They choose to reject the wooings of the Holy Spirit.



I don't think this the type of question one should be asking. This is, again, concentrating on the physical aspect of things. In particular, this question deals with the physical aspects of the first death, which is really not what the second death is about.



That's not what I'm asking. That is, I'm not asking why you think they will suffer, but why you think they need to suffer.



Why wouldn't they?

I'm renumbering your questions, one number for each.



We're not told. I could speculated, if you want.



How many senses of ceasing to exist our there?



Those in the second resurrection are those who have hardened their hearts against God's mercy and grace. Responding to the mercy and grace of God sets sinners free.



It does cause then to suffer, at least to some extent. The full revelation of what they've done waits for the judgment.



What do you mean?



I think this EW passage, and the GC 672-673 passages, should be studied in conjunction with passages such as DA 107-108, DA 764, GC 535-536, and GC 541-543. I've already given my opinion as to the meaning of these passages.



It's describing the judgment.



It's describing the judgment.



It did cause them to suffer. They ran from Jesus as fast as they could. They were able to get away from Him, as He was confined here, but the wicked will have nowhere to hide later on, which is why they cry for the mountains to fall on them.



No, He let them run away.



They die afterward.



God is the course of life.



God is the source of life.



They do die after comprehending the truth.



Why do you think there's a difference?



It's an experience similar to the one Christ went through on the cross, which involves feelings of condemnations, hope and despair.



Their sin.



Sin is based on selfishness. It's a destructive principle, not one that can support life. Life can only be found in God.



Why do you think He does this?



Life comes from God.



Why do you think they will learn something new about God?



Let's answer the preliminary question first. (21)



Ditto.



What knowledge?



As DA 764 states, if God left them to reap the full result of their sin, they would perish. But God has allowed them to live that the principles of sin could be seen.

That's 25 questions. That seems a bit excessive. Many of them seem repetitive, and many have been asked before. I think it would be good to limit the number of questions.

Also, I've repeatedly referred to the detailed post that I wrote and cross posted. I think the principles involved that answer your questions are found there, and found in a better form than quick little answers to dozens of questions provides.

Is it two different types of suffering? Or, do they suffer for the same reasons?

When you say a different type of suffering, what do you mean? You mean different than anything they've experienced before?

I would say different, in this way, but different in terms of circumstances. So the reasons are the same (the things I listed before), but in the judgment there's a revelation of truth the wicked haven't seen before.

Please do.


I never know what to expect with you, Tom. Sometimes asking the obvious is helpful. Not always, apparently. At any rate, I think “cease to exist” refers to the fact sinful flesh is consumed by the brightness of the radiant glory of God’s person and presence. What do you think it means?


Jesus said, “The truth shall set you free.”


How does the truth cause sinners to suffer now? For example, how does paying for a meal on Sabbath cause backsliders to suffer?


Death. This questions is a follow up to the previous one. It was not intended to stand alone.


Do you think the fire God rains down upon them symbolizes revisiting their sins in judgment? In what sense are they “many days consuming”?


Do you think judgment involves resurrected sinners revisiting their sins?


Why, then, in the GC does it say the fire is rained down after the end of judgment? Here’s the chronology:

1. “As soon as the books of record are opened, and the eye of Jesus looks upon the wicked, they are conscious of every sin which they have ever committed.”
2. “. . . all behold the enormity of their guilt.”
3. “They vainly seek to hide from the divine majesty of His countenance, outshining the glory of the sun . . .”
4. “The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah.”
5. “Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them.”
6. “Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire.”
7. “Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." . . . In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed”.


They will not cry for the mountains to fall on them. See chronology above. Also, why do you think short exposures to the full revelation of God are non-lethal? Why didn’t it cause them to die when Jesus was here in the flesh?


Why is the physical presence of God necessary to cause sinners to suffer and die?


How long afterward? Why doesn’t it cause them to die immediately?


Not the breath of life? What does He do to keep them alive? Why doesn’t revisiting their first sin cause them to die?


Are they connected to God? Or, are they separated from Him?


Not right away. Why?


You said judgment makes a difference between how and why they suffer. Did I misunderstand you? If not, how and why is it different?


