M: Do you believe God regulates the revelation of His character to yield intended results? If so, how does He regulate it? What do you think would be the result if He didn’t regulate it? Is human comprehension of God’s character necessary for the intended results to be realized? Did running and hiding from Jesus play a part in regulating the intended results?

T: I think "regulate" is a poor choice of words. "Regulate" makes me think of heat, or things like that. Not God's character. God's character is beautiful. It describes what God is like. So instead of asking, "Do you believe God regulates the revelation of His character to yield intended results?" I would ask something like this, "Do you think God reveals His character in such a way as to obtain a desired result?" My answer to this question is, of course. God reveals His character for the purpose of leading us to repentance. The goodness of God leads us to repentance. (Romans 2:4).

M:Do you think those times when divinity flashed through humanity, when Jesus was here in the flesh, may not have continued for a long enough time, or have been an intense enough revelation of God's character, to cause the death of those who rejected Jesus?

What do you think would have happened had Jesus not restricted the duration or intensity? Do you think running and hiding from Jesus played a part in preventing their death?

In the time of John the Baptist, Christ was about to appear as the revealer of the character of God. His very presence would make manifest to men their sin. Only as they were willing to be purged from sin could they enter into fellowship with Him. Only the pure in heart could abide in His presence. (DA 108)

Also, in judgment, what do you think God will do to prevent His character from causing the wicked to die prematurely?

Do you think it is necessary for God to subject the wicked to a full, unveiled, unrestricted revelation of His character for them to suffer and die?

God is the life-giver. From the beginning, all His laws were ordained to life. But sin broke in upon the order that God had established, and discord followed. So long as sin exists, suffering and death are inevitable.(God's Amazing Grace 73)

M: How would hiding from God prevent them from suffering and dying if it were the only thing that caused suffering and death?

T: I take it you're asking how, if sin is the only thing that causes suffering and death, could running from the revelation of God's character prevent that from happening?

M:I asked, “If it were possible to hide from God in judgment, would evil men and angels avoid suffering and death?” To which you responded, “They could for that cause . . .” I assumed the “cause” you were referring to was God. That is, if the presence of God were the only cause of suffering and death, then, if it were it possible to hide from Him, suffering and death could be avoided.

M:Do you think sin is the only thing that causes suffering and death in judgment?

M:Do you think the revelation of God’s character causes the wicked to suffer and die in judgment?

When do you think God’s character gives life to the righteous? Do you think it is what resurrects them? Or, do you think it gives them life afterward? If so, how does it differ from the life they already have?

Do you think it is necessary for God to cause their heart to beat 1) during judgment, and 2) after judgment? Do you think they would die if He didn’t? And, do you think they die because God stops causing their heart to beat?

T: Regarding the role of revealing His character, the final chapter of "The Great Controversy" addresses this, the part I quoted for GC in regards to his question about every knee bowing and every tongue confessing. So that's an important part. Actually, that's the most important part. The whole Great Controversy has been about God's character. Every intelligent being must recognize that God has acted well throughout time.

Quote:
With all the facts of the great controversy in view, the whole universe, both loyal and rebellious, with one accord declare: "Just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of saints." (GC 671)

So this is one vital role it plays.

Do you think acknowledging the justice of God will cause sinners to “stop thinking and lose consciousness forever”? Do you think God will stop causing their heart to beat?

T: Another role is discussed in GC 541-543, which discusses that the exclusion from heaven of the wicked is voluntary with themselves, as well as that heaven would be torture for them.

M:Do you think this will cause sinners to “stop thinking and lose consciousness forever”? Do you think God will stop causing their heart to beat?

The Son of God, undertaking to become the Redeemer of the race, placed Adam in a new relation to his Creator. He was still fallen; but a door of hope was opened to him. The wrath of God still hung over Adam, but the execution of the sentence of death was delayed, and the indignation of God was restrained, because Christ had entered upon the work of becoming man's Redeemer. Christ was to take the wrath of God, which in justice should fall upon man. He became a refuge for man, and, although man was indeed a criminal, deserving the wrath of God, yet he could, by faith in Christ, run into the refuge provided and be safe. In the midst of death there was life if man chose to accept it. The holy and infinite God, who dwelleth in light unapproachable, could no longer talk with man. No communication could now exist directly between man and his Maker. {Con 19.4}

