Mysteries Unveiled copyright 1944 review and Herald Publishing Association, Voice of Prophecy edition, pg. 283-284.

Thanks Kevin. Very nice.

Isaiah answers his own question in the Isa. 33:14 quote about who can dwell with the everlasting burnings. He says the wicked can.

An important point for us to understand, I think, is that God does not change. He is who He always has been. What changes is that God will no longer continue the probationary period in which we now live, which is what prevents the present destruction of the wicked. That is, it is only because God is actively taking steps to preserve the wicked that they are not presently destroyed. His "strange work" is to discontinue their probation.

I'm sorry for this long post, but this is a very important topic to me, and colors my view of the cross, redemption, 1844, the Sabbath the writings of Mrs. White, etc.
First of all, yes, the Bible teaches that we have a heaven to gain and a hell to shun. And yes, despite all our tap-dancing over the text, the Bible does teach an eternal burning hell.

But in the Old Testament, it says that God is the fire. Fire symbolizes God's love that either changes our lives, or destroys us if we refuse it's power. Deuteronomy 4:24 and 9:3 says that God is a consuming fire. Isaiah 33 says that the righteous will live forever in the eternal fire while the lost are not able to live in the eternal fire. Isaiah 10 says "...under his glory a burning shall be kindled
Like the burning of fire.
The light of Israel will become a fire!
And his Holy One a flame!
And it will burn and devour
His thorns and briers in one day"
Although there are exceptions, for the most part in the Old Testament God Judgment over and over again is allowing the natural results of people's choice.

In the ancient Baal myth, Baal dies, rises after 3 days and destroys his enemy through power and force. The Bible writers copied from writings around them including the Baal myth. But what is interesting is when the Bible writers get to this part of the story, they stop copying. Yes, Yahweh, like Baal appears as a mighty warrior to lead out in war, but instead of actually having the battle as in the Baal myths, Yahweh's presence scares the enemy to death.

In his book, "James and the Children" Eli Siegel discusses the Henry James' book "The Turn of the Screw." It is an excellent book, but I have to admit I have not read it in about 20 years, so I hope I am fair to it in this reference here. Siegel argues that the death of the children at the end of the story was how they were battling an indecisiveness between being good or evil.

In John 3: 18-20 Jesus says that the lost are lost because they are afraid to come to the light for fear that they would be exposed. They are afraid that God is going to get them for their sins, so they pull back. Jesus continues by pointing out that for those who despite the fear, do come to the light, instead of finding a God who is going to expose their sins, they instead find that their lives change. Jesus' love is not some sticky sweet sentimentalism. It is a power that always encourages the best in us. It transforms us. But if someone does not want the best in them to be developed, they can feel quite uncomfortable in Jesus' presence. They see that he knows all about them. We see our sinfulness in response to his purity. The saved cast their crowns and sing "Worthy, worthy, worthy is the lamb who was slain and lives again" but the lost have a fear that God's grace is not sufficient for them and that therefore God is going to get them. The woman in John 4 roasted in hell fire as she found someone who knew all about her but offered her living water.

The Psalmist says about God's character "More to be desired are they then gold, yea then much fine gold, sweeter also then honey, and the honey comb."

Daniel, in describing Satan, says that he is not like "The one beloved of women" (an Old Testament name for Christ that we don't use too often). Another more common phrase seen as an Old Testament name for Jesus is "The Desire of All nations." The Angel announces Jesus' birth as news of great joy for "ALL PEOPLE" Notice, it did not say "The honest in heart" nor "the saved" but ALL PEOPLE!!! Ellen White titled her biography of Jesus "The Desire of Ages" (How many of us have ever meditated about this sentence? What was Mrs. White saying here?) Our deepest desire is to be like and with Jesus.

When Jesus cleaned the temple, divinity flashed through humanity and people ran in two different directions. The money changers ran away from him, and children and the poor ran TOWARDS him. What was it about Jesus' anger that would make children run to him when he was angry? How many children want to run to an angry man with a whip? Should not the children have run away from him like the money changers? But the children did not fear the whip, because it was held by Jesus!!!