But not death?


Not truth?


You said God keeps them alive in spite of sin and selfishness. What must He do to prevent sin from causing them to die? What is your definition of death? Does it involve the functions of brain, blood, and breath? Or, does God keep them alive whether these are functioning or not?


Because they’re not dead. Why?


What does God do to prevent their sins from causing them to die?


Do you think they will learn anything new about God, something they are not already aware of?


Okay.


Okay.


The truth they knew about God before they rebelled.


Again, what does He to do to prevent their sins from causing them to die?


I only expected 10 answers to the 10 questions I asked. Some questions qualified others. One answer should have sufficed.

This is the third or fourth time I've bumped this post. Is there a reason why you haven't addressed it?

This is a revelation of truth that Jesus did not already reveal in His earthly life?

No, it's a revelation the wicked hadn't seen before.

I don't have anything to add to the discussion we've had in the past. (I'm sorry I didn't respond earlier. I had intended to, and thought I had.)

1.It would be similar to Isaiah's experience, where he said, "Woe is me, I am undone." Seeing God's character made plain to him his own character, which he couldn't bear. It would have been similar to that, but worse.



2.To expire.



From "The Great Controversy"



The same principle applies to the wicked. The truth sets one free if its principles are received into the soul.



I don't know what made you think of "backsliders" "paying for a meal on Sabbath," but it made me think of the following by Ty Gibson:



I think Ty is bringing out the important issues here. The truth that sets us free is the truth about God.



You're asking why God arbitrarily does something. What makes you think God is acting arbitrarily?



Please quote something I've said, and ask me about that.



I think this is referring to the suffering of the wicked.



That is a thing which is involved.



I think this passage needs to be studied in conjunction with other passages which discuss the destruction of the wicked, including GC 535-536, 541-543; DA 107-108; DA 764.



The following says virtually this:



It says "they would welcome destruction." Calling for a mountain to fall on you is simply another way of expressing this thought. So the meaning I was conveying was accurate, if not the actual expression used.

I'm sorry that you think of God's revelation in terms of "short exposures," apparently as if it were like radioactive material or something like that.

Here's something else from Ty which I think accurately portrays the idea I have in mind:






It appears to me that you're still thinking of things in physical terms, so this looks to be a false assumption. Also, why do you think God's physical presence is necessary for either suffering or death to occur? Surely you've seen suffering and death apart from God's physical presence.



It's altogether. It seems to me you're trying to dissect the process instead of understanding the fundamental principles involved. I'd once again invite you to consider the detail post I wrote.



No. God is the source of life.



God does many things to keep people alive. I'm sure I couldn't list them all.



I think it would be better to think of things in terms of the principles involved. The GC 541-543 passage would be good to consider in this regard.



The righteous are connected to God, and the unrighteous are separated.



It appears to me that they do die in conjunction with realizing the truth. I think GC 541-543 brings this out.



Why don't you quote what I said and I'll comment.



No, I didn't say that.



The inevitable result of sin is death. Not truth.



Not leave them to reap the full result of their sin.



If you're talking about the second death, it involves the things which Christ experienced. This is the primary aspect. Of course, the wicked will cease to exists, which is a part of the second death. Christ did not cease to exist, which is why I don't think it's accurate to say that He died the second death, but we can say He suffered it, or tasted it (inspiration uses both of these terms), and I think the best way to understand what the wicked will experience is to consider Christ's experience on the cross and in Gethsemane.



I'm not sure what you're asking. First of all, I'm not sure why you think God is doing something arbitrarily. If what you're asking is why God didn't leave Satan and his followers to reap the full result of their sin, it is so the principles Satan was espousing could be seen.



He doesn't leave them to reap the full result of their sin.



I haven't thought about this. Why are you asking?



It's a part of what they know. I don't see how you could separate one's knowledge into different parts, what one knows before or after a certain point in time. It all gets jumbled together in our minds. I'm not sure if this is what you were wanting to get at or not.




He doesn't leave them to reap the full result of their sin.



You asked over twice as many questions than 10. When you ask multiple questions together, it's your intent that I just answer one of them? If so, that's fine, I'll do that.