I am somewhat confused by your posts.

Earlier you wrote (and I agree)

MM: "Actually, I believe sin the transgression of the law, and that the law encompasses our thoughts, feelings, motives, words, and deeds. Nothing is overlooked.


But in your last post it appears you are saying that only sins of commission are counted against people and they alone need Christ's atonement!

You wrote:
MM: Also, you might be interested to learn I do not believe "inbred sin" (sinful flesh) counts against us in judgment. It does not require atonement because it is not a commission of sin. Character, not nature, determines our eternal destiny in judgment.



Character involves far more than not committing outright sin. It encompases our thoughts, feelings, motives as well as our words and deeds.

It is on this bases that I say our best righteousness, our best obedience is still stained with thoughts and feelings and motives that aren't 100% pure and holy.

We never reach a point where we can present our own righteousness as perfect enough to stand before God. We are totally dependant upon Christ's righteousness. (That's not to say we shouldn't strive for holiness in Christ, God's followers need to reach a point where they would rather die than sin and bring dishonor to God)

But inbred sin, is still sin.

WE need to confess that as well and have it covered with Christ's atonement!

If it's not covered by Christ's atonement we can't stand before the awesome Holiness of God.

"God will be better glorified if we confess the secret, inbred corruption of the heart to Jesus....{FLB 128.4}

"We may have the peace which passeth understanding; but it will cost us battles with the powers of darkness, struggles severe against selfishness and inbred sin. {LHU 98.5}

There will be battles with the powers of darkness, severe struggles against selfishness and inbred sin. {BEcho, June 25, 1894 par. 5}

ded, I mostly agree with what you wrote. In particular:



I think it would be very dangerous to stray from this attitude.

However, I question your comment regarding "inbred sin." Actually, I agree with what you wrote, but this would be with the understanding that "inbred sin" has to do with sins we actually commit, not our heredity. For example:



it seems to me very clear this isn't dealing with our heredity.

The real question I have is, our heredity is completely beyond our choice. We can no more control our inherited characteristics in regards to our fallen flesh than any other characteristic we've inherited. What do we have to confess?

I'm assuming, in asking this question, that you are understanding "inbred sin" to mean our sinful, or fallen, flesh. But perhaps you have something else in mind, and, if so, we are probably in agreement regarding this point as well.

As with the "new truths will be revealed in the Judgment" concept, I'm talking about people, not angels.


Do you take that to mean that if I commit a sin, not knowing it is a sin, there is no sin and I don't need Christ's atonement for it? If so, that would mean there is no such thing as a sin of ignorance, but merely ignorance. That would also mean that had God not shed any light upon us, we would all be sinless.

I don't think that quote is universally applicable. If it was, Jesus was pretty mean for telling the disciples to teach people, since the world could have been sinless ignoramuses instead.

What makes you so sure? Your quote does not mention the corruption->incorruption transformation. Are you sure that we can "stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator" while still being corrupt, and survive?

I lean more toward the idea that our corruption, especially the inbred corruption of the heart, will have to be done away with first.

Because Christ hasn't come yet. Corruption puts in incorruption is referring to the time Christ comes, which is when the righteous receive new bodies.



I said that. I was making the point that the 144,000 will stand before God without a Mediator before Christ comes, while still in sinful flesh. Therefore it cannot be sinful flesh which is being referred to in the 1SM quote (that speaks of the prayers of the saints needing to be cleansed because of the corruption of those praying), since Christ has finished His work of intercession.



The phrase "corruption puts on incorruption" is referring to the flesh; that is, to the receiving of a resurrection body. Saying "while still being corrupt" is a terribly misleading way to express this thought, IMO. From the paragraph quoted we read:



This speaks of sin being put of work, of a special work of purification. It is sin which pollutes. In order to stand before God without a mediator, it is necessary that sin be put away. But the 144,000 will still have sinful flesh. When Christ ceases His mediatorial work, until He comes to the earth, is not instantaneous.

I believe character is the result of repetitious thoughts, feelings, motives, words, and deeds. We must consciously, repetitiously dwell on or act on them to cultivate corresponding traits of character. The law looks at the results (character) not at the temptations to indulge sinful thoughts, feelings, motives, words, and deeds, to be unlike Jesus.

Being tempted from within to be unlike Jesus, to indulge unholy thoughts, feelings, motives, words, and deeds is not a sin. All temptations begin as unholy thoughts and feelings. It is never a sin to be tempted. It doesn’t matter if it originates within (sinful flesh) or without (evil angels), it is not a sin to be tempted. We are counted guilty of sinning if and when we indulge temptation. Having sinful flesh nature is not the same thing as sinning.

Also, I agree with Tom. “I don't think ‘righteousness and true holiness’ is ever stained with sin. These are antonyms.” The righteous results of combining humanity and divinity is “holy and without blame”, “without spot, and blameless”. Of course, this is not to say they aren’t ignorantly sinning. They may very well be. For example, born-again believers might keep Sunday holy, and buy and sell and work on the Sabbath not knowing they are breaking the law. But this does not mean the “righteousness and true holiness” they do experience is stained with sin.

You wrote, "Character involves far more than not committing outright sin. It encompasses our thoughts, feelings, motives as well as our words and deeds." Again, I believe sinful, cultivated traits of character are the result of repetitious choices. Each trait is the result of consciously choosing to indulge corresponding thoughts, feelings, motives, words, and actions. Indulging unholy thoughts and feelings and their resulting traits of character is outright sinning the same as indulging unholy words and actions. Do you agree?

Arnold, do you believe people are guilty of sinning because they have sinful flesh natures that tempt them from within to be unlike Jesus?

And, do you believe the 144,000 will receive sinless flesh natures when they are numbered and sealed, and that this accounts for why they can stand before God without a mediator?

Yes, I agree.
However, feelings and motives can't just be dismissed as easily as all that.


Jesus actually sought those who knew they were imperfect, those cast out by others who thought themselves perfect. Those who felt they were no longer sinners felt no need for Jesus' ministry. They were following precise habits and well disciplined, repetitious choices, that made them seem quite holy in the people's eyes as well as in their own self estimation.

I fully believe we should humbly walk with Christ in obedience, hour by hour, day by day, at all times, growing in grace and character. It's this thinking that our doings are perfectly sinless that I have problems with.

I understand inbred sin to be more than "fallen flesh" .
Everyone is born with "fallen flesh" that's what Adam gave us all. But consider that by the time a child is five (or so) they have already developed these propensities into established habits.

By the time a child reaches the age of accountablity all these inbred sins are his -- established and flourishing -- pounded into his character with great repitition.
Seems there is plenty to confess.

True, we must labor, agonize, wrestle, and strive to stay connected to Christ so that we can continue to grow in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit. There is nothing easy about subjecting our internal foes, our inherited tendencies to wrong, to a sanctified will and mind.


I'm having a hard time understanding what you're saying. Seems like you're saying everything they think, say, and do is stained with sin. If so, how can you refer to it as humbly walking with Jesus in obedience?


Why do you have a problem with believing the righteous results of divinity and humanity combined are perfectly sinless? I agree with you people who are in such a state are the last to know it, but it doesn't mean they are unholy or imperfect. Like Jesus, they are pure. "And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." Like Jesus, they are righteous. "He that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous." In light of what John said, I don't see how you can say, "They are not pure like Jesus. They are not righteous like Jesus." Do you see what I mean?