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Re: I have some questions
[Re: James Saptenno]
#116091
07/16/09 02:52 PM
07/16/09 02:52 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2015
Senior Member
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 793
Georgia, USA
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While waiting for more inputs on the Lord's day, here is my next question: Matthew 24:20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath.
The question is: if the day comes thst they must take a flight, but it is Sabbath, what do you think they will do ar act?
When applied to us, when we pray that our flight don't fall on Sabbath, but in fact it still fall on Sabbath, what should we do?
In His love That is why God sends us the Holy Spirit to teach and guide us. Christ makes it a matter of prayer in Matt 24. We should do that as well and then on whatever day our flight is ordained - we should continue in prayer to know God's will. The same is true of the command in Matt 24 "or in the winter". in Christ, Bob
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Re: I have some questions
[Re: James Saptenno]
#116092
07/16/09 02:54 PM
07/16/09 02:54 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2024
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
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Therefore, my question is: what will do, even we had prayed but our flight falls on the Sabbath day?? Will we honor Sabbath and die, or will we take the flight?
Jesus said, pray for your flight would not fall on Sabbath, but if it happens? What then? Take the flight or stay?? i see this as a false dilemma question. it puts God in a very bad light. it portrays Him as telling us to pray that our flight be not on the sabbath nor in the winter, but when the time comes, saying, to the effect, "gotcha" as if He asked us to do something with no intentions on His part of fulfilling the request. but in this case, with this particular point we have a precedent. when the followers of Christ had to flee jerusalem, was their flight in the winter or on the sabbath? that alone tells us if He will be faithful and true, today, also.
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: I have some questions
[Re: James Saptenno]
#116093
07/16/09 02:56 PM
07/16/09 02:56 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2015
Senior Member
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 793
Georgia, USA
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So, how could we say that this vision he got happened on a day in the future. It must be happen on a literal day, if not Sabbath then Sunday.
If “te kureakê hêmera" really means in modern Greek “ a day that belongs to the Lord” which falls on Sunday, then, we must agree with non SDA’s that the Lord’s Day in Rev. 1:10 is really Sunday.
I could not agree with the idea that this day is somewhere in the future, it must be a literal day.
In His love
I agree -- John was speaking of a literal day -- the Sabbath. The Bible is it's own interpreter and John quoted heavily from the book of Isaiah in his letter "Revelation". He would have known that the Sabbath is "the Holy day of the Lord" Isaiah 58:13 "My Holy Day". There is no Bible doctrine in all of scripture that says "Whatever day you have a vision - becomes the Lord's day" and all of our non-SDA friends know it. They simply "hope" you will not notice. in Christ, Bob
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Re: I have some questions
[Re: James Saptenno]
#116094
07/16/09 03:02 PM
07/16/09 03:02 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2015
Senior Member
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 793
Georgia, USA
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Simple thinking kuriakê is Sunday or 1st day in Greek.
The wording " - tê kuriakê hêmera " has been used since the 2nd century that reffers to Sunday. Hi James, Where do you get that Kuriake means Sunday? I just check the Greek word and it means "1) belonging to the Lord 2) related to the Lord". There's only two instances of Kuriake in the NT. 1. the "Lord's day" in Rev 1, and the other 2. the "Lord's supper" in 1Cr 11:20. Can you provide your source that says that kuriake means Sunday? Also your source that "te kuriake hemera" saying that it has been used since the 2nd century and reffers to Sunday? For sure we can anticipate that history records floating around for us to see will say that it means Sunday as that's what they want us to believe. However, that's not what the Greek word means according to the concordance. Here are the days name in Greek: κυριακή KURIAKE δευτέρα DEUTERA τρίτη TRITE Τετάρτη TETARTE πέμπτη PEMPTE παρασκευή PARASKEUE Σάββατο SABBATO So, we knew that Sunday is Kuriake, and "te kureakê hêmera" in Rev. 1:10 - means the day of the Lord, which falls on Sunday. Why do we insist that it is not Sunday??? In His love Correction to your text above. kyriakos - "Belonging to the Lord" hemera - "day" I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet, egenomhn en pneumati en th| kuriakh| hmera|, kai hkousa opisw mou fwnhn megalhn wv salpiggov It is instructive that in the texts where aLL agree that week-day-one IS being identified (1Cor 16:2 and Acts 20:7) we do NOT see the term that you mentioned above for "Sunday". It shows that the later "traditions" in applying that term to week-day one are being confused with what the Bible actually says by those in your discussion. in Christ, Bob
Last edited by Bobryan; 07/16/09 03:14 PM.