In Revelation John has the wicked running to the rocks saying fall on us and hide us from the wrath of the lamb. John is being ironic in his statement. How scary is a lamb? Do you expect to pick up the New York Times tomorrow and read the headlines "Lamb escapes from Central Park Zoo: Terrorizes City" John says that the sinners have no more need to be afraid of Jesus than they need to be afraid of a lamb. Yet it becomes their worst terror.

Ellen White builds on John's message. She has us seeing Jesus in all his majesty and power and out of terror we ask "Who shall be able to stand?" and the angels stop their singing and a moment of horrible silence. Then Jesus says "My grace is sufficient for you" at these words we find two results. The saved think "Of course his grace is sufficient for us!" and sing out "This is my God, we have waited for him and he will save us" and it will be a moment of joy! But others believe that Jesus is lying, that his grace is not sufficient for them, and so they go running to the rocks to fall on them and hide them from the wrath of the lamb.

We find similar ideas in the writings of William Tyndale and C. S. Lewis, especially in "The Magician's Nephew." In one passage of this great book Uncle Albert is miserable. Aslan is asked to say something comforting to Uncle Albert, but Aslan sadly replies that he can't because no matter what he said, Uncle Albert would only hear a ferocious lion roaring. In "The Last Battle" as the characters enter into a stable some found it to be a beautiful place with wonderful food, but the dwarfs only saw a smelly stable with only straw to eat.

Mrs. White has other statements also. Some directly; such as "The glory of Him who is love will consume the wicked" and another where she describes that while the presence of God being an ark of safety to the believers, it is a consuming fire to the lost. As well as indirect statements, such as how she had both Peter and Judas seeing the look of Jesus face, and how that look lead one to repentance and the other to suicide. She has numerous statements where she focuses on one acts with two results. A master chapter in Mrs. White's theology is the chapter "It is Finished" in the Desire of Ages.

Go through the Bible concordances and indexes to the writings of Ellen White and look up the fire and consuming fire quotes.

I believe that Mrs. White had made a oneness out of Calvinism and Arminianism. She has Calvin's irresistible grace, but also freedom of choice. Grace is so irresistible that you can't exist if you don't surrender to it.

The traditional view of hell has the lost facing the judgment standing nervously and being told that they can either go into heaven, where they breath a sigh of releaf. Others are told that they have to go to hell where they are sent kicking and screaming saying "No, no, no!" and Jesus saying "You would not say that you accepted me in life, it's too late for you to say you're willing to accept me now, I don't care how much you beg forgiveness and ask me into your life now."

What the Bible and Mrs. White actually teach about what happens at the end is simply God shows up in person, in all God's beauty. We are all drawn to this beauty. For those of us who have responded to the pleadings of the Holy Spirit in life here, we will continue to yield, and find being with God to be heaven. Who cares about the golden streets, just to be with Jesus, our loved ones, and so many notables from history.

But those who have made a habit of rejecting the pleadings and drawing of the Holy Spirit, will continue to resist. They see Jesus in full beauty and want to come, but they won't. They desire Jesus, but refuse to give up their selfishness. They see how sinful they are, and are afraid that God is going to get them for their sins.

These are people who either want to be saved by their own works, or else saved in their present sins, they don't want to be saved by Jesus' love. They thus surround the city trying to conquer it by force, trying to get heaven on their own terms, but realize it is useless. They fully see the issues of the Great Controversy and the role they played. They see that they are indeed wrong and become atoned in the sense that they finally understand that God is indeed right, but they continue to refuse to allow themselves to submit to God's authority. In contrast to the beauty of Jesus and in the panoramic overview they are shown their sinfulness from God’s perspective and seeing the true ugliness of sin compared to the beauty of Jesus they loath their sinfulness and no longer want to live that way, but refuse to come for healing and forgiveness, and would rather die than allow Jesus to heal them.

And they continue to struggle with their longing to just fall on their knees and accept Christ, and their lifelong fighting against this desire. They want to, but they won’t. Jesus is their deepest desire, but they are afraid of him. They are attracted to the Desire of Ages, but they have destroyed their capacity to choose, and are slaves to their feelings of fear.

