Saying that sin punishes the wicked is more what I was taking issue, in terms of your making it sound like sin were a sentient being. Normal English speech allows for the construction "sin kills the wicked." For example, "drunk driving kills" or "speeding kills." Implicit is the idea that there is a sentient being doing the drunk driving, or the speeding.



You're reasoning here is that because wind is the product of other factors, sin must be also? I'm not following your train of thought here.



No, I disagree with this. It's not the same penalty as the second death, but it's a penalty.



Not really. At least, this isn't the way I would put it. I would say that if God had not intervened, man would have perished immediately (as would have Satan and his followers). For man it was possible to return to God, by beholding God's love and character, so God took steps to make this possible. Both the suffering of this life, and the first death, as well as the suffering in the afterlife and the second death, are the results of sin. As the SOP puts it, Satan is the author of sin and all its results. All these things, the suffering of this life and the afterlife, the first death, and the second death, are things of which Satan is the author.

God is not responsible for any of these things.



God punishes sinners by given them the results of their choice (DA 764). Regarding sin punishing and destroying sinners, that sounds as if you're considering sin to be a sentient being, as I've pointed out several times. Regarding cause and consequence, a consequence is the result of a cause. So one can say death is the inevitable result (or consequence) of sin, or sin inevitably causes death, and these are equivalent.

Here's something from the 1888 site regarding this question:





I don't know what you mean by "symbolic life". I said "to know God is eternal life." I would think this is clear. By death I meant everlasting death, in contrast to everlasting life.



I don't know what more to say, MM. I've written long posts and addressed this question many times, and quoted others. You're free to refer to these things.



Some may be blind, so when you say "behold God's form" do you mean physically? If so, no. Similarly beholding God's character isn't something one does with one's eyes but with one's mind. Regarding suffering, I've already said many times that it's not necessary for the wicked to behold God's character in order to suffer. Wherever there is sin there is suffering. Also I didn't say the character of God will slay the wicked. I quoted from the SOP. You're misquoting her and me here. She (and I) said "the light of the glory of God" by which she meant the revelation of God's character. If by saying "God's character will slay the wicked" this is what you mean then OK, but I think it's better if you stay with words that have actually been said, *especially* when a given misquote has already been pointed out to you.



You've asked this several times. I've said I disagree with your view, which is merely physical and doesn't take into account the real issues, which are spiritual ones. I've also said that what God does is not leave the wicked to receive the results of their choice, as explained in DA 764, which I've quoted a number of times in response to this very question.



I've already dealt with the last part of this. Regarding that obedience to the law gives life, and disobedience leads to death, this is Scripture. "The soul that sins shall die." "And sin, when it is finished, brings forth death." "Sin pays its wages: death". "He who through faith is righteous shall live" (to be righteous is to obey the law).



In Gethsemane we know Jesus would have died had not God intervened. I'm not aware of any evidence that God did this at Calvary as well.



I'm not sure what you're asking here, but it sounds the same as the question you asked right before this one.



Same answer.

Tom, I believe "the light of the glory of God . . . will slay the wicked" means the literal light radiating from God's person will cause the wicked to suffer according to their sinfulness and will end in eternal death. You, on the other hand, think it refers to "the revelation of God's character". But you have failed to explain why and how you think it will "slay the wicked", how and why it will cause suffering AND end in eternal death.

MM, you've asked this a number of times, and I've explained it a number of times, and I've also mentioned a number of times that the explanation is in the passage that contains the sentence. That is, DA 107-108 explains it.

I agree with the idea that sin, at least from the sinner's perspective, is not primarily a legal problem, but a problem with the sinner being damaged. I agree with the idea that God set up the universe such that sin and death come as a package. I agree that God is our friend.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head. There may be others. And some of these things I mentioned might not be his. In any case, I agree with them.

Ok. Thanks, Arnold.

Ellen wrote, To sin, wherever found, 'our God is a consuming fire.' The glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked.

What precisely do you believe will slay, destroy, consume the wicked?

Also, what does "light" mean in the following passage: He says, "A body hast Thou prepared Me." Had He appeared with the glory that was His with the Father before the world was, we could not have endured the light of His presence. That we might behold it and not be destroyed, the manifestation of His glory was shrouded. His divinity was veiled with humanity, -- the invisible glory in the visible human form. {DA 23.1}

Read the passages I suggested, namely DA 107-108, and DA 764. I've also quoted from Ty Gibson on this subject.

You write "at least from the sinner's perspective." If this means that it's only from the sinner's perspective, but not from God's, then this means that it's not really true that sin is primarily a problem with the sinner being damaged, since it is God's perspective that corresponds to reality.



I don't think this is a Maxwell idea. I think his idea is that sin leads to death because of what it is by nature. In any universe, sin would lead to death. It's not because God set things up in some special way.



Good! God is also the friend of the wicked. This is something that Maxwell emphasizes. He says, "You know, even God’s enemies have no need to be afraid of Him." (This concept profoundly impacted me when I first heard it from him. This is a reason I don't believe God will set people on fire to make them suffer. God's enemies would certainly have reason to fear Him if He did that!)



If you think of any others, I'd be interested.

Tom, all I know is what you posted - "I didn't say the character of God will slay the wicked."

Here's an explanation by A. Graham Maxwell's of the meaning of Christ's death. It involves many of the themes we've been discussing in this thread, so I'm posting it here.