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Re: I have some questions
[Re: James Saptenno]
#116095
07/16/09 03:20 PM
07/16/09 03:20 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2015
Senior Member
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 793
Georgia, USA
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You missed what I have said; I have prayed that the job might fall at other days and not at the Sabbath day, but it fell on Sabbath.
I have the responsibility and obligation to conclude the job, which onvolve may people from different institution and also expatriat from Europe who came all the way to supervise the job, which involve a cost of USD. 2.5 Million.
Do you think it is good for me, telling this people, sorry, this is my Sabbath day, the law could not allow me to work today, come back again on Sunday??
In this situation is God happy because I abandon my job and go to the church or I abandon my time to go to the church and do my job? For you, the answer is clear, because your view is solely based on perfect obedience to the law, even it would make many people angry, loosing time and money.
But the real son of God would not do that. His action is base4d on love without sacrificing other people. as long as he had tried all posible way to avoid working on Sabbath, but when it does happened the other way, with such responsibility as mine, then doing the job on Sabbath is what God would me do rather than abandon it and deny my responsibility and obligation. Serving people is serving God, when the job is succesfully done, people will agree that I'm with the Lord.
Do you think Jesus would do the same as mine? Please be careful with your answer, otherwise you become like a Pharisian.
In His love
God has made provision for what happens when your neighbor's Ox falls in a ditch on Sabbath saying that it is good to help for it is not only the animal's life and well-being but also your neighbor's business that is at risk by that tragic circumstance. You must go to God and seek His council for those cases. One or two others here may enjoy sitting in the seat of God for while -- but that has no weight with our God. I pray that God guides you as He knows best. in Christ, Bob
Last edited by Bobryan; 07/16/09 03:22 PM.
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Re: I have some questions
[Re: Elle]
#116102
07/16/09 04:19 PM
07/16/09 04:19 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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T:Even this seems a bit direct to me. I think my approach in a case like this would be to ask questions.
k:Too direct? I guess I felt he was reeling us in by going on about kuriake hemera all the while knowing what he was doing was wrong (at least he thought it was wrong according to his above quotes). I'm just speaking for myself. I would prefer to get an admission first, and then proceed, especially in the case of someone like James, whose native language is not English (no offense intended to James!) I've been astounded, on a number of occasions, where things I thought were so clearly stated that they couldn't be understood a different way were actually intended by the author to mean something quite different than what they appeared to say.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: I have some questions
[Re: Tom]
#116108
07/16/09 06:18 PM
07/16/09 06:18 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,512
Midland
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I'm just speaking for myself. I would prefer to get an admission first, and then proceed, especially in the case of someone like James, whose native language is not English (no offense intended to James!) I've been astounded, on a number of occasions, where things I thought were so clearly stated that they couldn't be understood a different way were actually intended by the author to mean something quite different than what they appeared to say. Good advice. I'll keep it in mind. I guess he seemed to have a fairly good mastery of the English language which I assumed meant the ideas, interactions, and implications were just as good. Obviously, I completely missed there were two separate unrelated questions. Though, it's not unreasonable a native English speaking person may have done the same thing.