This struggle becomes intense. Finally they try to compromise, they go on their knees and confess that Jesus is right and that Jesus is Lord, but they refuse to go any farther. And this conflict between wanting to accept Christ, and their developing a character of refusing that desire finally just quite literally tears them apart.

Those who have not fought the pleadings of the Holy Spirit as hard as others are consumed quickly. Others, who have been actively fighting and closing their minds and hardening their hearts will characteristically keep trying to justify themselves, and it will be longer for them to go through this struggle. Thus some burn longer than others. Satan, who has resisted Grace the most, who had been able to stand in the presence of God before will deal with this situation the longest, but finally he too will be destroyed by being split between his desire to ask forgiveness, yet his continued refusal to.

As Mrs. White says "The Glory of Him that is Love will consume the wicked."

Hell is not a place, but a response to a person. God does one act. God shows up in person. No more veiling and only letting Moses see his back, but we see God face to face. The glory that shown from the face of Moses so that he needed to wear a vale will be so much more intense when every human sees God’s face. God is again fully visible in all beauty and awe. For some it becomes heaven and eternal life, for others it becomes hell and their destruction. When Jesus was on earth there were those incredibly attracted to him. We read in the gospels about those who were attracted but left when he did not fit their picture of what they wanted the Messiah to be like. Is Jesus the Messiah we are looking for or will we respond as others who long ago claimed to be looking for the Messiah?

Now some see this aspect of the Bible and Mrs. White and have construed it to God does not kill. They see half the truth, but are leaving out the other half of the truth. The supporters of the forensic view have the other half of the truth. The God does not kill camp has God too passive. The truth is a oneness of active and passive. It is the presence of God that is the consuming fire! The lake of fire is love, glory, character, grace and personal presence of Jesus. Now if God was not going to kill, he has 3 choices. One is simply to let the first death be it. Second, he could, as he is doing now, only reveal enough of God’s self to keep us alive and let us end up destroying ourselves. Or third, to keep us from destroying our selves he would have to put each sinner on their own planet, but kept alone to keep them from harming others. But then God would be no more than a divine warden. God's strange act is putting those who have rejected him in his presence. For thousands of years he has veiled himself from us. Even Moses was only able to only see the back of God. If it was some kind of imposed legal issue, Moses should have been able to see God's face instead of only God’s back. God still needed to work with Moses to heal him to a point where he could see God face to face.

So God just does his one act, treats everyone the same, and allow the two different results to happen, as he cries "Why or why will ye die?" "How can I give you up? How can I let you go?" "What more can I do?"

God does not treat Abraham any different from he does Judas. God does not treat Gabriel any different from he treats Satan. When theologians argue for the idea of Universalism, that everyone will be saved, it is half the truth. As far as God is concerned God treats us all the same. It is our attitude of wanting to be with God or to flee from the only source of life that makes the difference. So when God hears someone teaching Universalism, he wipes a tear from his eye saying "I wish, but there are people who won’t let me."

The people who are concerned about this view seem to worry that if that is they think that God is being soft on sin if he does not inflect pain. They do not realize the beauty of Jesus. He is our deepest desire. The horror of hell is loosing Jesus! Loosing Jesus is not God tucking the sinners into bed and kissing them "Good night" as they drift off into a sweet sleep. Hell is horrible, but it is an emotional hell. We see a little bit of the horrors of hell when we loose a loved one, or are ripped apart from loved ones by distance, or family problems, or a break up. The sinner, seeing Jesus in all his beauty, is so incredibly attracted to him, yet refuse to repent. They even try to get in by force, but they want to be saved either by their own works or in their present sins. They refuse to come to Jesus for salvation. They want to, but they won’t. Their heart is being worked on by irresistible grace, but they have developed an irreversible habit of resisting grace. It is the worst situation a person can experience.

