listen to what the pioneers wrote:

"A Word to the Little Flock" by James and Ellen White and Joseph Bates.

Page 2


Sorry, I can't bring it over from my file...but it would be worth searching for. Too much to type.

Here are some links to articles Sister White wrote on the covenants:

The Covenants
Manuscript Releases Volume One, pages 104-122

http://www.egwtext.whiteestate.org/cgi-bin/egw2html?C=135899694&K=215426112910404548&M=P

NOTE: click on "Next Paragraph" to read entire article.

The Two Covenants
RH October 17, 1907, paragraphs 1-12

http://www.egwtext.whiteestate.org/cgi-bin/egw2html?C=104946285&K=220032112910404972

And here's a link to Word to the Little Flock (but it begins on page 11 goes thru page 20):

http://www.egwtext.whiteestate.org/cgi-bin/egw2html?C=69779466&K=220330112910406706

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[ January 01, 2005, 08:18 AM: Message edited by: Doug Meister ]

Thanks Doug,

Didn't work. I originally scanned it into my Photo House then placed it in my "documents" page by page and can't get it from either source. I will have to take time to type it into the word processor, then i can use it. It is a good read on this subject. Thanks for the try. I am really one of the computer "dummies".

trying again from an online source....

The Seven Last Plagues.

"And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God." Rev. 15:1.

For more than one year, it has been my settled faith, that the seven last plagues were all in the future, and that they were all to be poured out before the first resurrection.

It may not be my duty to attempt to point out each plague separately, but only give some of my reasons for believing that they are yet to be poured out, prior to the second advent. By the light of the brightly shining lamp, (the bible) we can see the events of our past experience distinctly; while future events may not be seen in their order so clearly.

If it be true that the plagues are yet to be poured out upon the earth before the resurrection and change of the saints, has not the time fully come for us to see the light in relation to them, that we may better see, and feel the force of Christ's words? Watch ye, therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. Luke 21:36.

From the last clause of Rev. 15:1, "for in them is filled up the wrath of God," it seems clear that all the wrath of God to be poured out on the living wicked, is contained in the plagues. The vials of wrath will certainly be poured out, in the day of the wrath of God, and of the Lamb.

Jesus is clearly represented in the bible, in his different characters, offices, and works. At the crucifixion he was the meek, slain lamb.

[2]

From the ascension, to the shutting of the door, Oct. 1844, Jesus stood with wide-spread arms of love, and mercy; ready to receive, and plead the cause of every sinner, who would come to God by him.

On the 10th day of the 7th month, 1844, he passed into the Holy of Holies, where he has since been a merciful "high priest over the house of God." But when his priestly work is finished there, he is to lay off his priestly attire, and put on his most kingly robes, to execute his judgment on the living wicked. Now where shall we look for the day of wrath, in which will be poured out the vials of wrath? Not to the crucifixion, nor while Jesus is fulfilling his Priesthood in the Heavenly Sanctuary. But, when he lays off his priestly attire, and puts on the "garments of vengeance" to "repay fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies;" then the day of his wrath will have fully come. As the "wrath of God" on the living wicked is "filled up" in the plagues, and as the day of wrath is future, it follows that the plagues are all future. I think the following is a prophesy which has been fulfilling since Oct. 1844.

"And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter.

Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey; and the Lord saw it, and it ispleased him that there was no judgment.

"And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor." Isaiah 59:14, 15, 16.

I think that the next two verses, which speak of our Lord's putting on the "garments of vengeance for clothing," to "repay fury to his adversaries," point to the wrath of God in the seven last plagues. God has shown this day of wrath, in prophetic vision, to some of his servants by different symbols. Ezekiel saw it in the men with "slaughter-weapons," slaying "utterly, old and young." Eze. 9:5,6. John saw it in the "seven last plagues;" while Esdras saw it in the famine, pestilence, and the sword. The Bible contains many descriptions of this soon expected day of wrath.

"A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee" see Ps. 91:5-10.

"Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt;" see Isa. 13:6-11.

"And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem (the saints): Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongues shall consume away in their mouth." Zech. 14:12.

"Alas for the day! For the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come."

"The seed is rotted under their clods, the garners are laid desolate, the barns are broken down, for the corn is withered." see Joel 1:15-18; Jer. 30:23,24; Dan. 12:1; Hab. 3:12,13; Zeph. 1:17,18; 2nd Esdras, 15:10-13. I am quite sure that our Savior referred to the same, when he spake of "distress of nations, with perplexity"; "Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth." Luke, 21:26,27. In the 36th verse we are exhorted to constant watchfulness and prayer, that we "may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." at his appearing.

[3]

This makes it sure, that the trouble comes before the second advent; for the saints are to escape it, before they "stand before the Son of man." At the second appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, the living wicked, who are not swept off by the plagues, are to be destroyed by the "brightness of his coming." 2Thess. 2:8.

This is positive proof that the plagues come before, and not after the advent; for the wicked will not suffer by the plagues, after they are destroyed by the burning glory of his coming.

The plagues of Egypt, and the deliverance of ancient Israel from bondage, clearly shadow forth the seven last plagues, and the deliverance of the saints.

