And [Saul] enquired not of the LORD: therefore [God] slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.

The idea that we must interpret the passages where it says God killed or destroyed human beings in light of natural law or some other means requires us to ignore the most obvious meaning of scripture. If we cannot take God at His word, then we are in big trouble. "I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." Isa 45:7.

All throughout the Bible whenever the enemies of God were defeated or destroyed, the faithful always gave God the glory. They never once praised natural law or fate or bad luck. At the end of time, the holy angels praise God for destroying the unsaved in the plagues, and then again in the lake of fire. They do not praise natural law or fate or bad luck.

Why are we so afraid of giving God the glory for defeating sin and sinners? Why can't we be like the holy angels who are anxious to destroy sin and sinners in the lake of fire? Yes, they are more willing that everyone be saved, but for those who reject so great a salvation, they deserve to be punished and destroyed.

Whether God causes or permits death and destruction He is, nonetheless, ultimately responsible. Which is actually good news. I shudder to think that anyone or anything else, other than God, is in control. If it were up to natural law or sin or death or evil doers to eliminate sin and sinners in the lake of fire, well, we cannot be totally sure they will get it right, they are, after all, unholy and imperfect.

Whoever is ultimately responsibile for the death and destruction of sin and sinners in the lake of fire is the real hero in the great controversy. If God is not the real hero, then how can we be sure affliction shall not arise a second time? But if God is the real hero, and not natural law or anything or anyone else, then we can rest assured that sin will never rear its ugly head again.

Hi Mike, yes, you are right, but you seem to present this in what appears to be a critical tone as if this truth is not being presented, and that you were trying to correct it. Therefore I would like to invite you to re-read, maybe a bit slower than the last time, what has been written. The Natural and Supernatural work together, and yes it was indeed What God does.

The issue is whether God does two sepperat acts, the one being something nice to those who are saved, and something not so nice (such as the same type of fire that we get if we light a match that produces the same type of pain as if we were to put our hand on a hot stove)to the lost: Or does God do one act to both the saved and lost, but get two different results?

Either way, God is ACTIVE, God is not sitting around twiddling his thumbs, but the critics keep wanting to picture the latter as our view. That is nonsence.

Sorry about the negative overtones. I happen to know that not everybody agrees that God is actively involved in punsihing and destroying sin and sinners in the lake of fire. You asked if the same act produces different results among the saved and the lost. That depends on the conditions set forth by God. In the Flood, the conditions were to abide and hide in the Ark. Those who didn't comply with the conditions experienced radically different results.

In the resurrection the cause and effect results are also radically different. The conditions for being a part of the first resurrection are - believe on Jesus and behave like Jesus. The same applies to those who are alive when Jesus arrives in the clouds of glory. But in the second resurrection the results of the lake of fire apply only to sin and sinners.

I was feeling I came on too harsh in my earlier post so came back to soften it, but since you all read read it I'll leave it as it is and appologise if I came on too strong.

Thank you Mike, but could I still encourage you to read where I put a post by Lynn Wood (I later put a post about Lynn Wood, not that one, although it is good to know, but the one where I copied what he wrote) and my posts, I know that some are long, but please take the time to give them a good read.

Kevin, I'm sorry, but I cannot agree with your premise that the glory of God's character is the fire that destroys sin and sinners. It would require me to reject the obvious meaning of God's word in the Bible and the SOP. But I do appreciate your attempts to vindicate the character of God. Apparently there are people who fear God for all the wrong reasons.

I understand this view to BE THE MEANING in scripture and Spirit of Prophecy.

And I am not alone in reaching this conclusion. Responcible Adventists from different times in our church history, and different parts of the world, often without contact with others who held this view have come to these conclusions.

I know that we are not to look to degrees as a final word, but look at what a careful scholar Lynn Wood was, and although I have not seen just what doctrines are being talked about, friends and relatives of Ellen White, such as W. W. Prescott and I believe Willie White (although I don't remember for sure) befriended Wood and found "many points in agreement" (One ready source is Valentine's book "The Shaping of Adventism" a biography of W. W. Prescott). When the church leadership was debating whether to give up the 2300 days, it was Lynn Wood's scholarship that showed that 457 BC was indeed the year for the decree and the start of the 2300 days. He has good creditentials.

Also, Daniel Dudah, living in the Soviet Union cut off from the rest of the church, an Adventist getting permission from the government to go to a Luthean Seminary, and while there decided to compare what they were teaching with what Mrs. White taught, and he came to this view of hell. Johathan Gallager in England who had only been exposed to what the Evangelists teach, who studying Mrs. White came to this view and thought he was the first one to discover this, only later to learn that it had a strong history in our church.

That this view of hell is what the Bible and Mrs. White really believed was taugh in our colleges and even the Seminary since at least the 1920s (and while I have not seen proof yet, there are hints that it was taught even before the 1920s) until recent years. This is the view held by many of the contributers of the SDA Bible Commentary

Our ministeral students were told that what evangelists teach was only a begining view for those ignorant of Mrs. White and ignorant as to what the Bible taugh about hell, that it was a good first step, so they needed to know how to give the evangelistic sermon, but that it was only a first step towards the truth. I've talked to some older retired ministers who said that while they were convinced from college that this is the correct view of hell, that in Evangelistic meetings and Bible Studies, they got use to and therefore more comfortable with teaching the first step, but was not sure how to explain deeper from there.

Yes, we need to continue to study, just like in issues such as the ordination of women we need to be willing to study, to present our views, to listen to others views and other's cretiques of our views. But please remember that while I admit, it is not that clear from a superficial reading, that I have become convinced that this view is indeed THE view Mrs. White and the Bible teach. I've come upon many other responsible people who have reached the same conclusion. Therefore I do not see the view of hell I'm rejceting as "obvious". I am open to listen to arguments to show where I and the others are wrong in our conclusions, but don't think that we do not see this as Mrs. White's view, because we honestly do.

[ November 27, 2004, 09:04 PM: Message edited by: Kevin H ]

I just want to come back and say that I do not mean to give an impression that this view has been taught universally in our colleges, because that I don't know. What I do know is that it has been an acceptable understanding of Mrs. White over decades, and I was taught this from different professors when I was in college, without anyone who (at least not publicly) dissagreed.

I first learned about this view in a joke about the college Bible department. I though it was obvious heresy. But after hearing that joke, I started to notice things in the Bible and Mrs. White, even before I was in a class that taught the topic, but by the time the professors got to it, I had read myself into it from Mrs. White and the Bible.

Who destroys the sinners?
God Bless,
Will

Kevin, how do you explain the following passages:

EW 289, 290
My attention was again directed to the earth. The wicked had been destroyed, and their dead bodies were lying upon its surface. The wrath of God in the seven last plagues had been visited upon the inhabitants of the earth, causing them to gnaw their tongues from pain and to curse God. The false shepherds had been the signal objects of Jehovah's wrath. Their eyes had consumed away in their holes, and their tongues in their mouths, while they stood upon their feet. After the saints had been delivered by the voice of God, the wicked multitude turned their rage upon one another. The earth seemed to be deluged with blood, and dead bodies were from one end of it to the other. {EW 289.3}

EW 294, 295
Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294.2}

GC 614
A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}