God forbears, for a time, the full execution of the sentence of death pronounced upon man. Satan flattered himself that he had forever broken the link between heaven and earth. But in this he was greatly mistaken and disappointed. The Father had given the world into the hands of His Son for Him to redeem from the curse and the disgrace of Adam's failure and fall. Through Christ alone can man now find access to God. And through Christ alone will the Lord hold communication with man. {Con 20.1}

Christ volunteered to maintain and vindicate the holiness of the divine law. He was not to do away the smallest part of its claims in the work of redemption for man, but, in order to save man and maintain the sacred claims and justice of His Father's law, He gave Himself a sacrifice for the guilt of man. Christ's life did not, in a single instance, detract from the claims of His Father's law, but, through firm obedience to all its precepts and by dying for the sins of those who had transgressed it, He established its immutability. {Con 20.2}

After the transgression of Adam, Satan saw that the ruin was complete. The human race was brought into a deplorable condition. Man was cut off from intercourse with God. It was Satan's design that the state of man should be the same as that of the fallen angels, in rebellion against God, uncheered by a gleam of hope. He reasoned that if God pardoned sinful man whom He had created, He would also pardon him and his angels and receive them into His favor. But he was disappointed. {Con 20.3}

The divine Son of God saw that no arm but His own could save fallen man, and He determined to help man. He left the fallen angels to perish in their rebellion, but stretched forth His hand to rescue perishing man. The angels who were rebellious were dealt with according to the light and experience they had abundantly enjoyed in heaven. Satan, the chief of the fallen angels, once had an exalted position in heaven. He was next in honor to Christ. The knowledge which he, as well as the angels who fell with him, had of the character of God, of His goodness, His mercy, wisdom, and excellent glory, made their guilt unpardonable. {Con 21.1}

There was no possible hope for the redemption of those who had witnessed and enjoyed the inexpressible glory of heaven, and had seen the terrible majesty of God, and, in presence of all this glory, had rebelled against Him. There were no new and wonderful exhibitions of God's exalted power that could impress them so deeply as those they had already experienced. If they could rebel in the very presence of glory inexpressible, they could not be placed in a more favorable condition to be proved. There was no reserve force of power, nor were there any greater heights and depths of infinite glory to overpower their jealous doubts and rebellious murmuring. Their guilt and their punishment must be in proportion to their exalted privileges in the heavenly courts. {Con 21.2}

Fallen man, because of his guilt, could no longer come directly before God with his supplications; for his transgression of the divine law had placed an impassable barrier between the holy God and the transgressor. But a plan was devised that the sentence of death should rest upon a Substitute. In the plan of redemption there must be the shedding of blood, for death must come in consequence of man's sin. The beasts for sacrificial offerings were to prefigure Christ. In the slain victim, man was to see the fulfillment for the time being of God's word, "Thou shalt surely die." And the flowing of the blood from the victim would also signify an atonement. There was no virtue in the blood of animals; but the shedding of the blood of beasts was to point forward to a Redeemer who would one day come to the world and die for the sins of men. And thus Christ would fully vindicate His Father's law. {Con 21.3}

M: Do you think 1, 4, and 6 describe the same thing, and that chronologically 4 and 6 belong with 1?

T: No. I think the last thing that happens is item 7.

T: Regarding what I'm basing my chronology on, DA 764, GC 541-543, DA 107-108 are the primary passages, in connect with, of course, GC 672-673. I've tried to come up with a scenario which makes sense given all that's been written on the subject, not just the one passage in GC 672-673.

T: I'll lump these together. I think these are describing general principles which should be applied to the study of the judgment, including item 1, which you're asking about.

The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life... God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

M: Do you think those times when divinity flashed through humanity, when Jesus was here in the flesh, may not have continued for a long enough time, or have been an intense enough revelation of God's character, to cause the death of those who rejected Jesus?

T: I don't think of it this way.

M: What do you think would have happened had Jesus not restricted the duration or intensity? Do you think running and hiding from Jesus played a part in preventing their death?

T: I think these questions are rather odd, but the following may shed some light on what you're asking:

M: Also, in judgment, what do you think God will do to prevent His character from causing the wicked to die prematurely?

T: Why would this matter? Why are you asking this?

M: Do you think it is necessary for God to subject the wicked to a full, unveiled, unrestricted revelation of His character for them to suffer and die?