"I will bring them (the saints) with a mighty hand and a stretched-out arm, and smite Egypt with plagues AS BEFORE," etc. 2Esdras 15:11. "Zion shall be redeemed with judgment," etc. Isa 1:27, see Eze. 20:33-38. The plagues were poured out on Egypt just before, and at the deliverance of Israel; so we may expect the last plagues on the wicked, just before and at the deliverance of the saints.


HOORAY! IT WORKED.

Note: if questions arise from this quote,, it is covered in the apendex of this little pamphlet.....everyone should have and read this book, is my thoughts.

Considering the drastic nature and results of the seven last plagues, the wrath of God, what can be deduced concerning the far more drastic nature and results of the lake of fire? Compared to the lake of fire the plagues seem more like a spanking. And yet, even the wrath of God, in the lake of fire, is love. "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten." Rev 3:19. "All they that hate me love death." Prov 8:36. Here is a graphic description of the lake of fire:

Revelation
14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Mike, did you notice the post of November 28, 2004 02:29 PM? In it are many texts which show that the wrath of God is His withdrawl, causing those who reject God to suffer the consequences of their choice. From the Spirit of Prophesy we have this:

"This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe." DA 764

Why choose a symbolic text which makes God look bad over scores of other texts, explaing what God's wrath is, and a non-symbolic passage from the Spirit of Prophesy, which makes God look good?

Note from the DA 764 text:
1) The destruction of the wicked is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God.
2) The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown.
3) God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life.
4) All they that hate Christ love death.
5) By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire.
6) The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
7) At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this.
8) Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin.

I don't see how she could have written this any more clearly. If God had allowed Satan to reap the full result of sin (which is what? God destroying them by throwing a ball of fire at them from heaven?) the angels would not have understood that their destruction was due to sin. They would have thought that God was doing it.

In order to prevent this misunderstanding, God has prolonged things so that it could be seen that it was sin, and not God, that caused their destruction. This is why God did not immediately allow them to suffer the consequences of their sin.

So after all this, do we still not understand? After all these millenia, and the demonstration of Jesus Christ, who suffered the second death and showed to the world what it was (did God destroy Christ by throwing a ball of fire at Him from heaven?) do will still think that God is responsible for the death of the wicked?

Well I suppose if you think God is responsible for sin, it's not a large step to think He's responsible for death too.

Tom, I appreciate your attempts to represent God as He really is - a loving Father. I am more inclined to leave it at that, because to argue in favor of the wrath of God makes it seem as if I believe God is unloving. But the truth is I believe God is very loving, the ultimate epitome of love. So, I hesitate to defend the wrath of God, because I’m afraid of misrepresenting Him.

Yes, I am fully aware of the many places where Sister White says the glory of God’s countenance is what consumes the wicked when Jesus returns, and in the lake of fire at the end of time. I do not doubt this inspired insight. It is the truth. But unlike you, I do not believe her other insights regarding the seven last plagues and the fire that rains down upon the wicked are symbolic of God’s glory. It is obvious to me that both are true, that both play a part in the punishment and destruction of the wicked.

The law of sin and death, of life and death, of blessing and cursing, is no arbitrary law, nor is it a natural law. Whether we live or die, that is, whether we live eternally or die eternally, is not left to natural law. God is the author of eternal life and eternal death, since it is He who decides whether to resurrect us or not, whether to give us access to eat the fruit of the tree of life or not.

There is nothing natural about the second death because there is nothing natural about the second resurrection. Only God can destroy the wicked in hell. “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” Mat 10:28.

Deuteronomy
30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

John
3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Romans
8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.

2 Timothy
1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

1 John
3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not [his] brother abideth in death.
5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

I've never used the term "natural law" to refer to the second death. The law of sin and death is simply that the soul that sins shall die.

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." (Ezek. 18:20).

God doesn't tell us, "Don't sin or I'll kill you." but "Don't sin or you'll die."


"But unlike you, I do not believe her other insights regarding the seven last plagues and the fire that rains down upon the wicked are symbolic of God’s glory. It is obvious to me that both are true, that both play a part in the punishment and destruction of the wicked."

If you take account what she wrote:

quote:

---

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

---

I think it is clearly seen that it is not a case of "both" but one and the same process that is being described. "God's very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them." Isn't this enough? Or are they not dead enough if it's only His glory that kills them?

I've not seen anywhere where you have dealt with the issues raised by EGW in DA 764. She doesn't merely explain what happens, but why. It's all tied up with winning the Great Controversy, which cannot be accomplished by force, but by love and truth.

She explains that had God allowed them to suffer the consequenced of sin early on, those watching would not have understood. Did she mean be that that if God had killed them by burning them with fire from heaven the watching angels wouldn't have understood? Or that if He had allowed them to suffer the consequences of their sin, which is death, they wouldn't have understood.

Christ experienced the second death, but there was no fire from heaven sent to destroy Him. But there was the consuming fire of God in contact with sin: "My God, my God, Why hast thou forsaken Me?" "My heart melts like wax."

Sin cannot abide in the presence of God. There's no need for Him to do something other than simply be Himself in order to destroy sin. Sin is separation from God and apart from God noone can live.

Tom, it looks like we are gridlocked. Does anybody else watching this thread believe the lake of fire symbolizes the glory of God, the brightness of His countenance? Or, am I the only one who believes it is literal fire?