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Re: I have some questions
[Re: kland]
#116123
07/17/09 02:52 AM
07/17/09 02:52 AM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Please, this is none of our business and it is between the Lord and James. Who are we to judge? What is this? Your this doesn't seem to be what my this is. As is obvious from your response, you did not understand my this. You have addressed things which I explicitly stated I was not addressing, nor judging James on, yet failed to address what I did address. I thought Teresa, in post #115989, clearly explained what I was saying if I was not clear enough myself. I see you, James, nor västergötland have considered what she asked. You missed what I have said; No. You have failed to see that has nothing to do with what I am talking about. I do not know enough details to judge you on what you are talking about, although your comments regarding it seem to indicate you are uncomfortable with it. But, that's between you and the Lord. Why have you responded to what I said I was not talking about, but did not respond to Teresa? But apparently does not know enough to remember that it is not his place to judge James or anyone else at all. Judge James about what? What is it I am judging James on? Besides from the points already made by Tom and Elle, I would say that the post Tom referred to would have best not been posted at all. Judging is what you claim to be doing in it and for all apparence it serves little further purpose.
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: I have some questions
[Re: vastergotland]
#116164
07/17/09 05:37 PM
07/17/09 05:37 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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James, hope the recent hotel bombings haven't affected you.
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Re: I have some questions
[Re: kland]
#116312
07/19/09 06:26 AM
07/19/09 06:26 AM
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OP
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
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Can you help me out and show where you transitioned between the two questions? This would be most helpful to me in future discussions with you and others. I seemed to have missed it, but Teresa and I could have misled each other and overlooked where you ended the one and started the other question. It's very important in situations like this to clearly end the one and start the next or at least give clear indication there are two questions going on. Something like, "and I have another question not connected to the first", would be clear and bring all your readers with you.
#115108 - 06/26/09 04:55 AM While waiting for more inputs on the Lord's day, here is my next question: Matthew 24:20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. The question is: if the day comes thst they must take a flight, but it is Sabbath, what do you think they will do ar act?
Also, the first question came across as you personally believed the Greek phrase meant Sunday rather than what now appears you were presenting your position as views from the other forums. By me missing your transition to the second question, it very much so appeared the reason as you were taking the first view was to support your second question. It would have been good when you saw I was connecting the two questions, to have emphasized they were separate. But, I realize that would have been hard to do, since it did (or does?) not appear that you understood what my complaint was or that I had connected the two.
OK, now we understand each other. I could see why you have been harsh, now you have explained it. So, forget it, and apologize me for making you think that way.
Do you think it is possible that the reason you were "counter attacked" on the other forum could be the same reason there was misunderstanding here? It seems as you were presenting here the arguments used against you in the other forum in order to know how to respond to them. That is a good way of learning, but when you find people misunderstanding you it would be good to clarify what you were doing or people will feel duped by you.
No. At the other forum (Indonesian forum), a non SDA was defending his view on Sabath and on Sunday, using Rev 1:10, he was trying to knock me out. I got a bit confuse and brought it here to this forum to seek advice. But, I think it is good to ask also my own problem which is the 2nd question. Only, it was a bit confusing and leading people (as you and Teresaq)to misunderstood me. Also, (next question  ), do you suppose that some of these "M. Div or M.Th. or ministers" could be taking the purpose and reason I was accusing you of? If that being true, could that be why they "counter attacked" you? Can we make this a learning experience, see how I mistakenly connected the two questions, but do you see an incentive for others to connect the two questions? Do you see that there is every reason for them to connect the two questions? My discussion about "Sabbath versus Sunday" is going on a local Internet forum here in Jakarta. I personally know someone who decided to become a Catholic because they said the Sabbath was changed to Sunday. But mainly, the Sabbath was also a good day for their business.  How do you think would be a good way to get the people on the other forum to give the real reason for their difficult replies? Their real reason of neglecting Sabbath and accepting Sunday as the Day of the Lord is that Christ himself has made an end to the Torah by crucifiying the law to his cross. Crucifying the law means ALL laws, including the Ten Commandment, because according to them, there is no separation of the Law. Torah contains of 613 Mitzvoh and all has been nailed to the cross. They do not accept a separation of the Ten Commandments with other law of the Torah. As according to them, it is not biblical and there is no evidence. This what I tried to explain to them and got a very hot argumentationa and counters. After using many verses from the bible (which I always can explain to them the true meaning or intention of those verses), it came to Rev. 1:10, which knock me off a little. I will put some of these difficult replies from their side that was hard for me to reply. In His love
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