T: Anyway, to answer your question, it's not necessary for God to do anything specific to cause the wicked to suffer and die.

M: I asked, “If it were possible to hide from God in judgment, would evil men and angels avoid suffering and death?” To which you responded, “They could for that cause . . .” I assumed the “cause” you were referring to was God. That is, if the presence of God were the only cause of suffering and death, then, if it were it possible to hide from Him, suffering and death could be avoided.

T: "So long as sin exists, suffering and death are inevitable." The problem isn't God.

M: Do you think sin is the only thing that causes suffering and death in judgment?

T: Whether in the judgment or not, all suffering and death is the result of sin.

M: When do you think God’s character gives life to the righteous? Do you think it is what resurrects them? Or, do you think it gives them life afterward? If so, how does it differ from the life they already have?

T: "He who has the Son, has life." This happens when one believes. Eternal life starts before the resurrection.

M: Do you think it is necessary for God to cause their heart to beat 1) during judgment, and 2) after judgment? Do you think they would die if He didn’t? And, do you think they die because God stops causing their heart to beat?

T: MM, these questions don't make sense to me. For example, "Do you think they would die if He didn’t?" It sounds from this question that you are thinking after the resurrection human beings won't have hearts that beat? Or you have some doubt about this? Am I understanding you correctly?

"Sin is the transgression of the law. This is the only definition of sin. Without the law there can be no transgression. {7BC 951.3}} Sin is the result of FMAs breaking the law of God.

T: You can't divide that penalty of sins between Christ and Satan. When Christ said, "Let the punishment fall on Me!" this punishment involved the sins of all. Regarding the scapegoat, note from the EW quote that it's not only Satan's responsibility for what he's done to the righteous that's involved, but for what he's done to the wicked as well.

M:Jesus earned the right on the cross to own the sin of the world. With it comes the responsibility of eliminating it. It rests with Jesus to eliminate sin. The elimination of sin requires the death of sinners.

This Jesus accomplishes by destroying evil men and angels in the lake of fire.

God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. (GC 36)

God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Everyone who stifles the admonitions of conscience is sowing the seeds of unbelief, and these will produce a sure harvest.(COL 84)

The sins of the saved are eliminated with Satan. No sinners means no sin.

M:Earlier you said the “form” of the Father, in the passage above, refers to the attributes of His character.

Beholding His character, you said, would have caused Ellen to die.

Three things:

1. “He who contemplates God's glory and infinite love, will have humble views of himself, but by beholding the character of God, he will be changed into His divine image. {TMK 175.4} Why do you think beholding His “form” would have killed her?
2. “By beholding the character of Christ you will become changed into His likeness. {AG 299.2} Why didn’t beholding the “form” of Jesus kill her?
3. “He sent His Son into the world, that through His taking the human form and nature, humanity and divinity combined in Him would elevate man in the scale of moral value with God. {1SM 340.3} “It was in the order of God that Christ should take upon himself the form and nature of fallen man . . . {4aSG 115.3} If, as you say, “form” means “character”, then, according to these passages, Jesus took the sinful character of man.

M: Do you think those times when divinity flashed through humanity, when Jesus was here in the flesh, may not have continued for a long enough time, or have been an intense enough revelation of God's character, to cause the death of those who rejected Jesus?

T: I don't think of it this way.

Here’s what you wrote about it earlier on this thread: “[Divinity flashing through humanity] did have the effect of causing suffering. They ran away from Christ's presence. Also the divinity flashing through humanity may not have continued for a long enough time, or have been an intense enough revelation of God's character to cause their death. God wasn't intending that they should die.” So, as you see, the thought at least crossed your mind.

M: What do you think would have happened had Jesus not restricted the duration or intensity? Do you think running and hiding from Jesus played a part in preventing their death?

T: I think these questions are rather odd, but the following may shed some light on what you're asking:

Please bear in mind you brought it up first.

M: Also, in judgment, what do you think God will do to prevent His character from causing the wicked to die prematurely?

T: Why would this matter? Why are you asking this?

M:It matters because if they die prematurely it wouldn’t serve the intended purpose. I’m asking because I don’t know what you believe. If, as you say, God must work now to prevent His character from causing sinners to die, it begs the question – How does He prevent them from reaping the results of sin?

