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Re: plagues
[Re: Tom]
#117919
08/22/09 03:07 AM
08/22/09 03:07 AM
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Tom, I was thinking about what you said about the forces of nature. You seem to think God must work supernaturally to arbitrarily prevent the forces of nature from causing universal devastation and mass extinction. No, this is your idea. Or, rather, your idea of what I've said. I've not said this, or anything like this. What I've said is that God manages nature, that nature is not self-acting (and quoted the same quotes you later quoted back to me). The point is that if God withdraws from this work, bad things are liable to happen. Consider the pilot of a complicated piece of machinery, like a 747 or the Shuttle. What would happen if the pilot "withdrew"? This idea, however, seems to assume that the forces of nature are self-acting, that they would behave a certain, predictable way if God did not intervene and prevent it. ??? No, they're NOT self-acting, which is why God must manage them. However, based on what I've read, it is clear to me that the forces of nature are totally dependent on God, that nothing in nature is self-acting or capable of doing anything independent of God. Whatever happens in nature happens because God makes it happen. No, not at all. That's Augustine again. There's a difference between managing and micro-managing, I guess is one way of putting it. It's true that nature is governed by laws which God created, and true that God manages nature, but it's not true that if a tornado happens, or any other natural disaster, that God made that happen. For example, rivers flow downhill because God makes them flow downhill. In other words, God did not make water and gravity in such a way that rivers flow downhill without further help from Him.
Nothing is self-acting. Every atom, every molecule in nature behaves the way they do because God makes them behave that way. This is true of natural disasters as well as when the forces of nature function normally. For example, the Flood was not the result of God letting go and allowing the forces of nature to wreak havoc. The forces of nature do not possess the ability to do anything on their own. They are totally dependent on God to function normally and sustain life or to function abnormally and destroy life. MM, are you familiar with chaos theory? Or quantum physics?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: plagues
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#117920
08/22/09 03:11 AM
08/22/09 03:11 AM
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I wish to point out once again the importance of proper diligence when developing doctrines from the Bible or from Mrs. White. now we are walking on shaky ground. Teresa, The fact remains, whether folks like to read and understand her writings in context or not,... No matter who it is, or in what position he may be placed, we are not to look upon any man as a perfect criterion for us. We are to counsel together, and to be subject to the same time we are to exercise the ability God has given us to learn what is truth. Each one of us must look to God for divine enlightenment. We must individually develop a character that will stand the test in the day of God. We must not become set in our ideas, and think that no one should interfere with our opinions.--Review and Herald, June 18, 1889. {CW 45.1}
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: plagues
[Re: Mountain Man]
#117921
08/22/09 03:19 AM
08/22/09 03:19 AM
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Tom, I was thinking about what you said about the forces of nature. You seem to think God must work supernaturally to arbitrarily prevent the forces of nature from causing universal devastation and mass extinction. This idea, however, seems to assume that the forces of nature are self-acting, that they would behave a certain, predictable way if God did not intervene and prevent it.
...Whatever happens in nature happens because God makes it happen. ...
Nothing is self-acting. Every atom, every molecule in nature behaves the way they do because God makes them behave that way. This is true of natural disasters as well as when the forces of nature function normally. ...They are totally dependent on God to function normally and sustain life or to function abnormally and destroy life. did God create hurricanes, cyclones, etc.? Satan works through the elements also to garner his harvest of unprepared souls. He has studied the secrets of the laboratories of nature, and he uses all his power to control the elements as far as God allows. When he was suffered to afflict Job, how quickly flocks and herds, servants, houses, children, were swept away, one trouble succeeding another as in a moment. It is God that shields His creatures and hedges them in from the power of the destroyer. But the Christian world have shown contempt for the law of Jehovah, and the Lord will do just what He has declared that He would--He will withdraw His blessings from the earth and remove His protecting care from those who are rebelling against His law and teaching and forcing others to do the same. Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard. He will favor and prosper some, in order to further his own designs; and he will bring trouble upon others and lead men to believe that it is God who is afflicting them. {CH 460.2}
While appearing to the children of men as a great physician who can heal all their maladies, he will bring disease and disaster, until populous cities are reduced to ruin and desolation. Even now he is at work. In accidents and calamities by sea and by land, in great conflagrations, in fierce tornadoes and terrific hailstorms, in tempests, floods, cyclones, tidal waves, and earthquakes, in every place and in a thousand forms, Satan is exercising his power. He sweeps away the ripening harvest, and famine and distress follow. He imparts to the air a deadly taint, and thousands perish by the pestilence. These visitations are to become more and more frequent and disastrous. Destruction will be upon both man and beast. "The earth mourneth and fadeth away," "The haughty people . . . do languish. The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant." Isaiah 24:4, 5. {CH 461.1} Teresa, yes, there are times when God permits evil angels to manipulate the forces of nature to cause death and destruction.