“You remember that when Jesus answered questions, He often went back to the beginning, which always takes a little time. But you remember when they brought up the question of divorce, He said, Well, if you have the time, let Me go back to the beginning. In the beginning it was not so, and so on. And with this most serious of all questions, and the costly answer, that makes it possible for the universe, the whole vast universe, to be secure for eternity, we need to go back to the beginning always. In the beginning God spoke those terrible words, ‘In the day you eat thereof, you will die.’ Now, if Satan is right, if God has lied to us, that is the end of trust. But if God really meant it when He said, ‘You will die,’ how will we die? Will He kill us? In the day you eat thereof, I will kill you. Is that the way our Father runs His family? Obey Me, or I will kill you.”

“I thought God wanted love and friendship. Is it love Me, or I will kill you?”

“If the soul is mortal, how long will the mortal soul live in the fierce final fires? You die quickly in fire. How is it that some will live longer in the fire, and you know the verses—Luke 12:47,48. Some have more stripes than others. Do you know what this means? If God is the executioner, He will have to perform a miracle to keep you from dying prematurely from shock or suffocation in the flames, and the message is, Love Me, accept Me, or I will torture you in the flames. And you will never get a friend that way. We will all turn into fearful, trembling servants. And He doesn’t want that. Do you know what torture is? In any dictionary? The worst kind of torture is inflicting exquisite pain before execution. Do you think our God will do that? I have read in books that even is the loving thing to do.”

“Be my friend, or I will torture you to death, but I won’t torture you one minute longer than you deserve. Oh, I love that.”

“So, I stand at the foot of the cross, and I say, Jesus, hanging there on the cross, what did You mean when You said, Love and obey Me or you will die? And Jesus could reply, I am showing you right now. What was He showing them? As you read on through the 66 books, there are so many references to God’s wrath and His anger, some day to be poured out without mixture on the rejecters of His love, especially in the third angel’s message. What is this wrath? Is it love and obey me, or in the fury of my wrath I will destroy you?”

“I remember more than forty years ago I determined I had to work that out. I searched all through the Bible for the meaning, and most helpful was the book of Romans. In Romans 1:24, 26, 28, God’s wrath is clearly described as His turning away in loving disappointment from those who do not want Him anyway, thus leaving them and giving them up and handing them over to reap the awful consequences.”

“And that wasn’t new with Paul. It’s all through Hosea, chapter 11. God says, My people are bent on leaving Me. I’ll have to let them go. But how can I give you up? How can I let you go? Many other places like that.”

“Now, was God’s wrath poured out on His Son? Well, let me ask you, Did He give Him up? Did He let Him go? Romans 4:25, I am sorry some versions say He was put to death for our transgressions. There is not a word in the Greek about being put to death. It is exactly the same word as in Romans 1:24, 26, 28. He was given up. He was handed over for our transgressions. Yes, the wrath of God was poured out on His Son, as it will be poured out on unsavable sinners at the end.”

“What was Jesus' cry on the cross? Why are you torturing Me to death? No, Why have you given Me up?”

“If you want to know how the sinner will die, go to the cross, watch Jesus die, and hear His sad cry, Why have you given Me up? Why have you let Me go? It would be better to come even earlier to Gethsemane, where Jesus began to experience the sinner’s separation from the Father. His unity with the Father breaking up. And Jesus fell dying to the ground. Did the Father kill His Son? He didn’t even touch Him. And the angels looking on got the costly answer to their questions. Does sin result in death? Indeed it does. But is it the result of God torturing us to death? He never touched His Son.”

“Now, that makes sense to me. God doesn’t say, Love Me, or I will kill you. He says what we even say to each other. Love Me, or what else can I do but let you go. But when God says, I will have to let you go, we will die. But God says, I won’t let you go easily. I’ll try everything first. I’ll thunder on Sinai to get your attention. I’ll send she-bears to inspire a little reverence, because if you don’t respect Me, you won’t listen, and I can’t help you. I’ll even come Myself and show you how terrible is the consequence of sin, and if that doesn’t win you, what else can I do but sadly give you up, and we mortals cannot live apart from God. Left to our rebellious selves, we will die.”

“The angels watched Gethsemane. But the three disciples chosen to witness that costly event slept through the whole meeting. So the angel strengthened Jesus to go out to Calvary and go through it all over again. Besides, there was another question to be answered. Why, dear God, is it so important that we understand all of this? You are the sovereign Creator. You have the right to govern your universe any way you wish. No one would dare question your right to give orders and expect submission to your every command. Nor would anyone dare to question your right to destroy those who are disobedient. And that is just the point. God has replied, I don’t want you just to be My servants. I want you to be My friends. I could easily have destroyed Satan when he rebelled, but then you would have served Me from fear—not friendship. Even if I had simply let him go, he would have died, just as Jesus has demonstrated. But the angels, never having seen death, would have assumed that the Lifegiver had killed him, and they would have served Him from fear, just the same.”

“And so I hear God saying, Oh, My children throughout the universe, I want you to understand that the obedience that springs from fear can produce the character of a rebel. Even as you fearfully obey Me, you will be turning against Me. Now, please go out to Calvary and see that demonstrated. And this is the one thing that is almost always left out of the explanation of why Jesus has had to die. And why it is a terrible mistake, as you may hear sometimes, to call this explanation the moral influence theory. This is an awesome explanation.”