Only the righteous have the advantage of this, however. The wicked receive their "recompense" which is due them. Their punishment did not fall on Christ, for they did not choose Christ.



Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

There are two ways of thinking of "justice" beings suggested. One way says that God leaves the sinner to reap the full result of his choice, (as per DA 764). The other suggestion is that God takes an arbitrary, cruel action (i.e. burning people alive) and does this to people He deems deserves it.

The idea that burning people alive is "just" has nothing to do with the justice which Jesus Christ taught and lived.



Actually, all do. Not all are saved, of course, but all benefit by the sacrifice of Christ.





Before responding more fully, to make sure I'm not misunderstanding you, please elaborate on your thought here.



DA 107-108, which says that "the light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, will slay the wicked" speaks of this verse. This is dealing with the revelation of God's character. To those who open their hearts to the truth, this is life. To those who refuse to do so, the revelation of God's character of love is death.

Tom,

It's back to the two goats: the scapegoat did not receive the same punishment as the one which was sacrificed. The scapegoat probably thought he was getting off the hook. His time had not yet come.



Notice how Mrs. White specifically says the following:

1. Satan will bear the punishment of his own sins.
2. Satan will bear the punishment of the sins committed by the saved.
3. Satan will suffer the "full penalty of sin in the fires that shall destroy all the wicked."

Sounds like the following conclusions are sane:

1. Christ's death does not cover the wicked, for they are represented by the scapegoat and must suffer their own penalties.
2. The suffering for their sin is by fire.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

So you are saying that Satan was wrong for saying what God did was "injustice and cruelty"? That if anyone else were doing the exact same thing, it would be considered unjust and cruel, but since God was doing it, the exact same thing, it was considered just and righteous without needing to be given any more thought.

Do you think the statement could allow for the idea that the actions were not coming from God? Or that the actions of removal of protection, of reaping the results, was under argument and was incorrectly being called against God?

Do you think that the idea that they may have marveled at God waiting so long implies that God was wrong for waiting so long or that they had a wrong concept of the character of God and what He did or didn't do? Do you think they may have been wrong for having that view?

GC, we don't believe in a limited atonement. That's an idea from Calvin. Our tradition is Armenian.

The statement I cited earlier, from DA 660, explained that to the death of Christ we owe even our earthly life. This demonstrates that Christ's death covers the wicked.

Here's another one from "The Desire of Ages":



From Scripture, a few texts which contradict the limited atonement idea are 1 John 2:1-2, Romans 5:18, 2 Cor. 5:14-15, and Isa. 44:22.

Regarding the scapegoat:



Satan, like every other lost being who has refused Christ's offer of pardon, must bear the responsibility for what he has done. Since he created sin, his responsibility is greater than any others, but he doesn't bear anyone's sins in the sense of an atonement. You can't divide that penalty of sins between Christ and Satan. When Christ said, "Let the punishment fall on Me!" this punishment involved the sins of all.

Regarding the scapegoat, note from the EW quote that it's not only Satan's responsibility for what he's done to the righteous that's involved, but for what he's done to the wicked as well.

Do you think 1, 4, and 6 describe the same thing, and that chronologically 4 and 6 belong with 1? Please note that I’ve renumbered the list to set apart 4. Other than 4 and 6 do you think the rest of her description is chronologically accurate?

Chronologically, where do you place 3 in relation to judgment? Does it happen before, during, or after judgment?

Chronologically, where do you place 5 in relation to judgment? Does it happen before, during, or after judgment?

1. “As soon as the books of record are opened, and the eye of Jesus looks upon the wicked, they are conscious of every sin which they have ever committed . . . all behold the enormity of their guilt.”
2. “They vainly seek to hide from the divine majesty of His countenance, outshining the glory of the sun . . .”
3. “The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah . . . Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them.”
4. “Fire comes down from God out of heaven.”
5. “The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire.”
6. “Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished according to their deeds.”
7. “In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed.”

Let’s look at the passages you cited above as primary:


Do you think this describes the same thing as 1?


Do you think this describes the same thing as 1?


Do you think this describes the same thing as 1?


Do you think this describes the same thing as 1?


Do you think this describes the same thing as 1?


Do you think this describes the same thing as 1?

Do you think those times when divinity flashed through humanity, when Jesus was here in the flesh, may not have continued for a long enough time, or have been an intense enough revelation of God's character, to cause the death of those who rejected Jesus?

What do you think would have happened had Jesus not restricted the duration or intensity? Do you think running and hiding from Jesus played a part in preventing their death?

Also, in judgment, what do you think God will do to prevent His character from causing the wicked to die prematurely? Do you think it is necessary for God to subject the wicked to a full, unveiled, unrestricted revelation of His character for them to suffer and die?


