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Re: Does the Bible envision converted Christians committing sins of ignorance? [Re: Mountain Man] #121754
11/22/09 04:24 PM
11/22/09 04:24 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Please know your heavenly Father smiles upon you when you're motives are right. It doesn't matter to Him if your fruit is immature so long as you are growing and your motives are right. You and your words and works are perfect in His sight when you're motives are right.

We and our words and works are perfect in His sight not just because our motives are right, but because Jesus' imputed righteousness is covering them.

The forgiveness of sin is promised to him who repents and believes; the crown of life will be the reward of him who is faithful to the end. We may grow in grace by improving through the grace we already have. We are to keep ourselves unspotted from the world, if we would be found blameless in the day of God. Faith and works go hand in hand, they act harmoniously in the work of overcoming. Works without faith are dead, and faith without works is dead. Works will never save us; it is the merit of Christ that will avail in our behalf. Through faith in Him, Christ will make all our imperfect efforts acceptable to God. The faith we are required to have is not a do-nothing faith; saving faith is that which works by love, and purifies the soul. He who will lift up holy hands to God without wrath and doubting, will walk intelligently in the way of God's commandments. {NL 36.1}

Jesus loves His children, even if they err. They belong to Jesus and we are to treat them as the purchase of the blood of Jesus Christ. Any unreasonable course pursued toward them is written in the books as against Jesus Christ. He keeps His eye upon them, and when they do their best, calling upon God for His help, be assured the service will be accepted, although imperfect. Jesus is perfect. Christ's righteousness is imputed unto them, and He will say, Take away the filthy garments from him, and clothe him with change of raiment. Jesus makes up for our unavoidable deficiencies. Where Christians are faithful to each other, true and loyal to the Captain of the Lord's host, never betraying trusts into the enemy's hands, they will be transformed into Christ's character. Jesus will abide in their hearts by faith.--Letter 17a, 1891, p. 8. (To Brother and Sister Ings, and Elder Fulton, Nov. 18, 1891.)

By thus communicating truth to others, the worker for Christ obtains a clearer view of the abundant provisions made for all, of the sufficiency of the grace of Christ for every time of conflict, sorrow, and trial. Through the mysterious plan of redemption, grace has been provided, so that the imperfect work of the human agent may be accepted in the name of Jesus our Advocate. Man has little power, and can accomplish but a small work at his very best. . . . God is omnipotent, and at every point where we need divine help and seek for it in sincerity, it will be given. God has pledged His word that His grace will be sufficient for you in your greatest necessity, in your sorest distress. Christ will be to you a present help if you will appropriate His grace. {AG 260.3, 4}

Re: Does the Bible envision converted Christians committing sins of ignorance? [Re: Rosangela] #121765
11/23/09 12:54 AM
11/23/09 12:54 AM
dedication  Online Content
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,705
Canada
Originally Posted By: Rosangela

We and our words and works are perfect in His sight not just because our motives are right, but because Jesus' imputed righteousness is covering them.

The forgiveness of sin is promised to him who repents and believes; the crown of life will be the reward of him who is faithful to the end. We may grow in grace by improving through the grace we already have. We are to keep ourselves unspotted from the world, if we would be found blameless in the day of God. Faith and works go hand in hand, they act harmoniously in the work of overcoming. Works without faith are dead, and faith without works is dead. Works will never save us; it is the merit of Christ that will avail in our behalf. Through faith in Him, Christ will make all our imperfect efforts acceptable to God. The faith we are required to have is not a do-nothing faith; saving faith is that which works by love, and purifies the soul. He who will lift up holy hands to God without wrath and doubting, will walk intelligently in the way of God's commandments. {NL 36.1}

Jesus loves His children, even if they err. They belong to Jesus and we are to treat them as the purchase of the blood of Jesus Christ. Any unreasonable course pursued toward them is written in the books as against Jesus Christ. He keeps His eye upon them, and when they do their best, calling upon God for His help, be assured the service will be accepted, although imperfect. Jesus is perfect. Christ's righteousness is imputed unto them, and He will say, Take away the filthy garments from him, and clothe him with change of raiment. Jesus makes up for our unavoidable deficiencies. Where Christians are faithful to each other, true and loyal to the Captain of the Lord's host, never betraying trusts into the enemy's hands, they will be transformed into Christ's character. Jesus will abide in their hearts by faith.--Letter 17a, 1891, p. 8. (To Brother and Sister Ings, and Elder Fulton, Nov. 18, 1891.)

By thus communicating truth to others, the worker for Christ obtains a clearer view of the abundant provisions made for all, of the sufficiency of the grace of Christ for every time of conflict, sorrow, and trial. Through the mysterious plan of redemption, grace has been provided, so that the imperfect work of the human agent may be accepted in the name of Jesus our Advocate. Man has little power, and can accomplish but a small work at his very best. . . . God is omnipotent, and at every point where we need divine help and seek for it in sincerity, it will be given. God has pledged His word that His grace will be sufficient for you in your greatest necessity, in your sorest distress. Christ will be to you a present help if you will appropriate His grace. {AG 260.3, 4}



Amen, Roseangela

It is Christ's perfect righteousness that makes us perfect, not anything we do ourselves.
Our part is to believe, surrender self, and walk in obedience with Him through every hour of the day.

Re: Does the Bible envision converted Christians committing sins of ignorance? [Re: Rosangela] #121766
11/23/09 12:56 AM
11/23/09 12:56 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Rosangela, "imperfect" does not mean "a form of sinning". Do you agree? The difference between seed and fruit is not sin. Do you agree?