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: plagues
[Re: teresaq]
#117923
08/22/09 04:08 AM
08/22/09 04:08 AM
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now we are walking on shaky ground. Teresa, The fact remains, whether folks like to read and understand her writings in context or not,... No matter who it is, or in what position he may be placed, we are not to look upon any man as a perfect criterion for us. We are to counsel together, and to be subject to the same time we are to exercise the ability God has given us to learn what is truth. Each one of us must look to God for divine enlightenment. We must individually develop a character that will stand the test in the day of God. We must not become set in our ideas, and think that no one should interfere with our opinions.--Review and Herald, June 18, 1889. {CW 45.1} Let me answer you with your own words: but this is a discussion board, sweetie.  And some emphasis on a part where you did not focus in that quote...and which is also misquoted in your post, but very relevant here. "We are to counsel together, and to be subject to one another; but at the same time we are to exercise the ability God has given us to learn what is truth."The sentence you posted in green was also quite relevant. Now, can we return to discussing the plagues? Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: plagues
[Re: Tom]
#117924
08/22/09 04:19 AM
08/22/09 04:19 AM
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No, not at all. That's Augustine again. There's a difference between managing and micro-managing, I guess is one way of putting it.
It's true that nature is governed by laws which God created, and true that God manages nature, but it's not true that if a tornado happens, or any other natural disaster, that God made that happen. Not true? The day of test and purification is just upon us. Signs of a most startling character appear, in floods, in hurricanes, in tornadoes, in cloudbursts, in casualties by land and by sea, that proclaim the approach of the end of all things. The judgments of God are falling on the world, that men may be awakened to the fact that Christ will come speedily (RH Nov. 8, 1892). {7BC 950.5}
The passing days are eventful and full of peril. Signs of a most startling character appear in floods, in hurricanes, in tornadoes, in earthquakes, in casualties by sea and land. The judgments of God are falling on the world, that men may be awakened to the fact that Christ will come speedily. {SW, March 1, 1909 par. 2}
[The Watchman] It seems to be true at least some of the time. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: plagues
[Re: Tom]
#117925
08/22/09 04:38 AM
08/22/09 04:38 AM
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Let's say someone goes to your house, and tells you to pay him $10,000 and you refuse. He breaks the windows to your house, and makes the same demand. You refuse again. He breaks in and destroys your carpet and makes the same demand. You refuse again. He calls you and makes an obscene phone call threatening to kill your first born and makes the same demand. You refuse again. He makes the same demand. You, afraid he will kill your other children, or your wife, or both, capitulate and pay the $10,000. Are you seriously going to suggest that you have not been compelled against your will to pay the $10,000?
How is this illustration different from the view you hold of what happened in the plagues?
May I ask how this would differ from God choosing to do the following? I was pointed to Adam and Eve in Eden. They partook of the forbidden tree, and were driven from the garden, and then the flaming sword was placed around the tree of life, lest they should partake of its fruit and be immortal sinners. The tree of life was to perpetuate immortality. I heard an angel ask, "Who of the family of Adam have passed the flaming sword, and have partaken of the tree of life?" I heard another angel answer: "Not one of Adam's family have passed that flaming sword and partaken of that tree; therefore there is not an immortal sinner. The soul that sinneth, it shall die an everlasting death, a death that will last forever, from which there will be no hope of a resurrection; and then the wrath of God will be appeased. {CET 108.2} [Christian Experience and Teachings of Ellen G. White (1922)] Would that fit your definition of "force?" I'm not against the concept that God would force events. Nor do I believe Mrs. White has stated that God will not force events. What I'm pointing out is that God will not force our choice. If God did this, why would not everyone be saved? The example you bring here is far more like the devil's kind of force than God's. God is loving. He presents the options. There ARE consequences for wrong choices--eternal ones. However, He still gives you the free choice. You may choose to be lost if you wish. But in order to be saved, He does not force you to pay an exorbitant sum of money. God has no such requirement. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: plagues
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#117941
08/22/09 12:44 PM
08/22/09 12:44 PM
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Lawrence, Kansas
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T:No, not at all. That's Augustine again. There's a difference between managing and micro-managing, I guess is one way of putting it.
It's true that nature is governed by laws which God created, and true that God manages nature, but it's not true that if a tornado happens, or any other natural disaster, that God made that happen.
GC:Not true? No, it's not true. In order for the above to be a true statement, it would need to be the case that God caused the tornado to happen every single time there was a tornado. (Quote from Ellen White speaking of judgements of God)
GC:It seems to be true at least some of the time.