Let's imagine a guy who hates doctors. He not only refuses to go to doctors, but publicly tells his disdain for them. Publicly humiliates the doctor. Tells how he never had gone to the doctor and never will. Then have this guy get an illness that if fatal if untreated, but he is absolutely too proud to break down and go to the doctor. He fears that the doctor would taunt him. He opposed doctors so much that it would be too humiliating for him to come, so he ends up dying. The emotional conflict someone like that could face would be incredible.

Now greatly multiply this and make it real and you have the situation of the lost. The conflict of wanting to be with Jesus yet refusing is so intense that for God to add anything to this would make as much of an impact as throwing a match on a ragging forest fire. Remember, when Jesus died on the cross the pain of being separated from his Father was so intense that he barely felt the pain of the cross. Mrs. White is making a message in that line that speaks volumes.

This also vindicates God's law, the law of self sacrificing love and that salvation is not based on works but only a righteousness by faith contact with the only source of life.

The traditional view of hell, where God does two sepperat things to you, has raised the questions about how to get God to do the good things to me? And Salvation ends up being based on how to get God to do the good thing to me and not the bad thing. This has lead to ideas such as: Maybe I can do good works and God will let me into heaven. Maybe I can pay for indulgences and let the leader of the church who holds the key to heaven to let me in. Maybe I can spend my life in the Mafia but perform the church rites where the leader of the church who holds the keys to heaven will let me in. Or a bit closer to us Protestants; I can just let Jesus' works be in place of my works and if I say the correct things about Jesus God would have to let me in. (Current critics of the Seventh-day Adventist church are critizising Sabbath keeping saying that if you keep the Sabbath you are doing some of your own works instead of trusting in Jesus' works, with the implication that you have to hide behind Jesus' works or else God's gona get you). They still end up being focused on works and finding a way for works to save them. Whether our works or looking for someone else's works, works are still works.

All these attempts at works falls when they see Jesus. The gates of heaven are open, but unless they allow the drawing power of the character of Jesus to draw them closer to him, they will pull away. And works of those who are saved are not the basis for salvation. The only basis is how we are responding to the love of Jesus. If I want to spend time with him on Sabbath, it does not my own works that God is going to see and judge as not good enough and therefore throw me out of heaven as I did not hide so well while trying to sneek into heaven behind Jesus. Jesus had an unbroken righteousness by faith relationship with the Father and the Holy Spirit, and gives us his relationship to connect us to the only source of life. This is the only way in.


All stand before God without excuse. They can not blame not having missionaries or good missionaries, as the Holy Spirit works with all. Mission work can help encourage some to start a walk with Jesus, and deepen the relationship of others, but all in all faiths and even non-faiths are making choices about what to do with the work of the Holy Spirit on the heart. People from all cultures and faiths will find themselves either running towards Jesus or running away from him.


Jesus wanted to be with the Father and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit and the Father wanted to be with Jesus. They wanted to be together, but refused, not for the same reasons that the wicked refuse at the end of time, but they refused out of love for us. they knew that if they did not allow sin to separate them from each other, it would have eternally separated us from them and destroyed the whole universe.

Had Jesus given up bearing sin, Moses, Enoch and Elijah would not be called before a divine firing squad, but the entire universe would have given up it's righteousness by faith relationship with God and the entire universe would have been destroyed.

The cross shows us what sin would do to us if Jesus did not bear it in our place. The resurrection shows that if we want to be with God all the sins of the world cannot keep us apart!!!

As for the fire burning forever? How long will God's love last? Will God's love ever burn out? I have no problem with the eternal fire texts knowing that the Old Testament sees the fire as symbolic for God's love and beautiful character and personally being with him forever and ever! The Eternal Fire of Glory!

Excellent posts Tom!

Thanks for the long post Kevin. Lots of good stuff.

Here's a text you could add to your list:

With the merciful You will show Yourself merciful;
With a blameless man You will show Yourself blameless;
With the pure You will show Yourself pure;
And with the devious You will show Yourself shrewd. (Ps. 18:25, 26)

We see God through the filtering lens of our own character.

.

[ January 01, 2005, 08:25 AM: Message edited by: Doug Meister ]