I asked, “If it were possible to hide from God in judgment, would evil men and angels avoid suffering and death?” To which you responded, “They could for that cause . . .” I assumed the “cause” you were referring to was God. That is, if the presence of God were the only cause of suffering and death, then, if it were it possible to hide from Him, suffering and death could be avoided.


Do you think sin is the only thing that causes suffering and death in judgment?

Do you think the revelation of God’s character causes the wicked to suffer and die in judgment?

When do you think God’s character gives life to the righteous? Do you think it is what resurrects them? Or, do you think it gives them life afterward? If so, how does it differ from the life they already have?


Do you think it is necessary for God to cause their heart to beat 1) during judgment, and 2) after judgment? Do you think they would die if He didn’t? And, do you think they die because God stops causing their heart to beat?


Do you think the wicked are separated from God before, during, and after judgment? Do you think they are cut off from life? If so, who or what is keeping them alive?


Yes, you did. However, you didn’t answer my question. Above you said God keeps sinners alive by causing their heart to beat. Do you think another part of why they die is because God stops causing their heart to beat?


Do you think acknowledging the justice of God will cause sinners to “stop thinking and lose consciousness forever”? Do you think God will stop causing their heart to beat?


Do you think this will cause sinners to “stop thinking and lose consciousness forever”? Do you think God will stop causing their heart to beat?

Lucifer didn't create sin. It originated with him, but he didn't create it. "Sin is the transgression of the law. This is the only definition of sin. Without the law there can be no transgression. {7BC 951.3}} Sin is the result of FMAs breaking the law of God.


Jesus earned the right on the cross to own the sin of the world. With it comes the responsibility of eliminating it. It rests with Jesus to eliminate sin. The elimination of sin requires the death of sinners. This Jesus accomplishes by destroying evil men and angels in the lake of fire. The sins of the saved are eliminated with Satan. No sinners means no sin.

No.



I don't think I'd put it that way. I've written out what I think will happen.



As I wrote before, I think it's a part of the judgment.



I think all of this is describing the judgment. I think the last thing that happens is item 7.



They express a similar principle, but the DA statement is a broader statement.



1 is included in this.



Same answer.



I'll lump these together. I think these are describing general principles which should be applied to the study of the judgment, including item 1, which you're asking about.

Earlier you said the “form” of the Father, in the passage above, refers to the attributes of His character. Beholding His character, you said, would have caused Ellen to die. Three things:

1. “He who contemplates God's glory and infinite love, will have humble views of himself, but by beholding the character of God, he will be changed into His divine image. {TMK 175.4} Why do you think beholding His “form” would have killed her?
2. “By beholding the character of Christ you will become changed into His likeness. {AG 299.2} Why didn’t beholding the “form” of Jesus kill her?
3. “He sent His Son into the world, that through His taking the human form and nature, humanity and divinity combined in Him would elevate man in the scale of moral value with God. {1SM 340.3} “It was in the order of God that Christ should take upon himself the form and nature of fallen man . . . {4aSG 115.3} If, as you say, “form” means “character”, then, according to these passages, Jesus took the sinful character of man.


You believe Lucifer sinned willfully in the presence of God. Why do you think he was able to do so without being destroyed? Also, who or what do you is preventing evil angels from reaping what they have sown and dying now?


Ellen wrote “flames” will destroy the wicked. Some die right away, some after many days. But you say sin or the character of God or a combo of both will destroy the wicked. Elsewhere Ellen wrote:

Since the Flood, fire as well as water has been God's agent to destroy very wicked cities. These judgments are sent that those who lightly regard God's law and trample upon His authority may be led to tremble before His power and to confess His just sovereignty. As men have beheld burning mountains pouring forth fire and flames and torrents of melted ore, drying up rivers, overwhelming populous cities, and everywhere spreading ruin and desolation, the stoutest heart has been filled with terror and infidels and blasphemers have been constrained to acknowledge the infinite power of God. {PP 109.1}


In the passage above she says the destroying fire that engulfs the earth is the power of the second death. You said the fire that destroys the earth and cremates the wicked will not come until after the wicked taste and consume the second death in judgment.

But here Ellen said the power of the fire of the second death is the same fire that engulfs the earth in flames and reduces everything and everyone to ashes.

She also said the righteous escape the fire of the second death by dwelling safely in the New Jerusalem. This wouldn't make sense if, as you say, the fire of the second death is the character of God.


You say the wicked will experience anguish of soul for the same reasons Jesus did on the cross; however, the following quote, contrasted with the ones above, paint a different picture: “They vainly seek to hide from the divine majesty of His countenance, outshining the glory of the sun . . . {GC 667.2} Jesus suffered because His Father hid His face; whereas, the wicked suffer because He doesn’t hide His face. How can you say they will experience soul anguish for the same reasons?