Again, in order for MM's statement to be true, it would have to be the case *all* of the time, not just some of the time. Also, you're assuming that a judgment means God is making something happen, but: I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them. It is Satan's power that is at work at sea and on land, bringing calamity and distress, and sweeping off multitudes to make sure of his prey. And storm and tempest both by sea and land will be, for Satan has come down in great wrath. He is at work. He knows his time is short and, if he is not restrained, we shall see more terrible manifestations of his power than we have ever dreamed of.(14 MR 3) I know from a previous comment that you'd prefer to limit this statement in scope to an isolated incident, but if one reads the part in bold, it's easy to see this is a general principle that's not limited in scope.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: plagues
[Re: Tom]
#117942
08/22/09 01:04 PM
08/22/09 01:04 PM
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Regarding #117925, GC, I asked how the hypothetical example I came up if the person involved would not be forcing your will. You appear to be limiting forcing the will to God's using supernatural power to force you to do something you don't want to, like by demonic possession. But that's not the only way to overpower someone's will. You can do so by causing them to be afraid of you. And this looks to be precisely the view of the plagues you have. That is, you believe God used His power to make Pharaoh more and more afraid of Him, until he was finally so afraid of Him he was compelled to do something he didn't want to do, which was to let the Israelites. In other words, God used compelling power to force Pharaoh's will. Given your understanding of events, I don't see how you can deny this is the case. The example you bring here is far more like the devil's kind of force than God's. The example I brought looks to be just like how you perceive God to have acted in the plagues. I agree that this is like the devil's kind of force, which is why I've been arguing against this perception. God is loving. He presents the options. There ARE consequences for wrong choices--eternal ones. But this isn't what we're dealing with here. God was (in your view) demanding that Pharaoh let His people go, and escalating violence against him if he didn't. However, He still gives you the free choice. You may choose to be lost if you wish. But in order to be saved, He does not force you to pay an exorbitant sum of money. God has no such requirement. GC, this isn't dealing with the issue. Here's how the example works: 1.In the example, you represent Pharaoh. 2.The fellow making demands represents God. 3.The fellow threatens violence against your property and family if you don't give in to his demand. This represents God's doing the same thing in regards to His demand against pharaoh. The questions are: 1.Is the fellow in the example using compelling power to force your will? 2.How does the fellow's actions in the example not represent your view of God's actions in the plagues? To amplify on the second question, if you accused him of using compelling power to force your will, he could respond, "No! I didn't do that! I simply gave you options. I pointed out that this is a dangerous neighborhood, and gave you an option, and pointed out there were consequences to choosing the wrong option. I didn't force your will. You were always free to choose whatever you wanted."
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: plagues
[Re: Tom]
#117943
08/22/09 01:11 PM
08/22/09 01:11 PM
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The example I brought looks to be just like how you perceive God to have acted in the plagues. I agree that this is like the devil's kind of force, which is why I've been arguing against this perception. On the contrary, Pharaoh was not required to pay an exorbitant sum of money. God did not come to him as an extortioner or a thief. God's people did not rightfully belong to Pharaoh, and God merely asked him to let His people go. To top it off, the Israelites were herders and shepherds, both considered abominable to the Egyptians. The Egyptians were afraid of these people becoming too strong for them. It would have seemed the better part of wisdom on Pharaoh's part to agree quickly with God in the matter. On these points, I find your example to greatly fail of being representative of the plagues. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: plagues
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#117944
08/22/09 01:20 PM
08/22/09 01:20 PM
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GC, this isn't dealing with the issue. Here's how the example works:
1.In the example, you represent Pharaoh.
2.The fellow making demands represents God.
3.The fellow threatens violence against your property and family if you don't give in to his demand. This represents God's doing the same thing in regards to His demand against pharaoh.
The questions are:
1.Is the fellow in the example using compelling power to force your will?
2.How does the fellow's actions in the example not represent your view of God's actions in the plagues?
Tom, This greatly misrepresents God. Your questions here are akin to asking a man if he has stopped beating his wife. No answer can be a correct or appropriate response. God is not who you think He is, and God is not who you think I think He is. Let me ask you this, does a death penalty represent "threatening violence?" Keep in mind that all of Egypt represented LOST PEOPLE. They did not know God. If God had to use extraordinary means to awaken them to a realization of their true condition and of the true power of the King of the Universe, I would hope He would do so. Doing nothing will save no one. Even killing a few for the salvation of others is better than killing none and saving none, don't you think? Sin is like a cancer. The surgeon must frequently remove good parts of the body (kill them) in order to save the rest of the body. We frequently hear of people who have lost a lung, a kidney, their voice box, etc. in order to preserve their life. Did the Doctor do "violence" to them? I object to the use of this word under the circumstances. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
Last edited by Green Cochoa; 08/22/09 01:43 PM. Reason: Added one phrase for clarity
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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