Tom, are you saying "inbred sin" refers to sinning?

Here's a helpful quote:

"There are thoughts and feelings suggested and aroused by Satan that annoy even the best of men; but if they are not cherished, if they are repulsed as hateful, the soul is not contaminated with guilt, and no other is defiled by their influence. (RH 3-27-1888)

Just time for a quickie....


I believe it is similar to the distinction between perfection IN Christ and perfection LIKE Christ. A similar distinction is found between sinned IN Adam and sinned LIKE Adam.

The Christian's perfection/sinlessness is IN Christ or it is LIKE Christ. I go with IN Christ.

In such a scenario of failed temptation, does the tempter, Satan in this case, remain guiltless if his temptation was repulsed?

I'll stay away from "sinful flesh natures" since I'm still not sure we have a common definition of it, even after all these years. But I will say that I believe people are guilty of sinning if they are selfish, whether or not that selfishness surfaces.


Again, I'll avoid "sinless flesh natures."

I believe that when the 144k are sealed, their physical natures will still be fallen. However, their spiritual natures have been restored to holiness, though not necessarily exactly like Christ's. Does that answer your question?


The fallen physical nature has never been the cause of our need of a mediator. It is our sin - our selfishness - that separates us from God, requiring a Mediator to bridge the gap. When that sin is purged, then there's no more need of a Mediator. That's one view, anyway.

Another view is that Christ has always been the Mediator between God and creatures. To us, He's Jesus of Nazareth - one of us, but different. To the angels, He was Michael the Archangel - one of them, but different. But that's a whole 'nother thread.

OK. So the corruption in 1SM - "corrupt channels of humanity" - is not referring to sinful flesh. I can go for that.

Do you have any idea about what it is referring to? What kind of corruption does the true believer have now that the 144k will not have while standing before God without a Mediator?

The answer to that, BTW, will go far toward answering MM's question re: the converted Christian committing sins of ignorance.

Doesn’t it have to do with imputed versus imparted righteousness? Ellen wrote, “[The Lord] expects from us the perfection which Christ revealed in His humanity. {CG 477.1} You seem to be saying “the perfection which Christ revealed in His humanity” is stained with sin when revealed through believers. If so, why?


No. Why do you ask? Are you assuming Satan's guilt implies we are guilty because we possess a nature that temnpts us from within?


Are they selfish? Also, what is an example of subsurface selfishness?


Does God count them guilty of sin because they possess fallen physical natures? Also, are restored holy spiritual natures available now? And, in what sense are they different than Jesus’?


Does this mean God does not count us guilty of sin because we possess fallen physical natures?


Mediation does not bridge unconfessed sins. Atonement accommodates sins confessed and pardoned. What is the origin and source of “our selfishness”? Are we required to regularly repent of it? Is it volitional sin? And, how and when is it purged?

PS – Do you go along with the people who argue sin is a state of being and a state of thinking, speaking, and doing, and that we can be free of the latter but not free of the former?

Here's another quote to consider:
Though Paul had not been rejecting light - he was "strictly conscientious in his work of persecuting the saints" - he was still guilty.

Ignorance, conscientiousness, sincerity are not sufficient to completely shield the sinner from the effects of sin and restore him to God's standard. Only Christ's blood and righteousness can do that.

I believe it does. I also believe that our perfection is imputed - ours only as given to us by Jesus. The righteousness that is imparted to us can never equal the Pattern.


Christ's perfection is stained when revealed through believers. That sounds about right. Here's why I believe that:
Christ's righteousness is defiled when it passes through the corrupt channels of humanity. As the rest of the oft-quoted paragraph says, it needs Christ's cleansing blood in order to be acceptable to God. We're back to imputed righteousness again.

That, I believe, is a fundamental point of the Gospel. The sinner is incapable of offering to God what He requires. And no matter how much better he gets, he still falls short of God's glory. The only way to meet God's requirements is to offer to God the solution that He Himself gave - Himself. As Abraham said, God will provide Himself a sacrifice. The best the sinner can do in that transaction is to accept what God is offering him.

True, more than this, He changes the heart. That's another fundamental point of the Gospel. But do not confuse a changed heart with the infinite sacrifice that the broken law demands. An unfallen angel could not suffice, much less a sinful man. Only God could atone.

When I come home from work, my son sometimes offers me something he had made during the day, perhaps a toy car made from his tinkertoys, using the concepts and skills I had taught him to construct a durable structure. While he offers it as his best work, and I accept it gladly, he is not foolish enough to think that it will actually meet my needs as a vehicle. His offering is accepted, not because it meets the absolute standard, but because of the completeness of his devotion. When I need a real vehicle, I will require much more engineering than my 8-year-old can muster.

I agree with much of the above post.
But some of the previous posts-- according to the reasoning, Adam's children, if they chose to follow God -- let's say Enoch as example,-- didn't need a Savior?

Too much of the "no mediator" after propation-- the premise that I see underlying this is -- if we just get our past sins confessed and forgiven and start living perfectly we are capable (with Christ's help) to develop perfect righteousness (perfect merits) that can stand in the presence of a holy God without a mediator applying His merits.

Yet this is denied when I point it out, but then the discussion goes right back to not needing Christ's merits any longer "to bridge the gap" so then it must mean standing in our own merits.

In other words -- the message some of these posts are sending is "living without a Mediator" means presenting our own merits as "good enought" because Christ's merits are no longer available.

But -- there is another view.
Christ seals us WITH HIS MERITS.

Once probation closes there is no more turning from sin to God. We must make that choice previously. We must confess all sins and give them up surrendering self to Christ completely in order to be covered by His righteousness, but it is only by Christ's righteousness and perfection, not our own that we merit anything. It is still Christ's righteousness that covers our imperfections and gives us Godly perfection.