Re: Does the Bible envision converted Christians committing sins of ignorance? [Re: Mountain Man] #121767
11/23/09 12:58 AM
11/23/09 12:58 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Dedication, in what sense do you think the Bible envisions believers sinning ignorantly? At what point do you think they cease sinning?

Re: Does the Bible envision converted Christians committing sins of ignorance? [Re: Mountain Man] #121775
11/23/09 03:47 PM
11/23/09 03:47 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: dedication
T:The real question I have is, our heredity is completely beyond our choice. We can no more control our inherited characteristics in regards to our fallen flesh than any other characteristic we've inherited. What do we have to confess?

I'm assuming, in asking this question, that you are understanding "inbred sin" to mean our sinful, or fallen, flesh. But perhaps you have something else in mind, and, if so, we are probably in agreement regarding this point as well.


d:I understand inbred sin to be more than "fallen flesh" .
Everyone is born with "fallen flesh" that's what Adam gave us all. But consider that by the time a child is five (or so) they have already developed these propensities into established habits.

By the time a child reaches the age of accountablity all these inbred sins are his -- established and flourishing -- pounded into his character with great repitition.
Seems there is plenty to confess.


Ok, if you consider "inbred sin" so include actual sinning, what you wrote makes sense to me.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Does the Bible envision converted Christians committing sins of ignorance? [Re: Mountain Man] #121779
11/23/09 04:15 PM
11/23/09 04:15 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Rosangela, "imperfect" does not mean "a form of sinning". Do you agree?

Mike, do you think anything Adam did before he sinned was imperfect? Was his obedience imperfect? Were his prayers imperfect? Was his praise imperfect?

Re: Does the Bible envision converted Christians committing sins of ignorance? [Re: Mountain Man] #121788
11/24/09 03:58 AM
11/24/09 03:58 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
"imperfect" does not mean "a form of sinning".

It depends on what is imperfect. Having an imperfect jump shot is not sin. However, we need to understand that imperfection of character is sin. {COL 330.2}


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Does the Bible envision converted Christians committing sins of ignorance? [Re: asygo] #121791
11/24/09 10:03 AM
11/24/09 10:03 AM
dedication  Online Content
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,705
Canada




"And be found in Him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith." Philippians 3:9.



In the above verse Paul is talking about his hope of resurrection, he does not want his own righteousness. He wants to have Christ's righteousness. Certainly Paul had lived a life closely following Christ's pattern and grown into full sanctification. Paul does not see it that way at all. At that point (at the end of his life) he still does not want his own righteousness, he wants Christ's righteousness.

Christ's righteousness is a gift!





Quote:
"You are powerless to do good, and cannot better your condition. Apart from Christ we have no merit, no righteousness. Our sinfulness, our weakness, our human imperfection makes it impossible that we should appear before God unless we are clothed in Christ's spotless righteousness. 1SM 333.
"The righteousness of Christ is presented as a free gift to the sinner if he will accept it. He has nothing of his own but what is tainted and corrupted, polluted with sin, utterly repulsive to a pure and holy God. Only through the righteous character of Jesus Christ can man come nigh to God." 1SM 342.
"In Him [Christ], is our hope, our justification, our righteousness." 1SM 351.


Why then does the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy teach us to copy the Pattern?

Christ is the pattern of the standard of righteousness. By walking with Him in humble obedience daily, we walk by that standard, because He is the standard. He is the goal of righteousness.

He is also how righteousness is achieved. The method by which Christ lived that righteous life was by perfect faith and trust in His Father. And if we live by faith in Christ, walking daily with Him, we live righteously. We, by faith, receive righteousness by receiving Him.

Re: Does the Bible envision converted Christians committing sins of ignorance? [Re: Rosangela] #121796
11/24/09 03:24 PM
11/24/09 03:24 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
M: Rosangela, "imperfect" does not mean "a form of sinning". Do you agree?

R: Mike, do you think anything Adam did before he sinned was imperfect? Was his obedience imperfect? Were his prayers imperfect? Was his praise imperfect?

Not imperfect in the sense it was "a form of sinning". It was imperfect in the sense it was immature. In fact, in the new earth, anything we do is imperfect in the sense it is not as mature as it will be a million years later. Everything is relative. When compared to something more mature it is imperfect. But just because something will be better in future it does not mean it is "a form of sinning" now.

Where in the Bible is this idea taught, that is, that everything we think, say, and do, while abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature, is corrupted and sin stained, a "form of sinning"? If it isn't in the Bible is it possible you are misinterpreting what Ellen wrote?

Re: Does the Bible envision converted Christians committing sins of ignorance? [Re: asygo] #121798
11/24/09 03:39 PM
11/24/09 03:39 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
M: "imperfect" does not mean "a form of sinning".

A: It depends on what is imperfect. Having an imperfect jump shot is not sin. However, we need to understand that imperfection of character is sin. {COL 330.2}

It depends on whether or not the believer is still cultivating sinful character by acting out the unholy thoughts, feelings, words, and deeds that resulted in the formation of sinful traits of character. Character, as you know, is the result of repetitious thoughts, words, and deeds.

Are we guilty of sinning if, in Christ, we crucify our sinful traits of character, and if, while abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature, we subdue our inherited tendencies to wrong and are daily growing in grace and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit? Do our crucified traits of character count against us now or in judgment?

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