Tom is expressing my thoughts nicely. I agree with his assessment. My question was designed to find out why you addressed James in the manner you did.

OK, everybody, before we continue with this, better I clarify some things first, otherwise some of us would be judge unhonestly.

1st is that my question/questions has no relation to each other.

I made this topic "I have some question" because indeed I have some questions but has no relation to each other, I do not want to make each question one topic.

Thus, about "kuriake hemera" I asked, because some one from other church has defensed his view that Sabbath is no longer valid and that Sunday now is the day of the Lord. And when he brought up "kuriake hemera" I got a bit confuse, because, i never hear this.

I can counter all his defense/counter defense using Roman, Galatian, Ephesians, Philipi and others, but when it came to Rev. 1:10, I could not counter it. Our discusion has been very hot and read by thousand of peoples and I got counter attack by many people who knew how to answer, as this discusion take place in one of Internet Christian forums, and the topic is Sabbath versus Sunday.

And there is more to ask, for there are some difficult replies from their side, as this discusion is between me and some M. Div or M.Th. or ministers. And I believe one of them has wrote thousand pages of Theology concerning all part of the bible. A very tough and smart person, and I really must guard my self with an exellent knowledges of our theology and doctrines.

Thank's God, I could counter him well and explained the truth of the Gospel of Christ, hopefully many could see the truth and be changed. Esspecially with the coming of mark Finley to Jakarta, I intent to give free invitation to the forum readers, who knoows, some soul might be attracted ny the Holy Spirit and could attend jakarta biggest evangelism in early September.

My 2nd question is personal, I asked support from my brothers and sisters here and advice but not judgment, to my situation regarding working on Sabbath.

But one thing, I didn't work on every Sabbath. Instead I always give a holiday to my labour on Sabbath. All projects must stopped and no labours on sabbath. But I only could do this to my own labours or anyone related to my preparation job.

But what I witness here was a labour done on Sabbath, where all institutions and people, some from Europe came to the site and do our job, every institution with their own job and responsibility, but we are all related to succesfully attend the job. I could not stopped them, and even me, could not stopped at this moment. Therefore, i asked, whenever we had prayed for the job would not fall on Sabbath, but if in fact it fell on Sabbath, what would we do?? In my case, i honestly say, that I could not abandon my job and deny my responsibility and obligation. If I still did it, I would be blamed for the delay, the cost that occur, penalties, and possible a separation with my client.

I compare my case to the desiples of God, when Jesus said, pray that your flight would not fall on Sabbath day. But what would happen when it still falls on Sabbath? Would they ready to die or flee? Tom has a good advice, Christ was not implying that we must stay to die, or that we could not run and safe our life. Could it be the same for my case??

But, Kland has taken some wrong conclusion connecting 1st question and 2nd question and made his own conclusion about me. it is sad! Instead of giving me a good advice, he was accusing me.

What most hurt me is that his idea the miracle was done by Satan. Therefore I must explain that I am enggaed in eveangelism since 1981, but there were many times, I deny God and serve the flesh, but he still loved me and shows his miracles even in the darkest time of my life.

Satan wants my death along time ago, but God had spared me.

In His love

there will be a time very soon when most all of us will have to face what you are now facing.

we dont know until then how we will react, but at this time it is for us to try and encourage you to trust in God. and no we are probably not doing it in the best way. God works miracles for us all the time and shows us His love in a myriad of ways, but, i dont believe, that that means, or is some kind of proof that, He is condoning our actions all the time.

i believe i was the one who equated the two "questions", tho, and not kland. i think, if you think about it, one seemed to lead into the other. whether or not i offer my apologies. it was my fault.

you say you have asked God to change the day, but that hasnt happened. instead of doing that, have you presented the problem to Him as you see it, and asked Him what you should do, or for Him to work it out?

So did I explain it fully?

I hope I have explained enough times what I was and wasn't accusing you of. There's no point in attempting any further.

I had been trying to say the two items were not connected. I see you have said so, too, that they were two separate questions. I hope you can understand that my only complaint was that you were connecting the two -- at least so it seemed to me and at least to Teresa. Thanks for clarifying that.

Can you help me out and show where you transitioned between the two questions? This would be most helpful to me in future discussions with you and others. I seemed to have missed it, but Teresa and I could have misled each other and overlooked where you ended the one and started the other question. It's very important in situations like this to clearly end the one and start the next or at least give clear indication there are two questions going on. Something like, "and I have another question not connected to the first", would be clear and bring all your readers with you.

Also, the first question came across as you personally believed the Greek phrase meant Sunday rather than what now appears you were presenting your position as views from the other forums. By me missing your transition to the second question, it very much so appeared the reason as you were taking the first view was to support your second question. It would have been good when you saw I was connecting the two questions, to have emphasized they were separate. But, I realize that would have been hard to do, since it did (or does?) not appear that you understood what my complaint was or that I had connected the two.

Do you think it is possible that the reason you were "counter attacked" on the other forum could be the same reason there was misunderstanding here? It seems as you were presenting here the arguments used against you in the other forum in order to know how to respond to them. That is a good way of learning, but when you find people misunderstanding you it would be good to clarify what you were doing or people will feel duped by you.

Also, (next question ), do you suppose that some of these "M. Div or M.Th. or ministers" could be taking the purpose and reason I was accusing you of? If that being true, could that be why they "counter attacked" you? Can we make this a learning experience, see how I mistakenly connected the two questions, but do you see an incentive for others to connect the two questions? Do you see that there is every reason for them to connect the two questions?

I personally know someone who decided to become a Catholic because they said the Sabbath was changed to Sunday. But mainly, the Sabbath was also a good day for their business.

How do you think would be a good way to get the people on the other forum to give the real reason for their difficult replies?

James, thank you for explaining things more clearly. Your command of the English language is excellent. However, it would help me if you would take the time to explain more fully why you felt working on the Sabbath was necessary and acceptable in the eyes of God. To be honest with you, James, the four reasons you stated above (reposted below) come short of what I would say are legitimate reasons for working on the Sabbath. Are there any other reasons?

God's blessing be with you brother. But just a word of caution - I myself have been attacked on this very board for pointing out that in my discussion with non-SDA Christians on other boards - I found the anti-SDA arguments to be similar to a few misguided arguments on this very board.

The response I got here (from one or two contributors) was to the effect that I should not even know how non-SDAs would respond to cogent Bible-based SDA positions because I should not be talking to them on those forums if the topics are such that the participants do not always agree in mindless lock-step uniformity.

So you may need to be careful in what you say and how you say it -- even here among mostly friends.

Having said that I will go back through your posts to see if I can help. I have many years of experience in doing just what you have stated above.

But I just now saw this thread and your posted - and wanted to give you a word of caution.

in Christ,

Bob

Sabbath - if you take it from Isaiah 58 or Mark 2:27-28.

However - there are "traditions" that have developed from supposed 2nd and 3rd century sources that apply it (in those later centuries) to Sunday.

So it depends on whether you want to rely on later century custom and tradition to answer the question - or the Word of God.

in Christ,

Bob

Isiah 58 calls the Sabbath the "Holy day of the Lord" - clearly even the septuagint would have that day as "belonging to the Lord".

I think the "Lord's Day" as Sabbath still holds.

in Christ,

Bob

I agree that they would have a compelling argument if they could find a place where a NT author said "Sunday is the Lord's Day".

However they will have to endure as those who do not have that much needed text to support their view.

in Christ,

Bob