Tom,

You are still making Satan's accusation that God is cruel, simply because the "final" judgment has "turned up the heat."

God was not meting out justice for every one of the antediluvians' sins at the flood. They will all be raised again to experience the final deluge by fire. It is at that time that they will experience the true "justice." But it is this justice that you deem "cruelty."

Satan's long-held argument...that God is not just...not fair. Same song, second verse.

As Mike likes to quote from Mrs. White, "Who will say God will not do what He says He will do?"

Oh...and the context for that statement? It seems to be speaking directly at those who espouse the views you bring here, Tom.



Punishment is a step beyond natural cause and effect. If a child is bitten by the squirrel his parents told him not to touch, the bite may be one thing, and the punishment a thing of a different sort! Sin may have one form of punishment, but God has the final say.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Where in the following account do you think the fire of God’s love coming down from heaven fits it chronologically?

Also, how you would reorganize the following facts so they reflect your chronological timeline?

1. “As soon as the books of record are opened, and the eye of Jesus looks upon the wicked, they are conscious of every sin which they have ever committed.”
2. “. . . all behold the enormity of their guilt.”
3. “They vainly seek to hide from the divine majesty of His countenance, outshining the glory of the sun . . .”
4. “The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah.”
5. “Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them.”
6. “Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire.”
7. “Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." . . . In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed”.


Why not? What are you basing your chronology on? In relation to the judgment where do you place the following fact - "Fire comes down from God out of heaven."

Ok.

Do you believe God regulates the revelation of His character to yield intended results? If so, how does He regulate it? What do you think would be the result if He didn’t regulate it? Is human comprehension of God’s character necessary for the intended results to be realized? Did running and hiding from Jesus play a part in regulating the intended results?


How would hiding from God prevent them from suffering and dying if it were the only thing that caused suffering and death? What are some of the other ways sin causes resurrected sinners to suffer and then die?


Please name them.


Why do you think this insight answers my question?


Is “stop thinking and lose consciousness forever” your definition of death? Or, do you think blood and breath must also cease functioning?


Do you think God will regulate (gradually, guardedly release) His character so as not to blow them away and cause them to die prematurely? Or, will He reveal His character fully to them in judgment in one fell swoop? Or, do you think sin, not the revelation of His character, will cause them to “stop thinking and lose consciousness forever”? If so, what role does revealing His character play in judgment?

I'm not 100% certain about it, but for now, thanks to you, I am favorably inclined to believe what you posted above.

No I'm not. I pointed out the difference in what I wrote between your view of the Flood, and your view of the judgment. Even given the way you look at things, there's a big difference involved, which, again, I pointed out. This is an important distinction which should be considered.



Not at all! I don't think you're grasping what I'm finding objectionable. It is the idea that God burns people alive, and supernaturally acts in a way to prevent them from dying, as well as supernaturally acting in a way to prevent their suffering from ending. You have God supposedly doing what could only be deemed "torture" on this side of the resurrection. Indeed, Ellen White uses the term "unceasing tortures," to describe the idea you are suggesting, with the only difference being the time duration.

As I've pointed out, GC 542 describes God as using the principles of "kindness, mercy and love" in the judgment. Burning people alive in the suggested manner could hardly be considered "kindness."

The origin of this idea of hell is paganism. There's nothing in the law that suggests that people who disobey will be burned alive. Christ said, "Let their punishment fall on Me!" Although He suffered the death that was ours, Christ was not burned alive.



It's not at all the same, GC. If you don't see the difference here (I'm talking about your burning alive idea and your idea of the flood), you're missing what I'm objecting to.



No, GC. This text is not addressing the points I've been making.



Christ said, "Let their punishment fall on Me!" We see from the cross what the punishment for sin looks like.

Regarding #121048, regarding the chronology, I think the suffering of the wicked takes place during the judgment, then the wicked die, then they are engulfed by flames.

Regarding what I'm basing my chronology on, DA 764, GC 541-543, DA 107-108 are the primary passages, in connect with, of course, GC 672-673. I've tried to come up with a scenario which makes sense given all that's been written on the subject, not just the one passage in GC 672-673 (or the EW passage which was its precursor). Also, I've tried to bring to bear teachings we have regarding God's character, primarily the revelation of Jesus Christ.

This is a problem I've been working on for quite a number of years. These discussions help. I'm glad to see (from #121049) that your view is evolving as well. We're still not seeing eye to eye, but then, Rome wasn't built in a day!

I think "regulate" is a poor choice of words. "Regulate" makes me think of heat, or things like that. Not God's character. God's character is beautiful. It describes what God is like. So instead of asking, "Do you believe God regulates the revelation of His character to yield intended results?" I would ask something like this, "Do you think God reveals His character in such a way as to obtain a desired result?" My answer to this question is, of course. God reveals His character for the purpose of leading us to repentance. The goodness of God leads us to repentance. (Romans 2:4).



I take it you're asking how, if sin is the only thing that causes suffering and death, could running from the revelation of God's character prevent that from happening? There's a couple difficulties I see with the question. One is is assumes that sin is the only think which causes sin and death, when what was said was that wherever sin exists it's inevitable that suffering and death will be present. A second difficulty is that you seem to be separating sin from the suffering/death that a revelation of God's character would effect, when sin is precisely the reason that the revelation of God's character has a negative impact on the wicked. Remember, the light of the glory of God (which is what we're talking about here, the revelation of His character) which gives life to the righteous will slay the wicked. God is good, so the revelation of His character is simply the revelation of His goodness. There's no reason while revealing goodness should harm anyone. This speaks to what a terrible thing sin is.



I'll name one. Causing our heart to beat.



Because it discusses what you're asking about.



Similar to here.



I said this was a part of it. "Of course a part of the second death is that they will stop thinking and lose consciousness forever."



I spoke of regulating earlier. Regarding the role of revealing His character, the final chapter of "The Great Controversy" addresses this, the part I quoted for GC in regards to his question about every knee bowing and every tongue confessing. So that's an important part. Actually, that's the most important part. The whole Great Controversy has been about God's character. Every intelligent being must recognize that God has acted well throughout time.



So this is one vital role it plays.

Another role is discussed in GC 541-543, which discusses that the exclusion from heaven of the wicked is voluntary with themselves, as well as that heaven would be torture for them.

Do you think he uttered imprecations correctly or incorrectly?

Satan was wrong. God has every right, and then some, to bring justice. The law demands death for sinners. The law makes no allowance at all in this regard. We are all on probationary time, Satan included.

In the final justice, God also has the right to punish sinners proportionate to their deeds, Satan's and others' arguments notwithstanding. The righteous universe looking on will proclaim God's justice, righteousness, and mercy in so doing. In fact, they may marvel that God waited as long as He did to do it.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.