M: Do you think it is necessary for God to subject the wicked to a full, unveiled, unrestricted revelation of His character for them to suffer and die?

T: Anyway, to answer your question, it's not necessary for God to do anything specific to cause the wicked to suffer and die.

M:I hear you saying God will do nothing that will result in them suffering and dying. Is that what you believe?

I could believe you if God left them dead in the grave.

But He doesn’t. Instead, He resurrects them, forces them to revisit their sins, prevents them from dying prematurely, and then distracts them from killing each other by raining down and raising up fire, at which point they suffer in proportion and in duration to their sinfulness.

M: I asked, “If it were possible to hide from God in judgment, would evil men and angels avoid suffering and death?” To which you responded, “They could for that cause . . .” I assumed the “cause” you were referring to was God. That is, if the presence of God were the only cause of suffering and death, then, if it were it possible to hide from Him, suffering and death could be avoided.

T: "So long as sin exists, suffering and death are inevitable." The problem isn't God.

M:I hear you saying neither the character of God nor the radiant firelight of His person and presence will cause them to suffer or to die. Is that what you believe?

M: Do you think sin is the only thing that causes suffering and death in judgment?

T: Whether in the judgment or not, all suffering and death is the result of sin.

M:I hear you saying neither the character of God nor the radiant firelight of His person and presence will cause them to suffer or to die. Is that what you believe?

M: When do you think God’s character gives life to the righteous? Do you think it is what resurrects them? Or, do you think it gives them life afterward? If so, how does it differ from the life they already have?

T: "He who has the Son, has life." This happens when one believes. Eternal life starts before the resurrection.

M:If they are already alive, why, then, is it necessary for God to resurrect them?

Does the same thing apply to the death of the wicked? That is, since they’re dead, why is it necessary for God to resurrect them?

Again, in what sense does the fire of God’s glory give life to the righteous and take life from the wicked?

M: Do you think it is necessary for God to cause their heart to beat 1) during judgment, and 2) after judgment? Do you think they would die if He didn’t? And, do you think they die because God stops causing their heart to beat?

T: MM, these questions don't make sense to me. For example, "Do you think they would die if He didn’t?" It sounds from this question that you are thinking after the resurrection human beings won't have hearts that beat? Or you have some doubt about this? Am I understanding you correctly?

M:I’m trying to figure out the cause of death.

Does sin cause their heart to stop beating, their minds to stop thinking, their lungs to stop breathing, or what? From this I can work backward and ascertain what God does to prevent them from reaping the results of sin now and in judgment. Also, if sinners come out of the grave in the same state they entered it, what about the ones who died of organ failure? How can those same organs support life in judgment? Jesus was perfectly healthy, nevertheless, His frail and fragile frame required supernatural aid to live long enough to accomplish His work on the cross. Why do you think resurrected sinners, especially those who have diseased and dilapidated organs, will be able to live long enough to revisit millions of sins, one at a time, and suffer like Jesus did? Will God keep them alive supernaturally?

“I saw a throne, and on it sat the Father and the Son. I gazed on Jesus' countenance and admired His lovely person. The Father's person I could not behold, for a cloud of glorious light covered Him. I asked Jesus if His Father had a form like Himself. He said He had, but I could not behold it, for said He, "If you should once behold the glory of His person, you would cease to exist." {EW 54.2}

M: Earlier you said the “form” of the Father, in the passage above, refers to the attributes of His character. Beholding His character, you said, would have caused Ellen to die.

T: Please quote what I wrote.

M: Three things:

1. “He who contemplates God's glory and infinite love, will have humble views of himself, but by beholding the character of God, he will be changed into His divine image. {TMK 175.4}

M: Why do you think beholding His “form” would have killed her?

2. “By beholding the character of Christ you will become changed into His likeness. {AG 299.2}

M: Why didn’t beholding the “form” of Jesus kill her?

3. “He sent His Son into the world, that through His taking the human form and nature, humanity and divinity combined in Him would elevate man in the scale of moral value with God. {1SM 340.3} “It was in the order of God that Christ should take upon himself the form and nature of fallen man . . . {4aSG 115.3}

M: If, as you say, “form” means “character”, then, according to these passages, Jesus took the sinful character of man.

T: I'm not understanding your questions. They seem to be based on what look to me to be funny assumptions. Perhaps you could quote what I wrote, and I could comment on that.